Martinelli on the left

108 comments

1. This 180m stuff is club propoganda to placate the fans during a window where we signed nobody. Everyone knows we need a CF and a CM, probably 2CFs. I wouldn’t be surprised if we made Laca a 2 yr offer he couldn’t refuse (that always turns out well), signed a player (hopefully not Isak for me), and hoped our midfield would do (Elneny extension). That would not be enough for me, but hey, it would cost maybe 50m. Add another 20m or so for smaller punts (Nuno Tavares style), bring back Saliba (maybe) and you have yourself a window.

   What would I like? Two strikers and a midfielder, of course. Ideally two midfielders, to replace both Elneny (bye) and AMN (off ye go to Roma), but come on now.

2. I just want to get back to cheering for the team and yelling at refs for dodgy decisions against it. Good grief, the past 2 weeks have been exhausting. I’ve come to the conclusion that the manager is part of the toxicity his supporters say that he wants to excise, but I see no contradiction in wanting him to get the best results possible for the remainder of the campaign. If he’s doing well results wise, that means that the team is, and that’s what I’m here for.

   Let me single out Nketiah for a moment. This is a huge, huge 4 months for him. He’s not going to start, but he’s got to look to be ready to make an impact when he comes on. Heading elsewhere in the summer is best for him, but with Auba gone, this is his moment to seize.

   I love Martinelli, but for now I dont think that he has the football education to play centrally. His strengths are his runs, his running and his fabulous engine. As Auba would tell you, that is not how this team utilises its central man.

   I kinda dig the 442 idea with Pepe. He slows down the play out wide, but boy can he finish with that left peg. A good AFCON will have restored some of his confidence.

3. I too dig the 4-4-2 idea. Would love to see this lineup some day:

   Ramsdale
   Tomi White Gabriel Tierney
   Saka Odegaard Partey ESR
   Pepe Martinelli

   1. +1

4. We are not going to stumble and bumble our way to a 4th place trophy. We need to find some consistency and score more than once every few games.

   How that’s going to happen, I have no idea and I’m concerned that Arteta doesn’t seem to either.

   Still, I’m glad that this break will soon be over and we’ll have actual football again, or a close facsimile thereof.

5. I can’t see Arteta deviating too much from what has worked this season. The “support striker” in a 4-4-2, the one who plays a little deeper, is often the best offensive player on the team and the de facto #10. I just don’t see how Pepe gets that role even if that was the formation Arteta preferred. Saka has made him redundant, for better or worse. It’s disappointing from a resource allocation point of view but we didn’t think we’d have Saka when we signed him. An academy player better than the club transfer record signing! It sounds bad until you see how good Saka is, and then it becomes more of a compliment to Saka than a diss on Pepe. For me at least. You can’t shoehorn a player into the team just because he was expensive, and right now Pepe is not playing but Saka is, on merit. As it should be.

   The way I see it, the system we have is as good as our central midfielders. When we have Partey and Xhaka back there, it’s really very good. We progress the ball well and we are competitive in duels, and I’d be willing to bet we record a lot more shots too. When we don’t have those two guys, or even worse, not even one of those two guys, it’s often terrible and the offense looks disconnected and aimless, because it is. Example one: our last competitive match against Burnley. Also: Nottingham Forest. Games where Xhaka/Partey have started: the 3-1 vs. Tottenham comes to mind. It comes down to PARKA (Partey/Xhaka) for Arsenal in 2022.

   With this in mind, I give you the Parka Split (TM).

   Games with Parka starting (N= 7): Man City (H) 1-2; Norwich (H) 5-0; Leeds (A) 4-1; West Ham (H) 2-0; Soton (H) 3-0; Everton (A) 1-2; Spurs (H) 3-1

   Games played: 7
   Games won: 5
   Win %: 71%
   Games lost: 2
   Games drawn: 0
   Goals scored: 19
   Goals scored per game: 2.7
   Goals conceded: 6
   Goals conceded per game: 0.86

   Games without Parka (N= 13): Burnley (A) 0-0; Man United (A) 2-3; Newcastle (H) 2-0; Liverpool (A) 0-4; Watford (H) 1-0; Leicester (A) 2-0; Villa (H) 3-1; Crystal Palace (H) 2-2; Brighton (A) 0-0; Burnley (H) 1-0; Norwich (A) 1-0; Man City (A) 0-5; Chelsea (A) 1-2; Brentford (A) 0-2.

   Games played: 13
   Games won: 6
   Win %: 46%
   Games lost: 4
   Games drawn: 3
   Goals scored: 15
   Goals scored per game: 1.15
   Goals conceded: 19
   Goals conceded per game: 1.46

   PARKA POWER. Yes I know the 7 games is a smaller sample. I also know the other 13 games had harder fixtures. But as I put the list together I realized even the wins we had without PARKA were not comfortable. The 2-0 at Leicester comes to mind, or the 1-0 at Watford. Whereas with PARKA the wins were resounding and there was not a single game we weren’t in until the very end. We lost to a rocket from Gray and to a double deflection vs. City.

   1. They play well together. And Xhaka has mostly played well this season. Arteta has got some of the most consistent play out of him of his entire Arsenal career.

      They are our best pairing. But the problems with them are..

      1. Xhaka was born indisciplined on a football field. He’s going to have 4 good games against moderate to good opposition, and then he’s going to do something stupid in a big game in which he needs to show leadership (like, oh, I dunno, tugging the shirt of a man already in the process of diving). Even when he’s playing well, he does that sly, niggly, on the edge stuff… a caution waiting to happen. Mikel shows, to his serial offending midfielder, the sort of forbearance he does not to other players… but if the recent transfer links to other midfielders tell us anything, it is that he may be ready to at least look around for alternatives.

      2. Partey has rarely shown the bossman quality we expect of him, or he has been too prone to injury. On his day, though, he is classy midfielder.

      On btw, Sambi looks to me to have taken a step backwards from when we first saw him. He’s got plenty of time on his side, though.

      1. Granit’s brand of indiscipline is borne out of a lack of athleticism to cover ground, not to do with any of Arteta’s pet peeves. They’re very much peas in a pod mentality wise: Xhaka was also born accountable and is a team first, high IQ player who will absolutely follow instructions and lead other players. I’m going to get slaughtered for calling him high IQ because of his individual errors, but hear me out.

         Why is he good, when he is good? Why does he mesh so well with Partey? Why does the team play better with him than without him? It’s not his dribbling or his tackling. It’s not his foot speed or even his passing which is probably his best pure football trait. It’s because he fundamentally gets the game. He knows where he should be in both phases, he shows for the ball, he gets in passing lanes, he adjusts the tempo and he takes responsibility. He’s like a ship’s rudder in a way: you don’t see it but he’s steering the whole thing. Partey is the engine, the elegant athlete who does all the visible things Xhaka can’t but without the rudder, the ship is directionless. To me it’s only high IQ footballers who can steer the ship. Yes he makes horrible individual blunders, like a QB who throws for two touchdowns and two interceptions which cancels out the touchdowns and then some. His value is greatly diminished by that. But there’s nobody else in the team that can steer the ship and so for the next few months we desperately need him and his engine room mate firing on all cylinders.

         1. Amidst all the bilious hate I see directed at Xhaka in other forums this stands out as the clearest explanation of why, when fit or not suspended, he has been selected by every single Arsenal coach despite his susceptibility to ‘brain farts’. Nicely done, Doc.

         2. How can he be described as knowing where he should be in both phases when his defining feature is getting caught out of position? Mertesacker was limited athletically, more than made up for it with his positional sense.

            Plus, pointing out that we don’t have options just reminds us that Arteta/Edu have had multiple windows to fix that issue – their latest inexplicable decisions have been to ship out AMN while passing on actually serviceable players like Bruno.

            Agree that there’s a mentality preference element to it – difference is that Arteta as a player actually performed commensurate to his confidence, Xhaka is nowhere close. I’d also offer that both Arteta and Edu were part of the one-time dying breed of central midfielders who were neither offensive nor defensive specialists – there may be a bit of a CMs Union thing going on.

            1. It also conveniently forgets that Arteta’s main genius has been extremely limiting Xhaka’s movement in order to essentially tether him to one spot and make it less likely he will get caught out. I think he actually doesn’t read the game very well (defensively) and combined with his slow footspeed and impudent nature, think he’s essentially a time bomb.

