Like a trophy

74 comments

1. Relative to the red cards, seems to me basically both things are true. We’ve got a player who is card-prone(Xhaka, and had Luiz), and we’ve got a few others that have done stupid things. Those are things in Arsenal’s control to correct and it’s on Arteta to do so.
   However, it also feels to me like we’re paying a price for being the “fancy London team full of small skilled foreigners”. The Burnleys and Stokes of the world tackle hard, but they are expected to do so, thus when a really hard tackle comes in, there’s less deviation from the norm. On the other hand, we commit fewer fouls and generally play less rough, so the hard fouls are more of a deviation and get more cards.

   1. “fancy London team full of small skilled foreigners”

      this really doesn’t make sense in the context of all the other London teams who are equally small, skilled, and have even more foreigners.

      It’s possible that we just have a lot of players who lose their rag.

      1. That’s true currently, but wasn’t true 15-20 years ago, when it seems to me that this thinking was established. The idea that Arsenal was a bunch of soft and skill players seems to me to have been established in the early/mid-Wenger years, which is also when we probably had the most foreign players in the league (even though players such as Bergkamp and Vieira were pretty tough).
         You hear people saying “Arsenal don’t like players up at ’em”. We’ve been viewed as soft for years. People don’t say that about Chelsea or Spurs, even though the current team compositions and styles aren’t too different.
         And yes, we also have players that lose their rag too easily (the Martinelli incident was that for sure). I just don’t think it’s completely that.

      2. Every away match, the home crowd will chant “same old arsenal, always cheating”. To the best of my knowledge, no other team gets this. Biases don’t have to make sense to be persistent (quite the opposite, I’d say). For example, there’s a bias against employing women in academic science roles. This bias persists *even if the employer is female*. I think there’s a clear bias at work here – Arsenal are seen as simultaneously soft and ill-disciplined. Unfortunately, I don’t there is an agenda – that would imply conscious corruption – because we could do something about that. Changing our public perception is a much harder task.

2. I hate conspiracy theories (and the nutters who promote them), so yes, the likelihood that the PGMOL has it in for us is remote. That doesn’t rule out personal bias on behalf of certain referees (Mike Dean, I’m looking at you), and the fact that since we have a reputation for getting red cards, it’s a lot easier psychologically for a ref to pull out another one when we do something daft where any other team gets a yellow, a stern talking to, or a friendly wave to “play on”.

3. A conspiracy implies a group of people who agree ahead of time to do something. I think it’s much simpler: the referees have seen other referees hand out cards against Arsenal and their implicit bias becomes that Arsenal are a team that earn a lot of cards. It’s not a conspiracy because there is no specific forethought, but at the same time it’s unfair to Arsenal because the threshold for punishing them is lower than for other teams.

   1. Even simpler: we have a lot of players who lose their cool and act like babies when things don’t go their way.

      1. Both things can be true and probably are. We have players that seem to rinse and repeat with stupid mistakes (Xhaka). I don’t think there is a conspiracy against Arsenal, but there are refs (Mike Dean) whose history shows a subconscious bias against the Gunners.

4. If a beloved member of your family starts taking his vodka shots at 10am, maybe it’s time that both of you admit that he has a problem. Arsenal has a discipline problem. And it looks like a problem born of the coaches insisting on intensity and fight, and players like Xhaka not having the athletic capacity to calibrate.

   Xhaka was sold short by Gabriel, was a year late trying to clear a ball and took out Jota. I felt sorry for him, but it was a clear red. Gabriel clotheslined Jesus while on a yellow as Jesus broke. All defenders commit fouls like that. The problem for Gabriel was the the first yellow was a cheap one, born of petulance. Both were deserved. What was Martinelli thinking trying to obstruct a legally awarded throw, and then seconds later shoulder barging an attacker? I’m with Josh in that he should have been cautioned straight away first time so that he knew how much leeway he had, but in both cases he lacked control. Odegaard was out of control in attempting a tackle out of his playing comfort zone. Costly penalty. Thomas Partey was thrown into a game a few hours after completing a 15 hour door to door international trip that included a 9 hour pre-dawn flight with a connection. He picked up 2 yellows, deservedly, in no time. I find it hard to believe that the extra exertion he put into winning the ball wasn’t due in some degree to mental and physical tiredness. The summer’s biggest spending club acted like a small club that has no depth.

   Arsenal doing a great job undermining Arsenal to a large extent. EPL refs are just plain bad. They’ll be lucky to put someone on the field in Qatar.
   ————————-

   I’m with Josh on something else, and both of us have been saying this from the beginning while others here were talking 6th to 10th. Arteta has been handed all of the tools, circumstances and conditions to lead this team to a champions league place, which is a minimum of 4th. No European distractions and travel and the biggest financial reinforcement of the summer mean that 8th to 6th does not represent progress. Getting bounced from all other competitions in January makes that even more clear. If after all of this Arsenal cannot manage 4th, it will be failure. Oh how we wailed and moaned when Emery took us to 5th and a Europa league final in his only completed season. But somehow, there is this determination to give Mikel a pass, despite the club’s worst season and league finish in three decades.

