Proof

111 comments

1. Arteta will never sign a player from Africa again(whatever you make of this statement is very much upto you.) Next on the chopping board is Pepe. He has to go whatsoever. Either by being frustrated, maligned like Ozil & Auba or forced away.
   We will finish at best, 7th.

   1. Never signing a player from Africa again would be a self-defeating, unjustifiable and unprecedented step to take. You dont offer a reason, and we should probably be thankful for that.

      To Tim’s points, we have 2 scheduled games in February — three if the delayed NLD is replayed then. We have only the premier league to concentrate on; but even so, relying on current stock is risky. Even at 1 game a week, we risk injury to Lacazette. It’s not inconceivable that 2 or more of our forwards could get injured at one time.

      Shortage of stock is Arteta’s get out of jail card in case of another underwhelming finish; but I’m not prepared to let him off lightly. 6th, 7th, 8th can be rationalised, all things being equal. He has no European grind and no tough scheduling because of cup competition, and the highest spending at the start of the season. The club gave him what he wanted in terms of personnel, and agreed to his outgoings and churn in terms of loans and sales. He should be mounting a no-excuses, credible campaign for 4th, or he should be made to vacate the seat if he can’t. If under these conditions Mikel cant manage us to the CL, he never will, no matter how much money and time you give him.

      But (if the reports of his being offered a contract extension are true) the owners might well be happy with us settled in the middle of the pack. They seem to like him, and to not be overly bothered by his limitations, or the club’s standing. If that is so, it is time to face the reality that improvement in our position is impervious to what we actually do in the market.

      Auba? I didnt think Barcelona was likely either, given their very bad financial position. But a laon move to a club of their stature would be a great move for him. And it would buy him time for a more logistically disruptive permanent move in the summer.

      (btw, good luck with your Rams on Championship Sunday, though, Stan and Josh)

      1. A. Ferguson didn’t sign any post Q. Fortune. Even Wenger After Song Adebayo. The excuse was AFCON. For Arteta, he’s got to hire players who will worship him. We are mediocrity personified.

         1. Elneny & Auba were Wenger era signings.

         2. Gervinho!! No one loved working with African players than Wenger. But he was very cautious of how many he had.

2. Agree with most of it. I’d just point out that if we don’t finish top 4, none of our striking options are going to get cheaper in the summer. Unless we buy cheap(ish) and turn it into gold, which requires a good manager. But a good manager would get us top 4 with this squad. What a lovely circular mental journey that was.

   Honestly, I thought coming into this window that we’d prioritise a midfielder, keep AMN and move Xhaka. Once we moved AMN, we needed two mids and to move Xhaka. The fact that we’re ending a window where we’ve sold every Arsenal player since the Graham era but still not Xhaka is far more obscene than not getting in a striker.

   1. Do you actually rate AMN higher than Xhaka? For me Xhaka is different level but he does have some faults which are very costly. For me AMN was a decent backup player at his best, but maybe we just see things differently

      1. We seem to, yeah. Xhaka isn’t a great passer, it’s mostly dubious stats hype. And you can almost hear him think “the world will change before I do” (which probably endears him to Arteta).

         AMN has limitations too, but he has good mix of physical and technical abilities, he’s younger and an academy product. It’s not a stretch to see him as a 24 year old version of Partey, or what Bissouma would’ve been if he came through fighting for minutes at a big club.

      2. Yes, i’d take amn over xhaka in a heartbeat.

3. So you think a mid table finish gets you a world class midfielder and striker with the club’s finances as is? Ok.

4. Shame we couldn’t get Vlahovic, as he looks the real deal, but worth waiting till summer if noone of equal potential available now, and Isak’s stats don’t suggest he falls into that bracket.
   I’d be happy to give Eddie and Laca the responsibility now, and especially to see if a run in the team would give Eddie the confidence to reproduce his Carabao cup and U-21 form for us and enable the “Eddie, Eddie” chant to be resurrected.

5. And interesting to speculate what Auba did wrong to warrant the ‘ship him out at any cost’ treatment. It’s got to be more than being perenially late for training – is there a |ivan Toney type film clip doing the rounds?