               Now where I agree with Doc is that he does read the game well in terms of passing – even if he is extremely slow at it. But offensive passing and defensive cover are two very different skills. They are almost like different personalities and some people struggle reading the game going forward and other struggle reading it defensively. He really reminds me of Denilson in this regard.

            2. I don’t think he’s nearly good enough for what we need but he is the only only one in the squad who can even come close to being able to provide control and direction in that position. It’s a bit like having Ryan Fitzpatrick at quarterback if your backup is Blake Bortles, or having a bag of plain Lays potato chips if the only other thing you can have is a tin of anchovies. You kind of just ride him because you have no real choice. The club tried to address it last summer and he would’ve gone to Roma had we been able to find anyone better. We couldn’t. It’ll be a huge priority this summer.

   2. Well done Doc. Your caveats aside, I see a marked difference in our offensive power when both of these guys play. It has taken Partey a long time to round into form this season, but his last few outings seemed to be showing improvement. When paired with Xhaka, there seems to be a chemistry that I must concede, despite full agreement with Claude’s misgivings about the walking minefield.

      We’re in a tenuous position, as injuries to either player could put the season into a tailspin. I was much less concerned about replacing Auba than I was finding a legit 3rd option in midfield for the remainder of the season. I hope this doesn’t come back to haunt us.

      Having said that, I do disagree with Claude about Sambi. I think the last 2 games were an improvement for him – he had definitely taken a step back for a period, but I think he got worse before he got better, and I expect to see continued improvement. If paired with Xhaka, I think he struggles. Paired with Partey he’s an acceptable solution. I imagine he will bulk up a bit in the next year – much like ESR and Martinelli did – and that will bring some dividends in his ability to control play and win duels.

      The team we have, if healthy, will get us at least Top 6. Top 4 is a reach, but not unrealistic, IMO. Can we please play some bloody football soon?!

      1. Agree with you on Sambi, on reflection. He had a couple of indifferent games on being thrown back into it, but stood tall in the last game or two. We’ll need him (and hopefully an Elneny rejuvenated by AFCON) because despite the light schedule, we have to plan for one of Parka being absent.

6. Good analysis Claude. For better or worse, that’s looked like the best midfield pairing we have. If Xhaka could stay out of the red part of the book and Partey healthy, I’d almost say we don’t need a new first string midfielder. And I like the PARKA abbreviation.
   Not thinking a Pepe/Martinelli striker combination would work for many matches. Neither has shown a lot of ability to receive and distribute with close control. Which is needed against teams that defend in numbers in the box. Laca has some of that, Giroud was even better. Something like that might work against teams that are pressing up and leaving gaps in behind.
   And I wouldn’t give Laca anything more than a 1 year contract and even that might be pushing it. He’s done a job as some sort of a false 9/10. But without the goals. Even if he bangs in a few in the remainder of the season, I don’t think he’s got what we need longer term.

7. Classy Arsenal midfielders:

   1. Denis Bergkamp
   2. Cesc Fabregas
   3. Santi Cazorla
   4. Robert Pires…and a clutch of other Invincibles.
   5. For maybe ONE combined season cobbled together for all the years he was here, Jack Wilshere.
   6. # Per 5 above, too many others who can go into that category: Little Mozart Tomas Rosicky, Abou Diaby, etc.
   7. Waiting in the Wings? Emile Smith Rowe, Bukaya Sako

   1. 8. Charlie Patino.

8. A 4-4-2 with Laca/Pepe and ESR/Saka as wide midfielders seems like both an extremely Wenger thing to do…or going fully mental in football manager. Kind of reminds me when Big Gerv played up top for a bit.

9. Great post Tim. I am still not sure where we are going to get the number of goals we need to compete for a top 4 spot. Saka, Martinelli, ESR and Odegaard are all good players with the potential to have bright futures but potential does not help win games now and none of them have ever been high volume goal scorers in the past. If we are counting on them to be our main attacking players then more then 1 of them somehow needs to suddenly start scoring consistently and expecting that to happen this year seems unrealistic. After watching Laca for 4 1/2 years and Pepe for 2 1/2 its seems unlikely that either could help carry the load either. Auba struggled for the last 1 1/2 years I can’t believe he would have helped all that much. We don’t have enough firepower and I think that needs to be addressed in the next couple transfer windows if we hope to become a legitimate top 4 team that can hold its own against the other CL level teams in our league and the CL level teams from around Europe.

   There are ways to the top 4 with the current squad but they seem unlikely. We have to hope for a great run of defensive form where we keep a large number of clean sheets and/or we can hope for a total implosion from Spurs, ManU and West Ham at the same time.

10. I usually agree with Doc but I urge caution when putting together tables like the one in his comment at 11:54AM. As I am sure he knows from being in the medical profession, correlation which is identified from a statistically non significant small same size does not always equal causation. In other words just because the small sample size of stats shows that we have played much better with Parka on the pitch so far this year does not mean they are the cause of our improved play. We have seen this stuff many many times in the past. They have been together for 1 1/2 years and there has not been a lot of evidence that having them together on the pitch is somehow transformative and turns us into a much better team. We saw this happen when Laca took over for Auba and we almost immediately went on the run of form in December. There was a short run of very strong correlation between Laca at CF and excellent results but after watching Laca for the previous 4 season does anyone really believe he caused us to transform us just by being in the line up? .

    1. Of course Bill. I’m not trying to publish this in a peer reviewed journal. I do think it’s interesting though that there is such a strong split and this matches my perception of those games. It seems too plausible to be a mere fib of the data.

       1. It also passes the smell test: they are our two best midfielders and it makes sense that we would be better when we have our best players on the field. In fact, I thought that was sort of Bill’s entire brand: get the best players out there.

          1. Exactly, as someone who does biomedical stats as part of my job, we do worry about these things with stats models. Sometimes they find things that don’t make clinical sense. So we have clinicians that do a face validity test on model results.
             In this case, those stats pass my eyeball test too. We look like we play better with both of them on the field.

11. losing aubameyang isn’t going to cost arsenal goals because, as i’ve been saying for years, aubameyang isn’t a center forward. jjgsol said it in the previous thread that arteta is using him wrong. every manager since he’s been at the club, saw him scoring goals and felt the need to play him at center forward…..and they’ve all failed. every time they played him at center forward, his goals dried up a bit. then, they bring lacazette back at center forward and auba starts scoring again. then, they put him back in at center forward. it’s like a vortex.

    people have little to no faith in lacazette, citing the 3 solitary goals he’s scored. well, he’s only got like six or 7 starts at center forward this season and he’s contributed with 3 assists to those three goals so he’s not half bad. the lack of starts has been a trend throughout his arsenal career. he’s always shared time with giroud, alexis, or aubameyang. conventional wisdom suggest this will be the first time in his arsenal career that laca is the undisputed main guy at center forward. let’s see how he does.

    still on lacazette, the point most miss is the fact that arsenal create more chances when laca leads the line than when he doesn’t. that’s been arsenal’s biggest problem; chance creation. do i care who scores or gets the assist? no. i care that the team can create good chances and score. laca provides arsenal with the proper platform to create chances. it was only a couple of years ago that folks were lauding roberto firmino as the best center forward in the league and he only had 11 goals that season; 3 in a hat trick against arsenal. however, his play facilitated the attack for mane and salah. speaking of liverpool, klopp used to coach aubameyang and he didn’t play aubameyang at center forward.

    as for the 4-4-2, it won’t work for several reasons. the main reason most teams don’t play a 4-4-2 is you only have 2 center mids where a 4-3-3 has 3 center mids; unless you’re playing with prime vieira and essien as your two center mids, you’re getting skull-drug in midfield. parka is no vieira or even petit; they would get drug. likewise, a 4-3-3 has 3 strikers where a 4-4-2 only has two. the only teams playing 4-4-2 these days are counter-attacking teams…like leicester city. first, i don’t want to play like them. second, you need a striker who can take the top off a defense the way vardy can and arsenal just gave their guy away.