   With 2 games in February and a light schedule, we should be able to finish 4th, and even drag Chelsea into a scrap for 3rd.

   We’re looking good. Win all our games in hand, and we are right back in position and pressuring the West Londoners. Our problem is firepower up front, but we’ve been getting goals from elsewhere in the park, and need to continue doing so.

   1. “omehow, there is this determination to give Mikel a pass, despite the club’s worst season and league finish in three decades.”

      he won us a trophy. i can remember when people were livid about arsene’s failure to end our trophy drought despite achieving top 4 every year. for me, winning the cup and then completely remaking the team makes me want to see more of this project with him at the help, especially since i think the manager, like our young players, will be improving week-on-week.

      1. I don’t take that FA cup win away from him. In fact I’ve said many times that it’s a significant achievement. That said, you can’t turn and twist your way away from the fact that he had a bad return last year… 8th and out of Europe.

         Look man, everybody is rebuilding. That is not an excuse for underachievement.

         Don’t you “you people” me. I was not in that group that was “livid about Arsene’s failure to end our trophy drought”. Even as his time was ending, he won us 3 FA cups.

5. “Wolves aren’t a serious team”
   I think they’re just very Portuguese. I know, stereotypes and all, but they really do seem to enjoy the pettiness.

   Some years ago, I would have argued with you about referees and Arsenal. Now I’m neither as convinced nor do I care as much.

   As for expectations. We really ought to finish top 4. We’re even in good position to do it. I find it galling that the club never came out and said that’s a target (or even that it would be a bonus) 8th was a failure. 6th with no Europe and a huge spend would hardly be much better. But I would take top 6.

   But sometimes I wonder what even is the point? Regardless of how well or poorly we play and regardless of results, we’re only going to persist with this process, and it is dull dull dull. I’m bored. I just want to see some fun, fearless football.

   Speaking of which, there was a stat about no. of shots in the box, and no. of players in the box and we were pretty good on that graph. It didn’t pass the eye test for me, so I’m wondering if it’s because we only commit bodies forward once the risk of being countered is gone, leaving too many defenders in the box when we shoot? Would that explain it?

6. Our current 3 games in hand are Spurs, Chelsea, and Wolves. Liverpool will be another game in hand in the future when the League Cup Final is played next weekend. Either way, we still have Chelsea and Liverpool in front of us where we expect to drop points, and I agree beating Spurs would be great fun and also very helpful for top 4. But having the Wolves at home as part of the games in hand makes me feel better about our current position in the league. We definitely need 3 pts on 2/24 (and to celebrate the shit out of it). After 3 pts this weekend against Brentford, of course.

7. Tim, don’t feign objectivity. Be humble enough to accept your biases. You see, if you take an orange……

   Kidding aside, how can people look at some of the red card incidents we had and try to claim referee bias as the main problem ?

   We’ve had fifteen red cards since Arteta took over. That’s six red cards per season, which is double the number under Emery and Wenger. The argument that the referees have developed a mysterious tendency to dish out red cards to Arteta’s Arsenal is asinine.

   Arteta saying he’ll ‘have a word’ with the referees I think was posturing to deflect from his failure to address the disciplinary problem.

8. Vinay isn’t he fans forum :
   “We are in well in contention for European places. We have got a really good chance of getting in top 4, and that’s what we’re fighting for”

   So the management is aiming for top 4, and rightly so. It’s a certain section of the fan base that is weirdly unambitious and takes offence at expectations of a top 4 finish, which is frankly absurd. Why would fans militantly try to lower reasonable expectations of the club they support ?

   1. I don’t understand that reflex either. It’s like finding a rationalisation for that lack of ambition. Like, you know, poor Mikel… he has such terrible tools to work with. I don’t agree. Finishing in the top 4 should be achievable. If Mikel can’t do it from here, given all the factors we mentioned already, he probably can’t do it at all.

      1. I think there’s your answer. It’s the fans who proclaim the greatest faith in Arteta who are most invested in dismissing top 4 as a target, because in case we don’t make it, it speaks poorly to our chances in the future under him.

         I’m against Arteta and even I don’t think failing to make top 4 should be an automatic sacking. But that evaluation should be for a post season review instead of preemptively listing every factor that could explain it to pull expectations down.

         1. It won’t be an automatic sacking and you know what, I’m cool with that. I don’t dislike the manager that much to pine for his removal. If he is extended despite his results as is likely, there’ll be no quibbles from this fan. I just won’t be under any illusions. And I would genuinely wish him well.