   1. I really don’t understand what the problem with Auba was. I just don’t like this Arsenal. Players are no longer leaving happily.

6. I just wish the club had come out and said “This is the plan for this window” (If, indeed, it was the plan all along). Clear the decks now ready for a big summer (when Laca and Eddie will also have gone).

   I also hope that Nico comes back from AFCON with his confidence restored and he really puts in for us (as we know he can).

7. As things stand its rather wise to reintergrate Auba and push for top 4 than to push him out at all costs. If we lose top 4 this season it’s going to be really hard to compete for top 4 esapecially considering how Newcastle FC are willing to spend l fear Arsenal are clearly going to finish around 7th / 8th at best going forward. Arteta n Edu’s ideas are right only if other factors are held constant eg rivals spending or other teams improving, miss this season then it’s going to be worse .

   1. “As things stand its rather wise to reintergrate Auba and push for top 4 than to push him out at all costs”

      Arteta : We don’t do that here

8. this is insane. while i won’t argue that not replacing auba won’t be a big deal, i will argue that arsenal are allowing their best goal scorer and a fantastic resource to leave when they need goals; all because of what seems like a personal problem between that player and the manager. let me say this to be clear to everyone that thinks i hate arteta. i don’t hate anyone. i will admit that i’m not a fanboy of his. he did not make a favorable first impression.

   my first impression with him was his first press conference where he went on about how the culture of the club is wrong, a list of non-negotiables, and everyone is the same. how can you know the culture of the locker room on your first day? how can you have non-negotiables when you have zero experience as a manger and don’t yet know what’s negotiable?

   however, my biggest gripe; in what business can you walk in the door and treat people with tenure the same as you treat interns? i live in south georgia and the kids have a saying: “where they do dat at”? the answer is nowhere! it’s great to have the support of the board but, when it’s time to go to war, those suits aren’t going to be there. it’s nice to have guys with battle-hardened experience to lead your talented youngsters. young guys will always have talent but they haven’t learned how to win tough games yet. they couldn’t even win a tough game against nottingham forrest. arteta has to learn that, as manager, he can’t lead them on the field anymore.

   it’s the same for the locker room. the senior guys run the locker room, not the manager. if you antagonize and disrespect those superstars, they will undermine you in the locker room and you won’t be able to call on their experience when you need it. this is why arteta has beef with so many experienced players in the locker room. you’ll blame the players but all that was needed was a show of respect from the manager to the senior players. they were his biggest asset. now, arsenal have the youngest team in the league.

   there’s a difference between being a leader and being a boss. people refer to him as don mikel. guess what? the don can’t run the family without senior lieutenants he can count on when it’s time to go to war. before, arteta had league winners in various top leagues in europe. he even had world cup winners. now, all he has who’s won anything of note is lacazette. it’s his fault that he failed to treat those experienced players with the proper respect.

   1. “…while i won’t argue that not replacing auba won’t be a big deal, i will argue that arsenal are allowing their best goal scorer and a fantastic resource to leave when they need goals; all because of what seems like a personal problem between that player and the manager”.

      This.

      And again I ask… if we are chasing a draw or a win, would you rather see Auba or Eddie coming off the bench? But hey, it could be a moot point soon

      i’m kind of stunned by the alacrity with which gooners have accepted this. We deserve the management we have.

   2. thanks

   3. Exactly this. This just seems crazy, pettiness taken to the extreme to the detriment of the team. And not for the first time with Don Mikel. We are going in to the back half of the season with a great shot at finishing in the champions league spots. And we voluntarily weakened our squad dramatically instead of reinforcing. It’s mad.

9. what’s up with these footballers in manchester thinking they can get away with rape? greenwood looks likely to be joining mendy in prison. i don’t get it. as a footballer, there are plenty of women that will easily give it up. in my 20-year old mind, i’d tell the girls that don’t want to give it up to “piss off and tell your friend to come here”.

   i know i seemed like an asshole, which i was, but damn! i’m not raping anybody. i don’t get it. this isn’t greenwood’s first time in trouble either.

   1. apparently, they were dating for a few years and it’s always been tumultuous. good luck to the kid.