12. btw, anyone see aubameyang’s press conference? he says he loved everything about arsenal and that his only problem was mikel arteta. it’s what i’ve been telling you guys my biggest fear is. arsenal used to be an attractive option for every player who wanted to play attractive football. now, many top players will not want to come to arsenal primarily because of the reputation of their asshole manager; a manager who’s an asshole for no good reason. it’s not like he’s earned the right to be an asshole because he’s won so much.

    no one wants to put their career in the hands of a manager who notoriously seeks personal vendettas against his own players because he doesn’t like something about them. seriously, grow up. we’ve all had to deal with someone we didn’t like and often did good work with them.

    credit to auba for keeping things controlled. his press conference before he left dortmund to come to arsenal was contentious. he was very critical of dortmund, citing their absence from the champions league and that arsenal were a team who would always be in the champions league. the germans have not let him forget he said that.

    1. There’s an article in the Guardian which describes Auba in virtually the same way that you’ve been saying this entire saga: happy-go-lucky, smiles all the time, late for practice, loved by everyone, plays football with a smile on his face, needs to be handled slightly differently from other players.

    2. From the Guardian Article, sounds exactly how you described how people need to understand that strikers are just weird and that you deal with them:

       ““When we wanted him to be on time, we told him the meeting was 10.45am when it was 11am,” Tuchel said last May. “He did not miss one single training session in two years. Maybe he arrived five minutes late – that can happen with him. But if he does this, he is in a hurry, he is sorry and he has still a smile on his face. That’s him, and it’s hard to be really mad with the guy. He has a big heart. A bit crazy but nice crazy.”

       Jürgen Klopp, who also managed Aubameyang at Dortmund, would say the same things and so would Christophe Galtier, the Nice coach, who worked with him at St Étienne. In other words, count to 10 when it comes to the scattiness; embrace the exuberance.”

13. I still see people pining for Xhaka to start next season.

    We deserve every gaffe/red card that’s going to cost us crucial games.

    1. I’m not one of them. We can and should upgrade but top class midfield generals don’t grow on Islington lamp posts.

       1. Doc, Xhaka is the ‘general’ of nothing 😂.

          If Xhaka is the standard we hold our midfield to, we don’t deserve to call ourselves an elite club. The standards of midfield play have truly dropped at Arsenal.

          1. I was referring to his replacement.

             I don’t think we’ve been an elite club in terms of product on the pitch for a long time.

             1. “I don’t think we’ve been an elite club in terms of product on the pitch for a long time”

                And I posit having a crap midfield (with Xhaka as the mainstay) is the major reason for that. We, or any team for that matter, look instantly better when we can control the middle of the pitch.

                There are plenty of attainable midfielders out there who can bring more to this team than Xhaka without the calamitous errors. Fans should really stop with this Stockholm syndrome levels of obsession with Xhaka.

             2. I’m not sure where this obsessed fan base is that you’re talking about. I haven’t seen them. I also think you underestimate the difficulty of finding a midfielder who can truly control a game.

             3. “I’m not sure where this obsessed fan base is that you’re talking about. I haven’t seen them”

                I’ve seen at least one

14. There’s not been a great deal of sympathy from ex-players for Auba, perhaps Wrighty excepted. I’m surprised. Certainly less sympathy than I have.

    I found Ray Parlour’s comments pretty interesting. Confirmation bias and all that, but still.

    His feeling (which I also have) is that towards the end players were “taking the mick” and letting Wenger down, and Wenger for his part was too trusting and failed to haul them up for it, believing in the best of people, one of the many traits I loved him for.

    Arteta was there at the time and saw it happen, Parlour suggests he learned a lesson and this is perhaps one of the reasons, as well as his natural inclinations, for having zero tolerance policies. I don’t know about that.

    More interestingly for me, Parlour (who started under Graham, no shrinking violet) said that in the great Arsenal teams the manager didn’t have to intervene very often, if your attitude was wrong the other players would pull you up on it first.

    Note that I’m talking about the more romantic era here where players were the stars, not stats, systems and managers. And – whaddaya know? – they all cared. Arsenal came first. If Arsenal won then they were heroes together, if not then they weren’t and they didn’t have social media profiles and FIFA ratings to fall back on.

    This is some of the culture stuff I’m talking about, the players have to demand of each other as much as the manager demands, they have to care as a group about winning first and foremost, and I believe it’s what Arteta is trying to reinstate.

    Oh, yeah. I’m gonna regret this, but…

    If you want to insult or make fun of me for believing the above – “naive”, blinkered”, “rose-tinted sight corrupting my vision and intelligence” or whatever – then there’s no need for that, and you can go swivel. Also if you want to call the drive to improve the culture an attempt to start a cult then go ahead, but in all honesty I think it makes you look bad, and I think it’s insulting to the intelligence of the players as well as the manager.

    There was an incredible comment on the last thread in which someone claimed that Arteta had wanted to get rid of Auba from day one, and had deliberately chosen a system that didn’t suit Auba in order to make things hard for him, and was deliberately strict with him in order to make him unhappy, just to force him out.

    I don’t need to say that this is mad conspiracy theory, right? It goes against known facts as well as all credibility. But it got full agreement from others, so I guess if it paints Arteta as an idiotic, egotistical comic-book villain then it’s OK.

    So for those of you inclined to believe things like that, let me gift you this conspiracy theory: Arteta was one of the players taking the mick and undermining Wenger, he wanted to see Wenger fail because he wanted to be manager one day and he just hates other people being successful. Go ahead, knock yourselves out with that one.

    1. Interesting point about how in the past players used to dig one another out if they felt a teammate wasn’t pulling their wait. People like Souness and Keane are forever mentioning this under the guise of leadership.

       Thing is society, attitudes, technology, expectations (you name it) all change. Stuff that happened twenty years ago just isn’t acceptable now. Parlour would probably also say that most of the team bonding took place during afternoon sessions in the local boozer. These days it’s a trip with the family to Dubai.

       I think the two things you need most as a manager are embracing change so you’re at the forefront of the latest initiatives, and recognising people require different approaches to get the best from them.

       1. Agreed, what a positive, winning culture looks like now will not be exactly the same as it was 20 years ago. But some fundamental things will be the same.

          I agree different approaches for different people is important but you can take it too far and end up in a situation where you have different standards for different people. One guy who is always late gets away with it because it’s just his character and you have to tolerate it – meanwhile other players who are always on time see that and think “if I’d done that I would be fined or suspended, why is that guy getting preferential treatment?”

          Pretty soon you end up with a break in trust and team spirit as players split up into cliques and all complain about each other behind their backs. It’s easy to imagine this is what happened at Arsenal, with certain players perceived to be getting special treatment (see Ramsey’s public comments about Ozil for example), and easy to imagine this is the reason for Arteta’s focus on discipline and togetherness – apart from it being his natural stance anyway.

          Shard asked a good question which was “was all this scorched earth stuff and money spent on transfers and wasted contracts actually necessary?” My answer was probably yes, but I don’t discount the idea that a more skilful man-manager could have brought everyone back into alignment and motivated them without tearing up contracts or moving people out.

          1. That Ramsey quote about Ozil makes me chuckle. It’s sour grapes from Ramsey. Before Arsene dropped £££ on Ozil, Jack and Aaron were the young midfield golden boys. Arsene was very fond of Ramsey and the Shawcross maiming probably made that bond stronger. Ramsey no doubt fancied himself as Arsenal’s #10. But his lack of positional discipline would probably have seen him jettisoned within a week of Arteta arriving. Ramsey wouldn’t survive under Pep, TT, Klopp and many others. Arsene gave him a very easy ride but he more often than not delivered. Win:win I’d say.

       2. The whole way that teams interact is wildly different now than it was in the 80s, surprise! We just don’t treat employees the same way, and legally you actually can’t do what Graham could do or Wenger could do up to around 2015. Player power is a real thing and it’s only getting stronger. Some folks trying to say that Arteta “won” against Auba but the facts are that Auba is getting 100% of the contract he signed and Arsenal paid all of the first two years, 36m, and by subsidizing the rest of this season, they have made it possible for Barcelona to have a striker this season. It really blows my mind that people see this as some kind of win for Arsenal. It was a desperation move by a manager and club who would rather just pay off Auba than have to deal with him.

          As for his man-management style, Arteta does seem like a throwback to that previous era and like I’ve said many times, that managerial style works for a while and then people get sick of it. He’s very much like Jose Mourinho and unless he’s winning things, he’s going to become more and more unliked by his players. And eventually, the owners will take note of the fact that they have blown incredible sums of money on a guy who isn’t winning anything and they will also have to take action.