            Look, Everton is a once great club that has no realistic expectation of anything above upper mid table finishes, and the odd run in the cup. And their loyal fans have remained loyal. Football vows are like marriage ones, the exception being that we never, ever divorce our clubs.

            All of that said, 4th is on and all of this could be moot. Onwards.

            1. They won’t sack Arteta if we make a decent run at 4th and fall a little short. And they shouldn’t.
               OTOH, if we collapse and finish out of Europe again, while having scoring problems that everyone could see the potential for a mile away, and getting more stupid red cards, then maybe they will and probably they should.

   2. Would that happen to be the same false prophet that slated Wenger constantly for ‘only’ finishing 4th?

   3. for me it depends on what you mean by lowering expectations.

      i definitely think we should be trying to finish as high was we can – maybe even 3rd, we’re only 8 points behind chelsea with 2 games in hand on them.

      that said, i am not in agreement with the proposition that finishing below 4th would be a failure to meet expectations to the point where the manager’s job should be in jeopardy. i think arteta earned himself some leeway by winning the fa cup, and based on what i’ve seen so far over the course of his tenure i’m content to see him and this team grow together some more.

9. “I would prefer that we were also playing good football, scoring lots of goals, and that we had a forward who had as much sauce as Thierry Henry but that’s probably a pipe dream. And by pipe I mean crack pipe.”

   That’s just about going to make my week.

   We are immature. If we develop and grow these young guys into seasoned Premier League veterans, the red cards will become much less of an issue. Of course, that makes Granit Xhaka already a seasoned veteran, notwithstanding. Dude is just a hair trigger from a sending off. Always has been. But the rest? I think they can be managed with another year or two as Arsenal players.

   The other problem is of course, the lack of scoring. We go a couple of goals ahead and get some insurance, especially later in the game, we get confidence, and we don’t lose our rag.

   We’s on the ups peoples. I think we can get a CL playoff spot in August and we can with that match. 4th place!

10. A lot of talk here bout Arsenal’s issues, largely I agree,
    The issue that I’m more concerned about is that other teams commit similar or worse offences and get more leniency. That’s the real concern. We would have got 3 points at Everton if their two players were sent off correctly – the second, shin high & studs up tackle didn’t even get properly discussed! Similarly vs Palace when Saka was kicked into the air from behind at the end of the first half.

11. this is how i feel about the arsenal red cards: if an arsenal player does something worthy of a red card, he should be sent off. i simply don’t care about what happens with other teams which is why i never talk about this perceived agenda against arsenal. the red cards arsenal have gotten have been deserved…all but the martinelli red; he committed a yellow card offense without already knowing he was already booked. i just don’t think it’s reasonable.

    as for the finish this season, arsenal should be an ambitious team looking to finish 3rd. if they try and finish 3rd, i believe champions league qualification will take care of itself. if arsenal fail to finish 3rd and arteta considers that a failure and takes responsibility for it, i’ll change mind about him as a leader; he would have shown both responsibility and ambition. however, i can’t see arteta taking complete ownership of any failure. every year, we heard wenger say “why shouldn’t we compete for the championship?” as a result, champions league qualification took care of itself. after two decades of hearing wenger’s ambition, it’s hard for me to be impressed with some of the stuff arteta says.

    as for the lack of goals, my position has always been that your goal scorer/creator shouldn’t be burdened with leading the team, especially a young team that needs his leadership. the burden of a goal scorer leading a team will dull his cutting edge in front of goal. it didn’t work for aubameyang. lacazette is having the same struggle. this correlation is easy to see and is as old as i can remember. with that, lacazette is still arsenal’s best center forward option. even when he’s not scoring, he’s still playing good football and arsenal are still creating more chances than if he didn’t play. we’ll see.

    1. understand this concerning the red cards. as a coach, i don’t tolerate ill-discipline at all. if a player gets sent off and it’s legit, there’s one person responsible for it and i let him know how he let his team down with his actions. if they continually do something, like xhaka pulling shirts, i’m stamping that out on the training ground, call him out for it and calling it bad football in front of his team mates. after that, if he gets a red card, i’m not shaking his hand when he comes off. likewise, he knows that his team mates know what he did and how he’s been rolled up in training about it. players need to own what they do and know that sendings off are unacceptable.

       1. Agree 100%. I took it as a failing of my leadership on the odd occasion when one of my kids got out of hand in a match. It only happened 5 times in a 10 year run as a rec coach, but still.

12. Another fantastic post Tim. I agree with everything you said in the post. I also 100% agree with 100% with your comment at 8:37AM on 2/16/22.

    “Even simpler: we have a lot of players who lose their cool and act like babies when things don’t go their way”

    The simplest explanation which requires the fewest assumptions and rationalizations is always much more likely to be correct. You don’t have to do an analytic deep dive to see we have a few players who tend to lose their cool which leads to red cards.