      1. ???

         Maybe I’m misreading your comment but it sounds like you might be suggesting that a tumultuous relationship makes rape and assault less serious.

         Just to be clear, when you say ‘good luck to the kid’ you’re not talking about girl who says she’s been raped, you’re talking about the guy accused of raping her?

         1. Sorry in my last comment replace you’re not talking about with ‘are you talking about…’

            1. I wish I could edit my comment

               Basically I’d like to change my last sentence to be in the spirit of a question as opposed to an accusation.

               Thanks

10. big up to elneny getting to another afcon final.

11. We seem to have this thing of having a clearout in January, even of players who would otherwise be gone in the summer. Even if it means paying them off. I don’t get it really.

    We will probably also pay the release clause for a player on deadline day though (Isak seems to be the popular choice right now)

    I wouldn’t mind if we signed no one. I’ve been saying all along Arteta needs to earn his coin by coaching, not by finding convenient excuses to keep raiding the coffers all in the name of some project which they dare not set any public targets or timelines to.

    I have to wonder if Edu and Arteta are on the same page as well. Edu would need to sign someone to say he was doing his job. But if it’s not the prime target, Arteta would have his reputation protected by no one coming in. Such are the potential pitfalls of transfers by committee.

    Also, what did Kroenke tell him? Are we going for top 4 because we have a chance? Or is reducing the wage bill an acknowledgment that we’re prepared to finish out of Europe again?

    Me, I think we’re wasting our time with this thing. We’re getting worse from what I can see. At potentially quite an alarming rate at that. And everyone just seems cool with it. All because of a belief that Arsenal will just get better.

    there’s no guarantee of it, just like there wasn’t when Wenger took over. the longer we spend outside the CL, the less likely we are to climb back up. It’ll be 6 years if we don’t manage it this year. With no European matches and the highest spend. Next year we’ll have the excuse of the World Cup disruptions.

    Arteta loves saying other teams are 4-5 years ahead of us in building the team, then destroys the team he builds up himself to go further back and start again. We’ll be like Liverpool if we’re not careful. Not the league and CL winners. But a team 30 years removed from a league title.

    1. We could still make the Top 4 though, or at least Top 6. Klopp had to do a massive rebuild at Liverpool, helped largely by the Coutinho money.

       We have to lower the salary bill, and nobody should be on north of £250k a week ever again. Compare what we pay to others. Kane is on less than £150k.

       I can see what Arteta and Edu are trying to do though, build a YOUNG squad with a few senior players dispersed amongst them. Not the other way round.

       For all the money Newcastle are spending, it won’t guarantee them Premier League survival.

       I keep saying, IF we go big this summer, I’ll be happy with that – but it will need to result in a Top 4 finish next season.

       1. Yes, we could. I hope we do finish top 4. Auba was signed to a contract last year and they held a whole live stream and event out of it. It’s like they keep changing the plan to whatever will buy them more time simply on the faith that there’s a plan.

          Higher wages are the price you pay for success. We’re reducing it because we’re no longer a CL club. If we succeed, we’ll need to pay higher wages or lose players, or have them underperform because they are unhappy.

          Go young. To what end though? We signed Cedric and Mari and Willian. We had the option of keeping some or all of Saliba, Mavro, AMN, Willock, Nelson, Guendouzi, Bellerin, and using that money to add key/top players in positions of need. I honestly can’t figure out what the aim is here except primarily to change the squad up, which buys more time before results are expected. Especially when the manager talks up stability of teams ahead of us.

          1. My thoughts exactly. Nicely put Shard.

             1. X2

          2. How you lads keep thinking there is a correlation between money and success leaves me baffled. Yes there might be signs of that but I believe totally is that money and good football buys you that.

             If Wenger had spent especially where he needed it he would have won a trophy instead he chose to stick to Giroud not that he did not try sign Benzema.

             With all the money in the world if our football remains very little expressive, we will remain only in the top four.

             Klopp and Pep has proved to me that it is money and good footbal especially for the very long run.