          Another thing here is that these guys’ lives are so utterly prescribed to them these days – from their diet to their sleep regimen – and I think people don’t even remotely understand how hard that is and how different it is from even 10 years ago. Wenger called it a monastic life and that’s the best description for a modern footballer. These guys eat steamed chicken breast and broccoli 6 times a day, forcing themselves to eat at times. They can’t go out at night, they don’t drink, don’t smoke, and live and breathe football. They also have to study tapes and data when they aren’t working out. Their only fun, their only joy, is when they play football and a few moments between when they get to go out and do something maybe a little bit bad, like play a round of golf. Add to that mix a manager like Arteta and I can understand why the more senior players have gotten tired of it.

          1. Tim, do you think the money involved in football might have something to do with the increased austerity imposed on players ? It’s the same across elite sport.

             1. Re PR, I think the money is absolutely at the core of it. Or more precisely, an assumption that because players make so much more money than they used to, they are under an obligation to optimise themselves to the point of automatons.

                Except – the money in football was never about “improving” or “revolutionising” the game. It’s just a side product of a financial system that rewards parking money in sporting corporations over paying taxes or investing meaningfully in communities.

                So if the expectations of Aubameyang suddenly change when he signs a big contract, that’s not on Auba. That’s on the manager and the club who feel entitled to “more” from him when what he always gave them – trophy winning goals, often from very little creation – is by itself the most valuable thing in football. A commodity that they would’ve had to pay a hell of a lot more for if they went to the open market, as they found out this Jan.

                He performed at that level consistently over multiple years while not being the best timekeeper, showing that the two are not as correlated as some self-help and management texts would like us to believe.

                Also – and this may be a controversial point – Arteta lecturing about sacrifice and the collective to a guy who slept on an airport floor to play for the country of his birth… just leaves an unpleasant taste.

             2. The last point here is really important. Not because it excuses anything Auba did but because it shows that Auba is a much more complex figure than being painted right now: where he’s either just a failure and waster or Arteta is entirely wrong. I think it’s a much bigger problem and that what it came down to is that Arteta just found a way to suck the joy out of Auba. Even when Arteta was praising him this year, Auba looked MISERABLE playing football and for me, there’s an existential question about football, which is why do we play football? For entertainment. If he’s not having fun, we aren’t having fun, we aren’t really filling the whole point of football.

             3. It’s down to science and money. 50 years ago we had just a small handfull of bodybuilders because we didn’t really understand how to shape the human body. And even the Arnold “revolution” was mostly achieved through steroids. But these days regular actors get stacked because the science of diet and exercise is well known. It’s not easy but most folks can achieve the “superhero” bodies we see in our films.

                Soccer (football) is lagging a bit behind. I think that the players were still largely drinking beer and eating fried foods even just a few years ago. I’m convinced Jack Wilshere would have had a longer and better career if he’d have taken better care of himself (he was notorious for taking poor care of himself during his rehabs). But now days, they are all on controlled diets. That’s partly because they themselves are so rich but also the club has the money to pay for personal chefs (such as for Emile Smith Rowe) and the clubs all know that they can get some small gains from controlling the player’s diets and so on.

             4. It’s also about minimizing financial risk. They are spending a lot of money on these players, so not only are they placing a lot of emphasis on nutrition and training, but they also care what they do on their free time. I bet most contracts have restrictions on playing other sports for fun, or riding motorcycles, etc.
                Those things were normal in NFL contracts 30 years ago. When I worked in a ski shop back in those days, Howie Long came in and asked me to keep quiet about the boots he was buying as the Raiders didn’t want him skiing.

          2. Arteta shows us who he is for 90 minutes every game, and some of us choose not to believe him, or our own eyes. A lot of managers kick every ball — that is the passion of football. Others — rarer still — are like Marcelo Lippi. “I gave the players their instructions, they’re big boys, go execute.” Seems like Arteta would run onto the pitch and physically yank people into position if he could. He subbed Nuno Tavares very early in a fit of pique. He subbed Auba in a fit of pique right after missing a goal. That’s who he is. Control freak, and temperamental. That’s is the character of someone who doles out indefinite punishment, to players whose offences do not match the gravity of Mason Greenwood’s, or others of different kind of gravity. The bloke is showing us who he is. Why do we have concoct all of this stuff about culture that we couldn’t possibly know, and are only guessing at? People like to blithely say that Ozil’s problem was cultural. Not one person ever said what his cultural transgressions were. But, culcha, man. Per Mertesacker said Ozil was a model pro and a diligent trainer. James Benge said Auba was a help and guide to younger players. Talk about blowing up a narrative. Why are we always helpfully filling in Arteta’s imagined blanks, when he keeps showing us who he is?

             That early sub of Nuno is not unheard of in football, but the action noticeably did not gee up the team. So being a hardass has limited utility. It works if you’re winning, or if you’re a genius at what you do. If you can make a dollar out of 60c. If you’re a hardass but you’re not very high level at what you do, what you’re engendering is low key fear, not a buckling down occasioned by respect. Happy smiling faces in a sunny jaunt in Dubai in the winter is not evidence of togetherness. It’ll show in several ways… one, on the pitch; two in players wanting to play for you. Laca shouted out his good mate Auba on social media, saying that he’ll see him soon. Make of that what you will.

             Parlour? Yes, he supported Arteta’s actions. And Petit did as well. But that does not a survey make. How many ex-Arsenal players are out there? A hundred? The ones who said nothing may be speaking to this far more eloquently (and one or two may want his job; others still to protect their access to the club)

             And speaking of Parlour… does anyone imagine that Mikel would have kept a bunch of talented but hard-boozing players when he came into the club? Look what Wenger did to them. I’ll bet Tony Adams didn’t keep time too well 😀

             1. George Graham was actually quite permissive in some ways, he definitely put up with the drinking culture at the club which definitely hurt the club and his own chances of winning trophies. Especially when Tony went to jail.

          3. I hate Mourinho. Mourinho is petulant, whines, complains, plays mind games, insults other managers, insults fans, attacks his own players, calls them lazy, blames the chairman, the weather, the referees, the journalists, the tea lady and his own mother, meanwhile he always talks about his own greatness and “specialness”.

             Arteta does none of that. I don’t love Arteta but I don’t hate him, in the end I just don’t think they’re very similar.

             1. Their management style is similar in that they both take absolute positions and ostracize players. but I do see your point about the off field stuff and take it back.

    2. Players check players. This is actually a maxim I’ve heard often enough from professional sportspersons and in my experience is true of all locker rooms even at the lowest of levels.

       So, do you think the players had a problem with Ozil? With Auba? Or was it the manager deciding no actually, these players are not doing it the way I would so I cannot trust them? What leadership do you expect players to show in such situations?

       In one of my early criticisms of Arteta, when I was still hoping he’d be a coach I could believe in, I said he’s still trying to lead like a captain rather than a coach. I don’t think he’s learned even now. And that really is my issue with him. He believes he already knows everything there is to know. Losing a European spot should have been his wakeup call and a cause for introspection. But maybe that won’t come until he faces consequences for it. Until now, he’s only been rewarded for failure.

       1. I think Ramsey had a problem with Ozil at least, because he talked about it. That at least was clear, and clear evidence of a dressing room problem, how big it went would be me speculating.

          Let me reiterate for the hundredth time, I don’t love Arteta. I don’t know if he believes he knows it all. But I also don’t know how YOU seem to know that he does. He’s made changes to his approach, changes to line-ups, formations, tactics, players, he started out with Luiz, Willian and Soares, and he’s ended up with White, ESR and Tomi. That’s not learning?

          He’s repeatedly admitted mistakes, accepted blame, spoken in press conferences and interviews about how it’s been crazy, how much he didn’t know when he started, and how much he’s learned in the first year. I mean, you can believe that he’s lying if you like, but I don’t know what chance that gives him…

          1. I genuinely remember just one time where he accepted blame and that only because it surprised and delighted me, and gave me hope. All his other statements are him saying words like blame me because the players didn’t do what I wanted.

             As for how crazy it’s been and going from Luiz, Willian and Cedric to the current crop, is that learning about himself or is that him buying himself time by claiming it was such a huge job?

             You can suggest my characterisation of him is just based on dislike, but I really liked Arteta the player and captain, and still have respect for that. I really wanted him in the job. Was prepared for years of struggle and growth. Why do you think I dislike him now?