13. Arteta’s job performance always becomes a topic in the comment section and as you point out this is a squad with no recognized goal scorers. Arsene proved you win top 4 trophies by building around your star players such as Sanchez, Ozi, Cazorla or Fabregas and Van Persie. Our current 4 best attacking players that we need to lead us and carry the scoring load are all in their early 20’s and while they are good players and have lots of potential we know with 100% certainty from the Wenger era that potential does not score goals for your team right now. I don’t believe there is any way Arsene would have kept his top 4 streak intact if he would have had Saka, Martinelli, ESR and Odegaard in his regular lineups instead of Sanchez, Ozil, Cazorla and Giroud. The idea that Arteta will have failed if we miss the top 4 spot when he needs a group of early 20’s players who collectively have hardly scored any goals in their entire careers to carry the scoring load and lead the team seems like a very unrealistic expectation. I said this the other day but the fact that we are currently competing for the top 4 with a team that we know will struggle to score must mean that Arteta is doing a good job and he deserves a lot of credit rather then criticism for where the team currently sits in the table.

14. I actually looked back at all of the league tables in this century and there has not been a club in the most recently completed decade who has been top 4 while scoring < 65 goals and there has not been a top 4 team in this entire century which scored < 60 goals. We are currently on pace to score 58.7 league goals and it only looks that good because of the unsustainable run of higher scoring games in December. To have this squad with its lack of firepower competing for a top 4 spot is rather remarkable and it seems like the manager has to get some of the credit. If we finish top 4 it could be an unprecedented feat in this century and given the limitations of the team I would argue that if we as fans suggest the manager will have failed if the club does not finish in 4th then we have probably not really thought enough about the reality of the situation.

15. No Bill, this Arsenal team finishing 4th is not, to quote you, “‘an unprecedented feat”. You left out the helpful context of no fixture congestion whatsoever in Europe for the whole season, and none outside the league from January going forward. We spent the most money on players in the summer window. Arteta has spent a quarter of a billion dollars. This plea of poverty on his behalf simply does not wash.

    You like to make it all about goals and goalscoring. Lets look at that. West Ham’s attack is led by a journeyman named Antonio, who plays for Jamaica. We started the season with more than 200m of attacking talent, inuding a former golden boot. Moyes would have bitten your hand off for that. Tim mentions Rice being absolutely top drawer, but the Arsenal first XI and squad are much better and of a higher quality than West Ham’s. Im taking Saka, Laca, Martinelli, ESR and Pepe over Moyes’ front line all day long. Last season they finished 3 places above us. And it wasn’t even Auba’s “‘year 32 season” 🙂 Even in this most wretched of seasons, Auba had more goals than Harry Kane at the time of his banishment.

    Arteta would be delivering managerial underachievement, no matter which way you want to spin it. Now Arteta boosters, should he fail again, are coming up with all kinds of excuses to let him off the hook. Shard is right.

    I’m not buying your “poor Arteta” narrative. You try to absolve him of any responsibility for everything anyway. His problems are, for you, always someone else’s fault.

    He has been given the tools circumstances and fixture fortune to deliver 4th. Im not saying its a sacking offence, but if he can’t this season, he never will. And then we all become Everton supporters.

    Oh BTW, a chap named Thierry Henry says that Arsenal failing to finish 4th with be a failure. Tough one, but im taking Thierry over Bill on this one.

16. Claude

    No team in this century has scored <60 goals in a season and finished in the top 4. The numbers are undeniable and they certainly prove how difficult it is to finish in 4th with a team that struggles to score as much as we do. If we continue on our current scoring pace and finish in the top 4 we will be the first team in this century to do that so by definition it would be unprecedented.

    I think you are over rating the importance of fixture congestion or lack of congestion on the final league position. The teams who finish in the top 4 the prior season all have the fixture congestion but the vast majority of the time they still finish in the top 4. The bottom 14-15 teams in the league do not have European fixture congestion the following season but how often do you see any of them crack the top 4? There are an occasional examples but its certainly very uncommon

    We are talking about finishing top 4 and and I don’t remember West Ham doing that last year or any time in this century so that is not a reasonable comparison. If they do finish in the top 4 then I would think Moyes deserves some credit.

    The one thing I agree with is we have spent a lot of money in the last couple years but not brought in anyone who can score. I have said this dozens of times but I agree that our front office has not done enough to acquire the goal scoring firepower we need.

    How many times have we seen a team finish in the top 4 when their best attacking players are all early 20’s or late teens and none of them has ever scored many goals. I doubt that has ever happened in this century. It would be an amazing feat if we can pull it off. The fact the squad has to rely on inexperienced players who don’t have any history of scoring to carry the load after spending all of that money is a real problem and our front office needs to do a better job of acquiring talent in the areas we need it.