12. 1. I don’t mind Aubameyang going without a replacement. I’m 99% certain none of us know the story behind the scenes.
    2. I prefer the club keep its powder dry and not feel pressured to make a signing they are less than convinced by. They tried for Vlahovic, it was a shot and it didn’t work. Isak and David aren’t leaving their clubs in January. So just wait then and make the right purchase in July.
    3. We need a replacement for Xhaka and Elneny. But not this January. For me, Wijnaldum on loan would have been perfect. No long term commitment, just a very solid experienced professional to come lend a hand.
    4. The second half of the season I would live to see us try and get Pepe integrated more. If not as an outright striker, use him as RF and try Saka as a false 9. He can score. We may have a short term internal solution already.

    I don’t think our push for 4th is contingent on getting a striker in. 4th will need us to a) stay healthy, b) get points off Wolves, Man U and Spurs (I think West Ham are fading) and c) keep our heads up. There will be slips (like draws against Burnley) but so long as they don’t become prolonged dips in form, we can be in the race come the final 5-6 games. That’s when the rubber will hit the road.

    1. “I’m 99% certain none of us know the story behind the scenes.”

       I see what you did there, Jack. Guesswork to decry guesswork 🙂

       Pepe suggestion has some merit, but Saka as a false 9? Jeebus. The one thing that’s working better than most is our right flank.

       Im with Josh. This is a kind of “king’s new clothes” moment, where the obvious is obvious, but we seek to overcomplicate the simple.

13. I have to admit I’m quite baffled by what this blog has become in the last few months. This line in today’s post pretty much sums it up:

    “This season is a building season and for me the targets were to improve Smith Rowe, Saka, and Ødegaard – while Mikel Arteta also improved tactically and managerially. I think Arsenal have done all of those things, except the part where Mikel has improved as a manager.”

    So the players improved, but the coach coaching them had nothing to do with it, no sirree. Right. Part of a coach’s job is to develop talent, but we’re refusing to give the coach credit for the clear improvements these players have made. Ok.

    For the first time since late Wenger we have a team that an actually hold the ball in midfield, make intricate passes, control possession. Not always, and it’s not perfect, but it’s better than anything we’ve seen in years in that regard. For the first time in years we have a defense which is not a complete embarrassment. Yes, we can’t score, and this is a big problem. We saw in December that maybe it isn’t terminal, but it’s too soon to tell.

    Things aren’t perfect, but they’re better than they’ve been in a while. But the main argument seems to be that Arteta is a jerk. Ok.

    I don’t agree with the treatment of Auba. It’s inconceivable that there isn’t more to the story, but with zero leaks, it may be down to Arteta being a dictator, as you say. I’m not cool with that. With Ozil the stories were his attitude, etc. but a lot of that was club leaks, etc., so who knows. Both cases sort of stunk.

    We’ve cleared a lot of deadwood. Players who have gone, for the most part, were not good enough to fill in. I’m okay with most of them. I’d have let Cedric instead of Chambers go, but contracts and all.

    Going the rest of the season with no incomings in a risk. It may pay off? I don’t think we ought to get someone in a panic, unless it is a loan, but there don’t seem to be many easy loans at the moment. We’ll see.

    It’s just weird the animosity towards Arteta around here. This has usually been a clear-eyed blog, but sometimes opinions and prejudices tend to stick, which is unfortunate. It’s starting to remind of late-Wenger Le Grove. Not entirely, not yet, but the continual brushing off of the fact we’re not doing too badly this season – above your own expectations, so far – in favor of ‘Arteta is a douche’ is just baffling.

    1. I understand this view. A whole lot of these arguments would be avoided if we all just knew what the club’s targets are. How do we gauge whether all their actions make sense unless we know what their aim is. It’s a conscious decision on their part and they’ve even tried to use it to suggest there’s a better class of supporter (not fan) who just buys in without knowing or understanding their reasoning.

       the arguments against seem to spread to wide a net, where everything is criticised, and to me, the arguments in support seem ever shifting. I want to buy in. Indeed I did when Arteta was first announced and for many months after. It just seems to me like they don’t really know either or they fear it’s too bad to share.