             1. I have no issues with his post-match takes, and I don’t get the sense that he’s unloading the blame on the players. Maybe I need to listen more carefully, but I don’t think it’ll change my perception. Matter of fact, I give him points a lot of the time for being brutally honest about how we played.

             2. Shard, it got to a point where John Cross in the Mirror (yes I know) wrote an article about how Arteta should stop saying sorry.

15. Slightly off-topic… Tim, know anything more about the 2 Americans soon to become Arsenal players? Seems to me that the US is not a bad place to look for goalkeepers. Leno, btw, has been a model pro after losing his place, and not even gettin a proper run in the cups. Let’s enjoy him for 4 months more.

    1. I really don’t watch MLS. Not even the Sounders very often. I have a plan to start going to more Tacoma Defiance teams this year, though.

    2. The keeper is at least decent, if not better than that. Though he will need to work on his ability to play out from the back if he’s ever to start for Arsenal in the current system. Don’t think he’s even as good as Leno on that front. As you say, keeper is the one US position that has historically been strong for regular potential competition in the PL.
       I’d be VERY surprised if the other guy ever actually saw Arsenal game time. I think that was purely a marketing thing to show ties between KSE clubs.

       1. Gooners took it out on the poor guy for Arsenal’s transfer window inactivity; but a name like Austan Trusty is straight out of central casting, and very easy to meme 🙂

16. On the topic of the custodianship and lack of management accountability at the club – Since the 2019 Summer transfer window Arsenal have let 22 players go:

    Left on a free transfer: Wellbz, Rambo, Bramall, The Licht, Mkhi, Macey, Socrates, Chambers

    Contracts fully or partially bought out: Ozil, Mustafi, Willian, Kolasinac, Auba

    Sold for a fee: Monreal (£225k), Asano (£900k), Jenkinson (£2m), Ospina (£3m), Koscielny (£4.5m), Bielik (£7m), Iwobi (£28m base fee), Martinez (£20m), Willock (£26m)

    Takeaways:

    – The level of churn is unprecedented. Come the Summer there will barely be a player left from 3 years ago.
    – The amount of ‘lost’ money through letting players run down their contracts or buying out their contracts is shameful.

    1. i made this same point. some folks denied my claim, suggesting that certain players were of less value than zero. it’s not over, though. lacazette, nketiah, and i believe elneny are out of contract this summer and will walk for free. torreira, who arsenal paid a fortune for, and guendouzi, who’s value has grown significantly, will walk away from arsenal for the price of an egg sandwich. that’s poor management of players that arsenal paid a lot of money for.

       1. I think there’ll be a decision on Pepe also (it’s probably already been made).

          Wouldn’t it be funny if Xhaka was the last man standing (the joke’s on us).

          1. He’s getting pretty close. Who else is that senior? Holding?

             1. Does his new hair qualify him for ‘like a new signing’? 😂

       2. “some folks denied my claim, suggesting that certain players were of less value than zero”

          I don’t know if you mean me, but I made that point in a reply to ClaudeIvan, (I don’t know if other folks did elsewhere) and I stand by it, though I specified *transfer* value. Clubs don’t value players in the same way as fans often do. Their transfer value isn’t simply a measure of their ability: it is intrinsically linked to the terms of the contract that they are on. It’s even down on the club accounts that way – any fees and wages paid get spread across the length of their contract, and every year an equal chunk comes of the books as an amortized loss. A player on a three year deal loses a third of their book value every year.

          So why do transfer fees get paid? The buying club generally either thinks that the player is good enough to be worth it, once a new contract, their age, potential development, and all the rest have been factored in (That or the buying club have a sugar daddy fat with stolen mineral wealth and can go nuts, market inflation be damned, but that’s a different story). But if potential buyers think a player’s performance doesn’t merit the terms they are on, and there’s no reason to expect the player to improve, that player simply has no transfer value. I think Arsenal feel Auba had fallen into that bracket – his performances for Barcelona will tell us if they were right, I guess.

          Beyond that, I agree that the money wasted by the club in recent years has been astronomical. But in most of the really egregious cases MattB listed above, the damage was done when a bad contract was awarded, not when the negative asset (William, Mustafa, Ozil, Kolasinac) got moved on. That’s been the club’s biggest issue, imo, and though I don’t much like the way they’ve gone about getting certain players out, I am glad that the general strategy has switched towards younger players with scope for growth, rather than the inverse.

          1. Completely agree on the last para. There’s been some collective dreadful decision making when it’s come to hires and renumeration.

             I still think we’re paying way over the odds for some talent (TP and BW particularly) and it’s not exactly a true project youth model a la Dortmund who give teenagers a chance and sell them at eye watering profits.

             The other risk with ‘playing the kids’ is that they tend to be less patient and more attractive to bigger clubs. If we don’t get CL this season I can see Saka and Martinelli being approached.

    2. That’s amazing.. we got £2m more for Carl Jenkinson than Auba, Ozil, Ramsey, Welbeck, even Mustafi? The Jenks was truly an Arsenal legend!

17. greg, ray parlour is right and that’s the way it’s supposed to be. the players control the dressing room, not the manager. when wenger got to arsenal, he didn’t come in and impose his authority on tony adams. he acknowledged adams was the leader of the team and actively recruited, getting adams onboard with his vision. when you’ve got senior guys who know how to get it done and you don’t bring them onboard, you’re a fool. that’s not just football but in any business. and regardless of what anyone says about the times being different, whether it was 20 years ago or 200, leadership is still leadership.

    as for someone saying arteta deliberately went about developing a situation that would see auba fail, i don’t recall that. i do recall someone saying the strategies arteta employed were poor for creating chances for aubameyang. that’s more arteta being naive than vindictive. i’m sure he wanted auba to get goals…just didn’t know how.

    1. the problem is that arteta has systematically eliminated all of the senior players from the side. my belief has been that he doesn’t know how to manage superstars or even experienced pros who’ve won under good leadership before and know what it looks like. arteta had players who’ve won championships in england, germany, spain, france and even world cups, champions leagues, african poty, german poty, golden boot winner, etc. he got rid of all those guys who have experience winning and is relying on his own knowledge.

       shard and i agreed on most things and one of the things we agreed was that he tries to lead as a manger the same way he lead as a captain. when i first began coaching, i did the same thing. it’s why he talks so much from the sideline. when i played, i was a cdm and talked to my team mates all game long. it’s very different on the touchline. the worst part of it all, like i alluded to, is that he’s lost all of his senior players and replaced them with youngsters. so, is the 12-year old supposed to lead the 11-year old?

       one of the things shard and i didn’t agree on is wanting arteta to be named manager. i wanted vieira and even preferred emery to arteta. why? arteta had zero experience. he hadn’t even coached a youth team, yet he’s been given the keys to the arsenal car. that’s insane. vieira was the reserve team coach before moving to the mls for a few years. there was a poll conducted where players were asked which mls manager they would like to play for. 48% said vieira and the other 52% were divided by the other 20+ managers. i’ll bet that if they did a similar poll in the bpl, vieira would beat out arteta.

       1. In fairness, he tried to inject some of that experience in Willian, but Willian was either painfully washed or unsuited to the system (which are indictments in and of themselves, but the point here is experience).

          My issue wasn’t Willian (Im not going to go all hindsight on how he turned out to be)… it was giving a 32 y/o a 3 year contract of close to a quarter of a million GBP a week. But I get your point. He already had Willian’s skillset in the experienced and the up and coming, and the club was paying that experienced player even more money. They just decided they wouldn’t use him, not even on the bench to Scunthorpe United. Unnecessary spending piled on financial waste.

          He also extended David Luiz (like Willian someone who’d won titles), and he kept (and kept faith with) Xhaka. So to be fair to him, he did try to work with some experience. Luiz btw, along with Auba and Xhaka, were well respected voices and presences within the dressing room. So at worst, a mixed bag there for Mikel.

          The big failure to me (some of it pre-dating MikEdu) is on financial management, value retention and churn. Apart from the list of 22 that MATTB provides, we’re going to take a bath on Torreira, Guendouzi, Mavropanos and likely Saliba — all highly-regarded young players. We got a combined 64m for Willock, Martinez and Iwobi, but offset that with 55m for White. OTOH, Saka and ESR have exploded their value, and we did really astute business for Odegaard and Tomi. Ramsdale seemed expensive at the time, but boy does he look worth the money.