    1. Unfortunately, Bill, the manager is accountable for decisions made to construct a squad, and the employment of the tactics to get the most out of it. Arsenal started the season with more than 200m in attacking talent. You may choose to believe that they all went to shit all at once… I dont. Tim’s analyses, which you always praise, have repeatedly made the correlation to xG, and that is correlated to tactics, both his and the opposition’s. Some analyst made the point recently about Arsenal’s forward player tussling with the opposition wing back near the corner flag in the Aresnal half, trying to win the ball back. We dont score enough goals in large part (but not exclusively) because Arteta isn’t a particularly good coach of attacking football.

       My point about West Ham is that they finished above us with far less attacking resources. Some coaches spend 60 cents like a dollar. Mikel manages to turn his 60 cents into 40 cents.

       Is your best argument against the lack of fixture congestion is that I am overstating its importance? OK, you like going back in time. Check out Arsenal’s injury history in February due to overload. Stop giving Mikel a pass. He has favourable conditions for top 4 here. If he can’t strike from here, he’s unlikely to, ever.

       1. Claude
          Telling it like how it is warts and all.
          Also don’t forget so many 60 cents totally given away for free because Mikel can’t manage the change. His notes are copies from Pep’s cheque book style . Unfortunately does not have the onus to manage that kind of superstars either

    2. “No team in this century has scored <60 goals in a season and finished in the top 4. The numbers are undeniable and they certainly prove how difficult it is to finish in 4th with a team that struggles to score as much as we do. If we continue on our current scoring pace and finish in the top 4 we will be the first team in this century to do that so by definition it would be unprecedented."

       20/21: Chelsea (58G, 4th)
       06/07: Liverpool (57G, 3rd)
       05/06: Liverpool (57G, 3rd)
       04/05: Man Utd (58G, 3rd); Everton (45G, 4th [with a -1 GD!])
       03/04: Liverpool (55G, 4th)
       99/00: Leeds (58G, 3rd); Liverpool (51G, 4th)

       Liverpool might have a few things to say about finishing in the top 4 with <60 goals being unprecedented this century!

       To be fair, though, no one managed it in the 2010s. But there were a few close calls…

       14/15: Man Utd (62G, 4th)
       10/11: Man City (60G, 3rd)

       1. Brilliant! So unprecedented it hasn’t happened for all of 9 months 😂

    3. not only is claude right when he gave you all the reasons there’s no excuse for arteta, he forgot to mention one that matters to you. the arsenal arteta took over wasn’t relying on 20-somethings to score goals. that’s a situation that arteta created after he got to arsenal; he gets no pass on the fact that the arsenal attackers are so young.

       arteta inherited a team boasting the talents of aubameyang, lacazette, pepe, and ozil; all proven goal scorers and play makers. it was arteta that gave away so much of that talent without even getting a bag of chips in return. ffs, wenger got £2 million for jenkinson and arteta couldn’t get a dime for aubameyang? nuts! in fact, he convinced the club to spend tens of millions to get rid of some of those guys. pepe is like weapon x and arteta has banished him to the bench…because he doesn’t know hot to utilize weapon x…just like he didn’t know how to utilize mesut, who knew it was stupid to chase central defenders he was never going to catch. besides arteta, who thinks auba defending by his own corner flag is the best use of his talent? imagine messi being asked to do that at barcelona.

       1. “he gets no pass on the fact that the arsenal attackers are so young.”

          He does because all of it is justified by either saying the player is no longer good or motivated, or that it was necessary for the culture. His own actions, performance or results cannot be used to judge him. It’s all for a greater cause and future.

          And while a lot of that comes from folk on twitter, it really stems from what the club has been messaging. From before Arteta actually, we had Raul and Vinai sit down and say contracts were mismanaged earlier and blaming legacy issues. It didn’t work because Emery wasn’t charismatic enough to survive even 5th and a bad run next season.

          Still, we’re in with a shot at the CL spots. I’m ok with keeping Arteta around if we make Europe (min. EL) I think they will, but I hope they don’t give him a new contract just yet.

          He’s managed 80PL games for Arsenal now, with 20 in his first season. His record in 4 sets of 20 games is quite similar
          33pts ; 32 goals ; 21 against
          30pts ; 26 goals ; 20 against
          31pts ; 29 goals ; 23 against
          39pts ; 34 goals ; 21 against

          the last is a 6 point improvement on his previous best (Mesut Ozil era) but has come in a season without European football. He’s consistent. Just not sure he can step it up because I don’t think he can coach a cohesive attack.

17. Well that is embarrassing.

    You’re right I went thru the data way to quickly and missed several in the early part of this century and I missed Chelsea last year because they finished 3rd and I was in a hurry and only looked at the 4th team on the list wrongly assuming the teams above would have scored more. Obviously I need to be more careful. Thanks for fact checking.