       1. Just to add. We had the supporters and even the coach last season talk about the league table since Boxing Day, we had both say how midweek European nights are a distraction, and how we needed to spend to support a generational coach. Hyperbole or not, I see no reason to not demand a return to the CL with all the things we have going for us this season. Instead we’re all trying to justify lowering our expectations, both for the results and for the quality of our performances.

          1. I hear you. Not much about the club has made sense for a while now, less so now. It’s why I’ve backed away a bit in the last few years – lots invested on my part, and for what? I’ve had some home this season – still do – and I’ve gotten a bit sucked in again.

             Some hopeful signs – I think Arteta has started to improve this season, we’ve seen some shrewd investment – but also worrying signs as well. Thank you for talking sense.

    2. zed, i think you’re confusing coaching with management. they are not the same thing. coaching is about the technical and tactical development of a player’s talent. management is about the most efficient and economical use of resources to reach an objective or goal.

       i don’t recall many on here being critical of arteta as a coach. he proved that was his bag at man city. as a manager is where arteta falls short. he hasn’t really proven he can maximize the very expensive resources that arsenal has acquired while minimizing wasted money and confusion with the team.

       with that, is he condemned to eternal damnation? not yet; the jury is still out. however, if arsenal don’t finish in the top 4, it will cause me to believe he’s incapable of getting the job done.

       1. I think that’s fair. Leadership/coaching/management is a complicated gig that is not easily measured. I can get on board with his technical coaching leading to improvements – and that was by no means a given even in the fall. At one point I was firmly Arteta out because 2 years or whatever in, I saw cowardly, defense-first football. No attempt to move beyond the defensive base he built, it seemed the archetype was Moyes. Things have changed since then and we may well regress, but I’m a bit hopeful.

          The personal part is also tough to crack. A lot of commentary on how he seems a dictator, a bully, and I can see that, but when I watch these press conferences where he is supposedly icy or short or whatever, I don’t see it. I see him being serious and focused.

          The Auba thing may prove too much for me to ever really like him, regardless of future success. Ozil and Guendouzi seemed like clear bad eggs. But Auba? It just seems vindictive and petty. We’ll see.

    3. I mean… Le Grove was going after a manager who had us regularly in the Champions League. Oh and who won quite a lot, including one virtually unprecedented in English football. Arteta’s only title may as well be called the P-EA trophy.

       Saka et al. have improved because they’re young – gaining experience and physical development accounts for most of it. At some point they’ll hit a wall, at which juncture they’ll seek out someone who can actually improve them.

       Arteta deserves credit for keeping relentless pressure on the Kroenkes to spend. I mean that seriously. But also he shares that credit with Arsenal twitter.

    4. That’s not how I read the line you quote, Zed.

       Contrary to how you read it — it IS giving Arteta credit for improving those young players. ” I think Arteta (has) done all those things” could not be clearer.

       Here’s what’s happening at Arsenal. There’s a lot of division, and it’s being reflected here. Some — like yourself — try to be evenhanded. Everywhere — not just here — I see folks not only refusing to countenance criticism of Mikel, but actually becoming angered by it. What gives? Most of the criticism I see being reacted to is not mindless AOB stuff. It is criticism that is merited. One can disagree with it, but it’s not mindless stuff, nor, some have said. are the critics “haters”, a term we should leave to our teenagers.

       The club is a long, long way from being the club we loved and adopted in every way you can imagine. At the top table of English football, well run financially and footballistically, frugal and value-led, in terms of the standing in which it held by other players, where we finished the last 2 seasons, the quality of the football and the internal mudslinging. A lot is rotten at Arsenal, and some of the people given license to remove the rot, are, in my opinion, themselves a leading cause of it.

       The club wasn’t like this, even in the worst, most divisive days of Wenger.

       1. Thank you for that reasoned response, Claude. A lot of good points in there.

          I’ve stepped away from the Arsenalverse of late – no AFTV (never has been), no Twitter, no blogs except this one and arseblog. So I’ve missed (happily) a lot of the so-called debate. I don’t know if that leaves me clearer-eyed or out of the loop, but I’m more content.

          I do feel this is a very different club than 15 or 20 years ago, for sure. I don’t love it. I have seen a couple of promising signs this season, but may just be a mirage.