          Emery famously came with his dossier… these are my plans for the current crop. Mikel approach was different… wholesale change. Im not even going to waste time working wit X, Y and Z. Which is a coach’s prerogative, but the number of players he wasn’t prepared to work with is eyebrow raising, and said more about him than them. Says a lot too about how bad the board of management is to sign off on that level churn and waste, and to oversee such lax contract management. If Arteta leaves in the summer, do they allow another manager to come in and rip up everything again?

          He could have channeled better the experience he already had, but he did try to work it in other ways that were not successful. That’s his own lack of it.

       2. You seem to think that the senior players are not around any more because they were showing too much character.

          I think that they are gone because they weren’t showing enough.

          Arteta wanted his senior players to step up. He publicly asked them to do it on several occasions, he said we needed it. He brought in Willian for his experience. He praised Auba and Laca for their leadership when he could, and he defended Luiz and Xhaka for their mistakes because they carried the respect of the dressing room.

          In the end, it’s the kids who have come through for us.

          This is how I feel, I feel a bit used by all these star players. I’ll get over it ☺️

18. A couple of final points regarding custodianship of the club:

    When Arsene left in 2018 there was a warchest of approximately £150m. That money has been spent.

    In the past four years stadium and structural debt has increased from circa £175m to north of £350m.

    In the most recently published table Arsenal owed the most of all EPL clubs for player acquisitions (transfers – circa £150m).

    That’s at least £500m of debt.

    Basically income has been falling the longer Arsenal are absent from the Champions League and despite the happy noises the club have been making about project youth and reducing the wage bill, debt is increasing faster.

    I don’t know how this is going to end but the indicators are not good.

    1. this was also something I had in mind. this wage bill being slashed. It’s not efficiency, it’s just cutting the squad down. If we don’t make the CL or EL, wages may be kept low instead of attracting big players. Which I’m not sure we really can anyway without the CL.

19. Greg

    I’ve said how I think he apologises. Claude disagrees and so do you. No problem with that. But let’s zoom out a little and most of the story around Arteta has been why he can’t be expected to deliver results, instead of holding him accountable for them. Process, culture, whatever, he’s supposed to manage it all.

    I don’t believe this is an accident. the club has changed its story a couple of times to buy more time. It’s gotten to the point where he just today spoke about our aims from the season being ‘high’ but didn’t specify what it means. It’s a project without goals (in more ways than one)

    Look, I really disagree with the fundamental premise that we needed wholesale changes which you graciously acknowledged as a valid opinion. But of course that’s done. I ought to let it go. I just don’t know what it’s been for, including what it says about the values I cared for, if we’re still making it about culture instead of results and performances.

    I’ll also say, much of the club’s and Arteta’s initial bluster and the purchases of Willian, Cedric etc were based on their SL plans (and possibly related to ties with Joorabchian) They had to make it up on the fly after that. Ok so they went the faux project youth, but I’d argue they weren’t efficient in their spend there too.

    Given that we did spend as much as we did, and all the factors in our favour this season (Mikel was complaining about midweek fixtures last season, which is a bit yikes anyway), I’d say it’s time for him to deliver. And this is why this whole Auba thing feels like another unnecessary and poorly managed distraction to preclude accountability in case we don’t get top 4 or even top 6.

    Seeing as you feel he’s always held himself accountable, my questions for you is when do you think you will feel it’s time for him to either deliver results or go, and what those results should be?

20. I’m thinking in terms of points rather than places, because places are a moving feast. 65 points can get you anything from 3rd to 6th.

    So 61 last season, I don’t think this was good enough and I imagine Arteta was told that in no uncertain terms, but he got away with it because COVID messed everything up and was a huge mitigating factor.

    I think our target should be 70 plus this season. This might be top 4, maybe not depending on teams around us.

    Then I would hope for a midfielder and a striker in the summer, hopefully expensive ones. Then next season raise the target again to at least 80 points, which should guarantee CL.

    In terms of what failure looks like, anything under 65 this season would have to force the board into a decision, and COVID will probably come into it again. And likewise failure to make the CL spots next season.

    Beyond that of course there are intangibles that could get him the sack, losing the dressing room, a string of bad results, or just a feeling of stagnation instead of progress.

    Once we’re in the CL that’s phase 2 complete, phase 3 will be to establish ourselves back there and compete for trophies. I think we’ll need a deeper squad for that, so there will probably be more investment.

    1. I’m feeling chatty, but last thing on this-

       Newly promoted clubs will have the explicit goal of staying up. Clubs at the top of the table will have the explicit goal of winning the league. No other club in between will ever specify a number of points or a league finish to their fans and say “judge the manager on this target, if he misses he’ll be sacked”. It just doesn’t happen and you can’t expect it.

       There will be lots of internal measures of success and failure, some of them football ones, some of them financial ones, some of them strategic planning milestones, and the targets will always be relative not absolute, they will change over the season according to external developments.

       I’m sorry if this is frustrating and if it feels like it’s not transparent but I don’t see any alternative.

       We’re within reach of what I think is a reasonable points target for the season, possibly top 4, which would probably be ahead of the club’s schedule. I can’t see why the club would be making warning noises or setting ultimatums at this point. But things can and do change fast.

21. Last one from me before bed

    Check out Conte’s press conference and see if any of it feels familiar. He’s criticising previous transfer decisions, saying they need to rebuild and it will take time and patience.

    As for waste, he just loaned out Gil and Ndombele, that’s 117m the club sunk on 2 players who he’s now decided won’t cut it.

    Shouldn’t he be using those players and maximising his resources? Is he just not good enough or not experienced enough?

    I obviously don’t know for sure, but if Conte was at Arsenal I think it very likely we’d be going through the same rebuilding process as we are now.

22. Greg
    So we agree on the points. I put my preseason target at 71 points. I don’t think it’s immaterial what position that gets us, and if we’re at 65 and get 4th obviously I won’t complain.

    I disagree that no club will specify what their goal is. You see clubs say we’re aiming for Europe, or the top 4. It’s definitely something we should say if we’re asking people to buy into a project. A project needs a timeframe and a goal to be a project.

    I wouldn’t mind if they said we want top 4, and fail to get there, depending on the causes for that. But we finished 8th and out of Europe for the first time in 25 years. Normally, that alone would be a sackable offense. For them to obfuscate on targets, for the coach to deny chance creation is a problem and blame it on efficiency instead, and then to talk of culture instead of results is a cop out. Yes, I know the Kroenkes are on board with this. I’ve been saying they’ll give him a new contract too regardless of where we end up. I’m just saying this is nonsense.

    As for a comparison with Conte. I thought the reason given against signing a league winning coach with lots of experience was that he’d demand too much money and want to change things up too much? Remember also that he’s at Spurs on an 18 month contract. Both parties are obviously going for a short term goal and IIRC he has mentioned top 4 (I could be wrong though). We on the other hand are talking about a project of unknown length and unknown goals with all the focus on a process or culture.

    Personally, I’d take 6th as the bare minimum and I’d keep Arteta into the next season with it. Anything lower and I’d sack him, regardless of circumstances now because he’s not giving the team the best chance to succeed. If he gets 4th he might deserve a new deal, though I’d still hold off and see how he deals with a busier schedule and if we can upgrade on him too as the next step in ‘the project’. Results aside, we’ve barely played good attacking football in all his time here. It all needs to be better.

    1. Absolutely Arteta is one of the disposable parts of the project, my current guess is that top 4 may be his ceiling, so if and when we get there and reinvest, manager might be one of the positions we reinvest in.

       My fear about some of the experienced coaches was that they would come in on shorter contracts, with zero loyalty or interest in the long term health of the club. So instead of investment in sustainability and rebalancing the wage bill we would see short term and stop gap fixes all over the place, more overpaid contracts to more overvalued players… In other words it’s not about the upheaval it’s about the choices, purpose and strategy behind it.

       I was pro Arteta for the hire mainly because what he lacks on experience (I personally feel) he made up for in love for the club, understanding of the values and the appetite to tackle the issues.

       I’m keyed up for the second half of this season. We’ve got a young side with loads of talent who recently bossed Man City in a way I haven’t seen for 5 or 10 years, we’ve got masses of positive energy all around the club, including a re-energised and younger matchday crowd, we’re within reach of CL places, it’s on a knife edge but it’s all to play for. The joy is right there to be had, The Process (TM) is all about rediscovering it and I’m gutted for you that you seem to be missing out on it.