    The data still confirms the point I am trying to make. Only 1 team in the last 14 years has scored less <60 goals and still finished in the top 4 which clearly shows how incredibly difficult it is for any team that struggles to score the way we do to make the top 4.

    Everything would be different right now if Laca was actually scoring goals and Pepe had worked out and was able to play anywhere close to the level we expected

    1. Don’t beat up on yourself. We all get stuff wrong. Obviously the more goals you score, the better your prospects of an improved finish. That is something we can all agree on.

    2. i agree with claude; don’t beat yourself up about a mistake. hell, i think even i made a mistake once. jk.

       it’s normal to always believe we’re right. what’s progressive is to be open-minded to the possibility of being wrong. this is where much of the conflict is with you; your lack of objectivity.

       most of us are secure enough as men to not really care a lot about being wrong; especially if you’re married. we come here to talk about the team we love because we don’t have a lot of people to talk to arsenal about. my wife, bless her heart, would listen intently to me rant about the club because she loved me. the reality is she doesn’t give a shit about arsenal. most of us, particularly stateside, are in that same boat so we talk to each other. just don’t take it so seriously. it’s not like you’re buying a house.

18. Look on the bright side, folks. Arsenal are in a great position to return to Champions League football. Given the start we had, Arteta has to be given credit for getting us to where we are.

    And if he gets us there, he will have removed much of the skepticism I harbour about him. At the same time, he was given the tools to do so, and has favourable conditions for doing so, and he won’t get a “6th is fine” pass from me. He wasn’t given the resources he was to inch up 2 places from 8th without European football. If folks are fine with that, they’re supporting the man over the badge.

    We are the Arsenal. Let’s aim for better than safe conservatism.

    Sorry if the preceding looks like a bit of a pile on on Mikel (it kind of does, tbf), but I’m not into an Arsenal manager gaining work experience, and being given soft expectations despite the quality of the tools he has been given to do a job.

    Bright side. We are in the mix. And could yet get there. And gooners of the world can unite.

    1. i agree with all, claude. arteta should be given some credit. despite my criticisms, the reality is he’s a much better manager now than he was 2 years ago. now, it’s time to see if he’s good enough to achieve and maintain the arsenal standard as a manager. that means competing for the league championship and the champions league every year.

       like you’ve already stated, he’s spent nearly a quarter-billion and gotten very little from some of the most expensive signings in club history. that’s not to mention the fact that many of the big-money players have lost their value under arteta and virtually every player that’s left arsenal have left the club for nothing. however, if this process finishes with arsenal in the top 4, particularly 3rd, and proves sustainable, i’ll have to admit that he knows what he’s doing better than i thought. i’m not interested in arsenal being a europa league team, or even worse out of europe any longer. we’ll see.

19. I’m 100% with putting responsibility on Arteta. We’ve spent (and wasted) some pretty big chunks of money. He’s had direct involvement in that. I think if we can manage to score at a rate near Dec, we’re OK, and will compete for 4th.
    But if we get an attacking injury or two, the failure to fix the Auba thing or replace him is going to be a big deal. And that’s on Arteta.
    Same with the red cards. A red card here or there is on the player. A pattern of stupid red cards is on the manager. And if we drop points by getting more, it’s 100% on Arteta (related is Arteta not getting a replacement for Xhaka).

20. For me, no excuses for Arteta – see above commentors. We can and should absolutely do this (get CL football next season). I think his time ought to be up if we don’t get there.

21. Very much looking forward to S$%rs vs. Citeh at the Etihad this weekend because, of course…
    Tottenham get battered everywhere they go.

22. It’s weird how expectations change. A lot of people were saying 6th was the expectation at the start of the season, and that would be ok. Now it’s 4th or Arteta has to go! I understand expectations change due to circumstances – crashing out of both cups, e.g. – but rebuilds take time, as I’ve said before. We’ve chosen to go with a youth movement and that usually doesn’t happen overnight.

    If you’re the Kroenkes and Mikhel gets you 5th, you don’t fire him. Even 6th. Unless the XG numbers get really awful, the team gets battered repeatedly toward season’s end, or he loses the dressing room. It’s like you are at stage 3 of a four stage plan. You’ve cleared out the roster. You’ve fixed the wage structure. You’ve overhauled the academy and scouting. Your performance in XG and PPG is strong, and trending upward over the last 2 seasons. Most of the bad performances you’ve had this season were before your team was in place and available. You don’t switch managers when you get to this stage. It’s not about this season. It’s about establishing a long-term foundation for success.

    Hiring a new guy risks taking a big step backward. A new manager (a good one) often wants new players, new system, new style of play. And you’re back in the rebuilding cycle. Ask Man U.

    I’m going out on a limb. I think this argument will be moot because we will get Top 4 – barring a series of injuries to key players. We’re good enough and everyone else is bad enough. There – I’ve jinxed us!