    5. That’s the other thing, this “clearing deadwood”. I understand getting transfer fees for under-performing (or mismanaged) players is difficult. But given that we’ve only recouped actual money on, what, two of the outgoing? That’s not some strategic vision, that’s just letting matters take their course.

       I have zero desire for this club to turn a transfer profit, we did that long enough. But some perspective please. At least Arteta has had the sense to pretend like he wants Nketiah around – hopefully that means a transfer fee. I suspect Stan’s fist is about to tighten up again – this ethically bereft Saudi windfall hasn’t arrived a moment too soon.

    6. Let me be the first official to come clear…. Arteta OUT.

    7. With so much hot water up , the conclusion is well…s

       expectedly

14. Not terribly excited for the USA keeper. Not a good day at the office today v Canada. Can we loan him out to FC Ted Kasso?

15. My expectations have stayed pretty solid since the start of the season, an improvement on last year.

    I feel that we should be aiming for over 70 points, that would represent a 10 – 15 point improvement on last season with a reduced wage bill, which would be an excellent result and leave us in great shape for continued improvement. It may or may not get us into the top 4, that’s a lottery.

    I want incremental improvement, as I think that’s smart and much more sustainable than trying to make big leaps. Maybe that’s why I don’t feel much angst.

    I think that repurposing the squad and incremental improvement are what Arteta has promised the club, the fans and the owners with “the project” and I think that’s what he’s pretty much delivering, quibbles over some individual things notwithstanding.

    I think this has been clearly reflected in all the decisions and priorities. For example, Auba can go and not be replaced if, and only if, his presence is undermining the long term cohesion and development of the team and the younger players. It’s fine to lose him today if we can manage without him and it means we end up in better shape tomorrow.

    That’s why I disagree with Josh that Arteta is failing to manage his resources. First because it just isn’t as simple as saying that Auba’s better than Eddie so Arteta should back down on his principles for the sake of a few goals. That would be poor management and lose him a lot of respect. Second, it was the moment that Auba was dropped that we suddenly took off in December, so I think the resources are generally being deployed ok.

    I think he’s juggling the short term need to win, with the long term culture, playing style, squad structure and balance that he’s trying to reach. I think it’s a huge challenge and while squad depth-wise we’re clearly seat of pants right now, in general I think he’s doing ok at it, maybe even more than ok.

    If you don’t like him, then his promise to the Kroenkes to do better for a lower wage bill has something transactional and bloodless about it, and I could be disappointed about that if I was in the right mood. But it’s hard to protest.

16. Well, with the tin foil thin deep squad, one injury in midfield and we are done or continue this wretched scoring run and we are done.

    8th, 8th, 8th and 8th in perpetuity, and I am out if Arteta is kept on as manager. It will show that we are not a club of ambition anymore.

    Do not care about points, just position in table, and the attractivness of the futbol.

17. So the Rams are in the Super Bowl. Im seeing a lot of similarities between their head coach Sean McVay, and Arteta. Young, check. 36 SMV, 39 Mikel. Hires were to their first head coach jobs, after being assistants (McVay had more variety of special teams roles and a longer apprenticeship).

    After making the Super Bowl in his 2nd season (loss to Brady’s Pats), McVay failed to make the playoffs in his third. Arteta won the FA Cup in his 1st, but his 2nd was disastrous — 8th, out of Europe. After another postseason exit, SMV is back in the big time.

    It may not be be coincidence that the 2 coaches track so closely in age and experience. It may also suggest (unsubstantiated guess) that the Kroenkes see Mikel as a long term investment, and are willing to back him in the face of short term failure. You can read too much into body language, but all parties seem totally at ease in each other’s presence, when Mikel was stateside last week.

    I hear some dissatisfied gooners saying “Kroenke out”, but they’ve actually been supportive of Arsenal’s team management.

    1. Oh definitely. I’ve been saying regardless of where we end up, KSE are going to offer Mikel a new contract. If only we had the draft and wage caps, KSE would rock the market. The Super League would suit them perfectly. As it is, we’re relying on the football knowledge and experience of Arteta and Edu, both relative novices, and just like we got rid of all the experience in the locker room, we also got rid of it in the staff meetings. Those decisions are now used as reasons and justification for why waiting for results while spending 200m is the correct approach. Neat logic loop the way I see it.