       I know we are all a bit bruised from the last 15 years of disappointment and of course I respect how you feel. But I know you love the club and I would love to celebrate with you on here about all of this.

       I feel like I’m in your face a bit on this thread so I’ll back off for a bit, but if you’re feeling down let me know and I will slap you about the face with naive relentless positivity, just maybe not when we’re still on 45 points with 3 games to play.

       1. Hah! I’d be doing the slapping then.

          Greg, I know we’ve had a dust up of sorts in the past, but I promise you, I’m not usually quick to take offense. Please don’t worry about coming across aggressively. I think we’re ok, even if we do differ on ‘the process’

          I was ok with the past 15 years actually. Except about a year of Emery and a year and a half of Arteta. I don’t believe in this process and I especially don’t believe it’s adhered to the values I loved about this club. All I’m saying now is, prove there’s some worth to this. Play some good football. Get good results. As we’re all about demanding standards now, it’s about time they apply to management too.

       2. Fulham are giving Man City a good game, including controlling equal shares of the possession, and superior xG.

          1. Interesting

    2. Excellent point on Conte. If we’re to take this summer’s 180m ‘war chest’ seriously (hah), Arsenal will have spent in the region of 400 million over three summers.

       Can anyone say with a straight face that Ancelotti/Ten Hag/Galtier/Sarri/Howe/Tuchel (look at that range of options!) wouldn’t have (a) been willing to commit for that sort of outlay and (b) done far better with it?

23. Shard.

    I understand the manager is the captain of the ship and he is ultimately going to be blamed is results don’t meet expectations. However, there is only so much he can do. He can’t create chances or score the goals. There is no tactical solution that will change players who have not been scorers or assist creators throughout their careers to players who can do those things. Arsene was successful in keeping the squad in the top 4 for all of those years but always had players like Fabregas, RVP, Sanchez, Ozil, Cazorla who could execute his game plans and score the goals and create the assists he needed. Once those players started to fade in the last couple years of Arsene’s time we felll out of the top 4. Arsene tried for years to turn players like Welbeck, Walcott, Bendtner, Ox, Iwobe into consistent scorers and assist creators but it never worked. Martinelli, Saka, ESR have potential but that does not help us now and no matter how you slice it those players are not Sanchez, Ozil, Cazorla or Fabregas. You can blame Arteta and Edu for not building a strong enough squad but expecting Arteta to do something Arsene was never able to do and come up with tactical solution that turns them into scorers and assist creators or somehow help Auba outsmart Father Time is just not realistic.

    1. We don’t score goals because Arteta has them in gaol.

24. Shard

    In the last 15 yeas of his tenure Arsene had some of the most creative teams in the world and he tried harder then any big team manager in the but could not take players players who were not into consistent scorers. You can’t realistically expect Arteta to do something Arsene could never do.

    1. A player is a consistent goal scorer if he consistently scores goals. A player is not a consistent scorer if he doesn’t. Irrefutable logic. But how about we apply the same logic to the manager?

       It is the manager’s job to deliver both results and performances. No player can turn a manager unable to consistently deliver results and performance, into a manager who consistently delivers results and performance.

25. In order for a team to be a top 4 team it needs a critical mass of players who can score goals and create assists. The lesson we learned from the last 15 years of the wenger era is even a really good managers don’t turn players who are scorers or assistors into players who do those things regularly. I can’t prove it but I don’t think there is any way Arsenes teams would have scored enough goals to keep his top 4 streak if he would have had Saka ESR and odegaard instead of Sanchez ozil and Cazorla. Saka ESR odegaard Martinelli are good players with potential but they are not type of star players who can carry a team the way Sanchez ozil and cazorla could. You can blame the clubs management and the manager for not acquiring the firepower we need but calling Arteta’s on field management a failure because he misses the top 4 when he doesn’t have the star power to carry a team is unreasonable

26. “I disagree that no club will specify what their goal is. You see clubs say we’re aiming for Europe, or the top 4. It’s definitely something we should say if we’re asking people to buy into a project. A project needs a timeframe and a goal to be a project.”

    Shard, absolutely !

    Klopp gave specific goals and timelines for his Liverpool tenure and they didn’t have to come from the club.
    His most striking one was: ”If we don’t win the league in next four years I will have failed”

    Top four was his immediate goal.

    1. I knew Klopp was a motivated manager, didn’t know of this four year thing (widely available quote once I searched for it). That just sums up the difference, doesn’t it?

       Arteta may have similar standards internally, his devotees certainly don’t. They just drop the word project/process, and can’t seem to understand why anyone would expect a little more.

27. BILL: “There is no tactical solution that will change players who have not been scorers or assist creators throughout their careers to players who can do those things.”

    Im sure that if I dug deeper, Liverpool Mohamed Salah and City Kevin de Bruyne wouldnt be the only instances I would find of this being wrong. They didnt become the players they did on their own. If you hate Mourinho, another reason to do so is that better tacticians, Klopp and Pep, got more out of two of the finest talents in the British game than he did.

    And speaking of Klopp, no one raged against the machine better than he did at BVB. He regularly overcame the goalscoring and resources might of Bayern, and that is what made him one of the hottest managerial properties in football. How? His tactical smarts enabled him to get far more out of his his resources.

    You regularly say that Arteta “can’t create chances or score the goals”, but you say in the next breath that that he has made our defenders/defence better. To use your imagery about the strikers, he didnt run onto the field and yank Gabriel into position, or block a goalbound shot himself. Consistency, Bill. Tim has explained, exhaustively, the relationship between out xG and our actual output.

    Your base argument is right though. If we had prime Van Persie, our chances of scoring more goals would improve, and with it our chances of winning matches. Exceptional strikers create their own shot, as they say in basketball.

    This is precisely what Lewis Ambrose said of the Aubameyang of Arteta’s first year. He got joint golden boot and did more than any other player to win us a trophy despite the manager’s attacking tactical shortcomings. It’s not me saying that. It’s one of the best deep dive analysts around.

28. Claude.

    I think the ability of managers to turn average players into top scorers or creators is over rated and even if there are some who can do it they are rare. I am not suggesting Pep is not a great manager because there certainly have been managers who had great financial support and failed. However at each stop Pep has the luxury of buying dozens of high dollar players and if one fails like Pepe, he can go on and buy 2 more until he finds one that can do what he wants. Even if what you say is correct about Klopp and Pep then how many managers like them are there in the world and where can find one? We can;’t hire Pep or Klopp so how do we find an lesser know manager who can do what they do? We would hire and fire several dozen managers and still probably not find one that can live up to the standard of being as good as Pep and Klopp.

    I have formed my opinions watching Arsenal for most of this century. The majority of us believe Arsene was a very good manager and playing for his teams provided a chance rich environment and Arsene was focused on doing everything he could to develop his own superstars from the ground up. Despite what should have been an ideal environment, basically all of highly rated youth players and many of the more experienced players we bought never developed into consistent scorers.

    1. Youre changing the subject.

       It isn’t Pep’s financial resources (though I’m sure that a help). It is about how, under him and Klopp, KDB and Salah who are now among the best in the English game, transformed their offensive output. You said it doesn’t happen, and I’m showing that it does. A look at their goalscoring/assist charts shows the difference even more starkly. They were virtually zero at Mourinho’s Chelsea.

       Looks to me like that was a guess on your part.

    2. Bill, also noticed that your argument morphed from

       “players who have not been scorers or assist creators throughout their careers to players who can do those things”

       to

       “average players into top scorers or creators”

       I’m sure it was unintentional, but you must know that you’re saying something different 2nd time around, right? 🙂 One love, brother.

29. Rumour has it that we’re after Djed Spence (on loan at Forest from Boro) to back up Tomi. Well the kid just put 10m on his transfer fee, with Forest’s 4th goal against Leicester. Theyre the real deal, aren’t they? And if you remember, Spence caused Nuno and Tierney nightmares all afternoon when they beat us. Damn them… should have been us out there now (I kid. Well played again, Forest)

30. Claude.

    You can quibble with the way is phrase the idea but it does not change the point i am trying to make and I suspect you understand what i am saying .

    You at least accept that the team can score more goals if it has better scorers like RVP on the squad. For some reason very few on the blog seem to even accept something that seems as obvious at that. It feels like most seem to think a manager should be able to take any group of players and get them to score plenty of goals. To me that makes no sense.