    1. Like your positivity but I disagree that the success of the club is so tightly interwoven with the manager. That takes Arsenal back to where the club was five years ago. The foundations should be independent of the manager.

       Remodelling the squad, developing young talent and balancing the books shouldn’t be dependent on who the manager is. It’s the prerequisite of EVERY Arsenal manager.

       I think there’s a risk perspective gets lost because Arteta and Edu have been given so much latitude to rebuild. If you’re the owner and execs of the club it’s your responsibility to make the ship steady so that it doesn’t all go to shit if the manager leaves.

       BTW I’m not advocating changing the manager. But what I am demanding of the club is that we don’t go through this rebuild nonsense every time there’s a managerial change. No other EPL club would allow what’s happened this past 24 months.

    2. No, it’s not “fourth or Arteta has to go”. You’re missing an awful lot of nuance in between. In any case, the view that 6th is good enough wasn’t universal. At least 2 of us in this community, Josh and myself, said from the beginning that without European games and travel to sap our energy and congest our fixture list, we should be able to have a tilt at top 4. Mikel can’t have his cake and eat it. No Europe and the biggest summer spend defeat any argument for incrementalism. Under the circumstances, 6th is standing still. I make no apologies for having high expectations of Arsenal FC, its players and the returns on its football.

       I don’t agree with you on the new broom needing to sweep clean. A football squad isn’t a food cupboard. Squad building isn’t an a la carte thing. Good coaching also means working with much of what you have. Left to his own devices, Arsene would likely not have purchased Winterburn or Parlour. I really don’t get this lowering of the bar for Mikel.

       All that said, the mood music is that the Kroenkes like and will extend him irrespective of what any of us thinks, and of his returns this season. He seems to fit their coaching template. Maybe theyll give him the equivalent of Aaron Donald, Von Miller and Cooper Kupp to work with.

    3. ha! i don’t think you’ve jinxed us but the rest of the league being so bad is part of it.

       to be clear, i’ve never said anything about firing arteta. however, a reasonable expectation is to finish in the top 4. arsenal are a big team and have spent/lost a lot of money under the direction of arteta. he has no excuse. if he fails to finish in the top 4, some serious questions need to be asked.

       the champions league is for the champions and anyone competing at that level. arteta needs to prove between now and the end of the season, he has made arsenal a team capable of keeping pace with city and liverpool. he’s been given plenty of time, money, and every possible opportunity. if he can keep pace, i have no doubt that arsenal will finish in the top 4. if he can’t, arsenal under arteta don’t belong in the champions league. that’s what, in my opinion, makes failure to qualify for the champions league an untenable position.

    4. “4th or Arteta has to go” is a weird hill to die on.

       I’m notoriously anti-Arteta but 1) he’s kind of winning me over because I think the football has improved and 2) getting worked up about firing Arteta is pointless because Kroenke won’t do it. I think they believe in this coach and in this project and the reason I think that is that they’ve sunk literally hundreds of millions into him in terms of transfers in and out. So come hell (8th place) or high water (5th place) they aren’t firing him.

23. It’s not 4th or failure. I’d be fine with 5th or 6th if we play well the rest of the season.

    But if we end up 7th or 8th, given where we were after December, given what happened and didn’t happen in the transfer window, and given how poorly United and Spurs are performing, I’d view that as a problem, particularly if we have scoring issues and red cards. And a problem specifically pointing at Arteta.

24. I appreciate the sound arguments, I do. But I also think we as supporters have to put a line in the snow (we had a big storm here in Toronto – had to cx a big gig). We’ve spent money. We’ve got the talent. Notably, other clubs are floundering. We need to heighten, not lower or maintain expectations, Champions League money is must next year.

25. Looks like I had some responses moderated, but I’m not so far away from what’s being said here. It’s more a question of 1Nil’s line in the snow and mine in the sand. Below 6th and we should let Arteta go. Give the summer funds to someone else. But above there, (barring some awful run in) Arteta gets a shot at getting the striker he wants.

    As Claude says, the Kroenkes shelled out for some big free agents. But only once they got the foundation laid with the Rams. This season they were finally ready to spend on the big money position, QB. I suspect that’s their aim with a striker for Arsenal. Don’t shell out the really big money for that position until you’ve shown you have the other ingredients largely settled, and you’ve made the wage bill more conducive to a big spend for a star attacker (or 2).

    1. I don’t have anything in the queue. Maybe the internet monster ate them.

26. LAGUNNER

    I hope you are right about the long term plan of the Arteta/Edu rebuild. Even if we somehow make the CL this season our record against the better teams in our league make it pretty clear that its unlikely that we can compete against the CL level of competition with the squad as its currently constructed.