18. At the risk of raising the ire of a few folks here, i must say I’ve been really surprised at the continued resistance to Arteta here. I’ve been critical myself, especially last year, but I’ve come around to taking a much longer view here. Did people think replacing an icon would be a simple, seamless transition, going from strength to strength? When all the power and responsibility for the club is largely vested in one man, and he leaves, that picking up the pieces and figuring it all out would happen overnight? The squad was incredibly bloated, the wage structure a mess, and we were laden with older, underperforming, overpaid players. Yes, Wenger had gotten us top 4 for a long time. But not when he left. We needed a massive overhaul. The entire club – management, players, finances, recruiting, etc.

    I’m really surprised at the whining that we should be top 4 and anything less is failure, and that Arteta hasn’t really accomplished much. Really? Winning the FA cup with that squad was pulling a rabbit out of a hat! And presiding over the house cleaning that’s happened has taken a huge amount of hutzpah. Edu and Arteta somehow convinced Kroenke that we needed to eat all those players’ wages. Ozil, et al. That’s a big financial hit. I highly doubt Josh and Stan loved that idea, but they did it. And we’re better for it. And still they somehow prevailed on the owners to pony up 160mm for new players. Again – that couldn’t have been easy. That required a long term plan and trust. And those 6 new players are contributing significantly. This is a team that outplayed the top team in the league on New Year’s day, with an aggressive, exciting style of football. And we’re 2 points off 4th in January. And he deserves no credit?

    I’ll sound like the old fart that I am. You guys sound like a bunch of entitled little Veruca Salts who want their Oompa Loompas NOW! ‘Boohoo we should be challenging for the biggest titles in Europe every season. Wenger never would have done this or that.’ Wake up. This is a different league than 20 years ago. We don’t have the financial resources to spend like the Man City’s and Uniteds (and soon to be Newcastles) of the world. We are rebuilding the right way. The hard way. With young players. It requires patience and takes time. Arteta hasn’t been perfect, but anyone who has watched this team play this season has to recognize significant progress. I agree with Claude – KSE are building teams around young managers and letting them grow on the job, with an eye on the long term.

    Look at United, FFS! This stuff isn’t easy. You could argue we are much farther along than they are, with nowhere near the budget, and in way less time. Replacing our icon was never going to be easy. We will continue to make mistakes. But this short term mindset is what creates situations like United’s. Quick fixes don’t work. Stop expecting miracles. We now have some of the most exciting young players in the league, and we are challenging for European places in the midst of a rebuild. And that’s not good enough. Please.

    Rant complete. I see pitchforks in my future tomorrow morning.

    1. If you’re asking for patience that’s a reasonable request but per my post below, it’s a two-way street. We have to stop being a jam tomorrow club and need an upturn in results. With the scale of investment and lack of European football it’s reasonable to expect the club to be competing for the top slots. For some 6th will be acceptable, for some it won’t. Both have merit. Where I disagree with your comment is that much of the debate here is whether the players or the management are limiting the club? Let’s say we finish 6th this season – is that the current ceiling of the team or manager or both? Who knows but when the management don’t plug the gaps we all see, let players run down their contracts and drop or bench the club’s most expensive players it’s only right that questions should be asked.

    2. No problems from this corner. I agree. After Wenger “retired” we elected to undertake a renovation rather than a rebuild. It didn’t work. Once Edu and Arteta had complete control we can see that they decided on a complete rebuild. That meant a lot of complicated and controversial jettisoning of fan favorites and established veterans. It was and still is not easy. To be in 5th with the youngest line-up in the league is testament to the decent job they’ve done thus far. And as much as Arteta is learning on the job, so is Edu.

       Patience. If we finish with more points than last year, despite overhauling the line-up, that will have been progress.

19. We would Finnish 4th at least,if second place isn’t achievable. Mark my words. There’s so much potential in this team.

20. Interesting reading some of the comments. There’s more division over Arteta and the direction of the club than at the worst under Arsene.