    To me the fact that Arteta has us in contention for a top 4 spot with a squad as short of firepower as ours seems like a very solid job of on field management

    1. “It feels like most seem to think a manager should be able to take any group of players and get them to score plenty of goals”

       Zero people have made that argument, but carry on with the ‘firepower’ takes

    2. Aubameyang, Lacazette and Pepe is short of firepower? I’d love to see the goalscoring machines we bring in in the summer. From what I understand, we’re happy to shell out record fees on guys who’ve had one (maybe 1.5) good goal-scoring season.

       He’s buying players for loyalty and unquestioning obedience, not ability. Happily, last summer’s haul also had ability. But that doesn’t mean the outgoing ones don’t. It just means they’re not “his” guys.

    3. No my bro. I was not being pedantic. I just noted that the two things you said are different from each other. The discussion was never about average players, however you want to define that.

       Look, I get it. You don’t think that any blame can be attached to the coach for a failure to score, which is a fair enough point. But when you go on to say that coaches can’t improve forward players, you found yourself on a sticky wicket. The examples I gave were off the top of my head, thinking about it for 2 seconds. I dont feel like going hunting for others.

       You go to such great lengths to absolve Mikel and say tactics dont really make a difference, but then you credit him for improving the defence. Pick an argument.

       My own position is that he deserves credit for tightening up at the back, playing out from the back better, making Xhaka a more effective contributor, improving Pepe’s play briefly towards the end of last season (Saka’s emergence put paid to that), effective deployment of Ode at the 10, and even for the emergence of ESR. In fairness you’d also have to point out that his attacking tactics haven’t got the best out of our strikers, as Tim’s analyses have consistently shown. An analyst recent noted Auba defensively harrying a team’s attacking full back near his own corner flag. That’s nuts.

       I think that arguments become unstuck when we go all in, one way or the other.

31. PRVHC

    Laca and Pepe are the only 2 players on the squad who have ever scored more then 10 goals in a season in their entire career. Right now those 2 players are on pace to score a combined 5.3 goals in 38 games this season. Someone has to score the goals but We’re counting on a group of players who have hardly ever scored in their careers to carry the load. No one may have made the argument in those exact words but expecting the manager to somehow make this into a team that can score a lot is certainly implying that he should be able to any group of players and get them to score plenty of goals.

32. I suspect you understand the point I am making. If you don’t like the term “firepower” then suggest a different more acceptable term to describe it and I will be happy to change.

    1. “I suspect you understand the point I am making”

       If your point is “better players score more goals” it’s a truism not worth discussing.

       This will be my last submission to you on this subject (I’m assuming you’re aware of chess principles , but this is the best analogy I can come up with)

       I’m chess, having material (stronger and more pieces) advantage is generally preferable. But moving the pieces in the right way at the right time is equally, arguably more, important than having more material. If you’re attacking and have a better position, you can win even with a material disadvantage. A grandmaster will almost always beat an amateur with severe material handicap, because he knows how to get the most out of his pieces.

       Hope you got what I’m trying to convey

33. I understand your point but how many grandmaster level managers who are so smart they can consistently with material disadvantage? This seems to me like a case of unrealistic expectations and if that is the standard then we may never be happy with anyone we can hire.

    Using your analogy all the managers that many would consider the grand masters of their profession all happen to work for clubs which give them the luxury of also having a material advantage.

    1. Talking about unrealistic expectations while declaring that most of the Arsenal squad is unfit for Arteta’s purposes… hmm. We’ll just have clearouts every other year at this rate.

       Whether the player of the manager lacks quality will vary situationally. In this one, the players have an actual track record of performing well for the club in difficult circs, the manager has none.

34. bill, you’re not to being honest. in the last 15 years of wenger’s reign, he bought in players like van persie, adebayor, ramsey, and alexis who weren’t proven goal scorers but scored a lot of goals for arsenal. likewise, he brought in the likes of chamakh, giroud, aubameyang, and lacazette who were proven goal scorers and also scored goals for arsenal. your argument is fake.

    lastly, if the manager is not responsible for getting all of these talented players the club has paid tens of millions of pounds signing, players who have a reputation for being great goal scorers and play makers, to score goals, tell us what you believe the responsibility of the manager is?

35. Josh.

    I think you are the one who is mistaken. You mentioned Ramsey but he averaged <5 league goals/season in his last 8 seasons after he recovered from his major injury. That is not a lot of goals.

    In the last 2/3 of his tenure Arsene had dozens and dozens and dozens of heavily hyped academy and many very highly rated younger players he bought and not a single one developed into a consistent scorer. Now you are asking Arteta in 3 years to turn Saka ESR and martinelli in consistent high scorers who will have to carry the teams scoring burden when Arsene couldn’t do that in 15 years of trying. That is just not a realistic thing to expect from any manager.

    1. the purpose of the academy is to develop players for the first team. most won’t make it regardless of the hype. if the manager can’t develop academy graduates to effective first team players, they turn to the transfer market, which is where most first team players are acquired. the point is you don’t want to lose a player with potential. after all, all professionals were in an academy somewhere. the manager tries to avoid a serge gnabry situation, where you have a guy in the academy but you let him get away and he performs well for a different club.

36. Josh

    I agree with all of that. One of the lessons we should have learned from watching the project youth era is not even Arsene or the professional scouts and talent evaluators are very good at predicting which prospects will live up to their potential. If those guys who do spend all of their time and are well paid and have the advantage of hundreds of hours watching them in person and on film can’t make accurate predictions then no one can. The other thing we should have learned is the vast majority of even the most heavily hyped and talented prospects don’t develop into the star players we hoped they would which is why I think its a low percentage strategy to try and build a team around the idea that Saka. ESR and Martinelli are all going to develop into star players that can carry our team.

    IMO, Arsene did a fantastic job of avoiding missing out on potential prized prospects. The fact there were probably more then 100 talented prospects that he let go but there is only one players like Serge Gnabry that we really wish we had back is an amazing record. The problem is there are so many prospects and they develop at different. It took RVP 7-8 years in the PL to to develop into a star player. The only way to avoid a Serge Gnabry situation is to give all of the those players enough game time over a period of years to see what happens and there is no way you can do that when you are competing for trophies and champions league spots. Fans always suggest we need to be patient with young players like Guendouzi but the problem Arsene had was he kept a lot of players who never lived up to their potential around and gave them valuable minutes such as Bendtner, Gibbs, Denílson, Song Ox, Iwobe and avoided buying a better player because he did not want to block them. How many years were Ox and Iwobe on the cusp of greatness. When you use a player like Bendtner instead of buying someone better it makes it harder for the team to win stuff.

37. This is a big game for me. Odds are it will be a low-scoring affair but anything could happen.

    Wolves are in the best form in the league at the moment. Bruno Lage getting lots of plaudits for the way he’s set them up and made them hard to beat. Best defence apart from City, they are unbeaten in the league since 11 Dec, during which run they held Chelsea to a 0-0 draw at home and beat Man U away. Traore is gone which is good news, but they will have Neves / Moutinho vying for control with Partey / Xhaka and on current form I’m not sure which midfield will come out on top of that. We might go wide / long and bypass that area.

    On our side, we have had a good rest, and we are now in the post-Auba era with all the uncertainty that entails. All the talk has been about our strikers, but I can see Martinelli having a good game, especially at 0-0. I’m more nervous about our defence. If Tomi is out, even more so. Against a good defensive team all it takes is an error or lapse in concentration at the back and if we go down a goal they will drop off and we will find it very hard to come back.

    Quick look at the table and I kind of love it. There are 5 teams fighting for 4th, and Chelsea could even get dragged back into it. If Brighton had finished a couple more chances it would be 6 teams all with a realistic chance of CL.

    Arsenal and Spurs have identical results after 21 games, we’re ahead on goal difference only. Wolves almost identical as well – a draw instead of a win is all that separates us.

    2 games in hand over Utd and 3 over West Ham and Chelsea. Win all three games and we would be 2 points behind Chelsea. This race is going all the way and everyone is going to be raising their game, so we have to as well, and we could really set down a marker tonight.

38. Greg

    Auba has not been giving us a much positive influence for 1 1/2 years. I can’t really see how sending him to Barca really makes a whole lot of difference.

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