    Claude

    I have to beat myself up a little bit. There is no excuse for bad research for something as straight forward as those numbers. I certainly would not argue with anyone who calls me an idiot. That said your statement that its better to score more goals is the whole point in a nutshell. Obviously there is no 100% threshold, but the correct data that Golden Wigglesworth gave us is still pretty clear that its very difficult for any manager to find a way to finish in the top 4 if his team scores in the 50’s. Last season I think we scored 55 goals and this season the manager has had to find a way for us to get results despite the fact that we have not added any new goal scoring threats and the 3 guys who scored about 60% of last seasons goals have all crapped out. As Tim often says its about managing expectations and at least to me the manager who has this squad competing for a CL spot is exceeding realistic expectations and has to be doing a pretty good job

    1. You’re a good egg, Bill. Bless.

27. Another clutch of tough to swallow decisions in that half. The goal didn’t seem offside and the penalty shout was firmly in the “seen them given” category.

    1. Pen should have been given to us. City awarded one when ball struck defender’s raised arm; Arsenal denied one when ball struck defender’s raised arm. Consistency, please.

       It’s Spurs, and this hurts them in the competition for 4th, so I wanted City to win this. But still, pen in both cases

    2. Yeah, I would have given that penalty. Not surprised we didn’t get it but I would have given it to them if we’d have committed that foul.

28. How the f&$k did S$5rs pull that one out of their arse?

29. Saka and Smith Rowe were pure class again today! Saka, especially, causing absolute havoc down the right side. On the form they’re on, they’re an absolute joy to watch!

    1. I love those young bucks! Just wait till we get Martinelli in the 9!

       On another note – I apologize to everyone here. I take full responsibility for the Sp*rs result. Every time I watch them live, they have improbable wins. I turned on the LCFC debacle just as the goals started coming. Happened 3 times last season when they won in the final minutes. I refrained last week and they lost. Then today, I thought – no way will they win at City. Turned it on at the half and then Kane scores soon after. I promise never to watch them, unless they are playing the Arsenal. It is clearly my fault.

       1. Short of excommunication from the gooner church, im trying to think of a fitting punishment 😄

          You have to tip your hat to them. They did the seasonal double over City, and had a goal disallowed in this game. Probably correctly, but still.

          Goes to show. Tactics matter. City are miles better than Spurs. Conte earned his spurs (do better, Claude)

          What a game Harry Kane had, confirming that he’s one of the best centre forwards in all of football. A good game to show Pep what he could have had. Spurs are going to take a lot of confidence from this, dammit. As Karl Rove once said of a political race, “it’s tight as a tick” between 3rd and 7th.

          1. “Conte earned his spurs” Pun police are coming for you!

             Yep, exactly the confidence booster we didn’t want them to get. They hate possession. It reminded me so much of the FA cup win against city under Arteta. Just sit back and find that one chance. Though fair play, they got 2.

             For once, I am really looking forward to us going there. I think we will completely frustrate them. Gabriel will put Harry in his pocket! Rumor has it the game is moving to May for TV purposes. We can then claim we won top 4 at the toilet bowl.

30. Patience prevailed and was rewarded today. Hat tip for them academy kids. This Summer I’d prioritise another midfielder who can run with the ball. We have a lot of passers but few dribblers. Get me a twin for Emile.

    Also can’t help but think how much more of an attacking force this team could be with a good target man.

31. It seems young players can score goals if we create good chances

    Who knew !?

    1. lol

    2. I mean, all players who became 20+ goals per season scorers started their career NOT scoring. You have to start somewhere.

32. i’m in love with the results from yesterday. it means we have a race for the championship and a race for the champions league places. i don’t care much for spurs winning but i love the fact that they seem game to finish in a top 4 spot. this means arsenal has to be at their best if they want to keep up. i want to see arsenal at their best. if they don’t finish in the top four, it’s because they didn’t earn the right to be there. we’ll see.

33. …and auba just got his first goal in his first start for barca. so it begins.

    1. Live, laugh, tumble…first half brace

    2. I want Auba to smash it in Spain. Then watch Mikel’s apologists come here and say that the Spanish league is crap anyway. Or that he has nice tatts and runs around a lot 😉 Wouldn’t it be dead funny if he led them to the Europa? He was the primary reason for Arteta’s only trophy as manager.

       You will never guess who is STILL Arsenal’s 3rd leading scorer this season (behind the 2 yutes who scored), despite missing a truckload of games, an internal ban and no longer being at the club.

       On young players, even young Leo Messi did not arrive at the Barcelona first team off a 20 goal season. I’ve never understood what the argument on this really is.

       1. He’ll smash it. He’s played well in his two substitute appearances. It will become clear it wasn’t an ability / performance issue.

          1. i don’t believe anyone ever thought it was an ability or performance issue. it’s always been a knowledge issue; do you know how to utilize this resource? just because he’s a 500 horsepower vehicle, that doesn’t mean a porsche should be pulling bales of hay. likewise, xavi and arteta are about the same age so that’s not it.

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