    The club needs to start sign posting what success looks like. For example what is an acceptable or unacceptable finish this season? We can’t be a club in perpetual transition. That’s BS.

    This TW the club clearly had targets which it has been pursuing for some time but will fail to land any of them. It’s been clear since Ramsey left we lack midfield creativity. And the goal scoring problem is in large part self made as several players are leaving the club this season.

    In the last two seasons Arsenal has seen it’s worst run of results and turmoil for decades. And there’s forever talk of “jam tomorrow”. It’s quite understandable that fans are frustrated.

    As it stands Arsenal spent £150M in the Summer and are on track for a 4 point improvement (65 vs 61). In previous seasons that’s been enough for 6th, 5th or 4th place.

    1. And your solution is? Grumbling? What would you want the club to do? Fire Arteta? Fire Edu? Both? Spend $500m on new players? Kroenke sell the team to Kim Jong Un?

       All I hear is griping. I suppose that’s your right.

       1. Not sure what you’re disagreeing with but if it makes you feel better dick comment of the day is all yours.

    2. Saying we spent £150M in the summer is true, but it’s not the whole truth. It gives the impression we are adding lots of players when in fact the wage bill is coming down and squad is getting leaner (to the point where it’s a bit dangerous).

       Over the last two seasons we’ve reduced the squad size by about 8-10 players (depending on how you count loanees etc.), and ​I think we’ve cut the wage bill by somewhere approaching £1M per week (that’s my best guess, it’s hard to judge as reported figures are so inaccurate).

       We’re transitioning from a club in an unsustainable position (5th highest wage bill but 8th place finishes, too much waste, contract chaos) to a sustainable one. We’re resetting the foundation and finding more efficient ways to win. Sustainability is surely the most Wengerian of goals, and better use of existing resources is, as Josh says, a basic principal of good management.

       This is not perpetual transition, this is just transition – unless of course it doesn’t work! We’re at a delicate moment on that front. If we stop winning and finish up on the same number of points as last year, I would consider that a failure. Matching our wage bill with a 5th place finish would be putting us back on track.

       1. I said we reduced the squad size, and we are under the 25-man limit, but I should have said we reduced the roster, the payroll.

       2. Spot on, Greg. The team had to be right-sized for its current situation. No Europe means we need a leaner squad. That only makes financial sense. Big salaries are gone. Guys who aren’t on board are gone. Now it’s Arteta’s baby. Let’s see how he performs.

          1. Thomas Partey and Pepe are on absolutely massive, untradeable, salaries, FYI.

             1. This is true, Pepe was pre-Arteta and he is the last hangover from that period now.

                That said, Arteta championed Auba’s new contract, championed Willian and Luiz, and championed Thomas on whom the jury is still kind of out. He’s not immune to criticism here at all and he’s hopefully learning some caution along with Edu.

             2. Oh boy, I’m definitely not one to hold back on my criticism of Arteta!

21. burnley signed weghorst from wolfsburg for £12 million. he’s a proper center forward. i’ve been a fan for years.

22. LA GUNNER: “You guys sound like a bunch of entitled little Veruca Salts who want their Oompa Loompas NOW! ‘Boohoo we should be challenging for the biggest titles in Europe every season. Wenger never would have done this or that.’ Wake up. This is a different league than 20 years ago. We don’t have the financial resources to spend like the Man City’s and Uniteds (and soon to be Newcastles) of the world. We are rebuilding the right way. The hard way. With young players. It requires patience and takes time.”
    ____________

    LA (one of the always reasonable guys here),

    Appreciate your gift of expression as always. However, from what I can see, expectations are rather more modest. Not challenging for the biggest titles in Europe… but making a credible run at earning a Champions League place, in a season in which you have the conditions for doing so. At the risk of raising your ire, I will repeat… if Mikel can’t manage 4th with his spending and a clear schedule; he will have failed, and he probably never will. All things considered, 8th to 6th isn’t improvement. Im sorry if that upsets some gooners and makes me sound entitled.

    What some of us are effectively doing is making excuses in advance for Mikel. Not deliberately so… effectively. I don’t question anyone’s motives. The reason that Frank Vogel will lose his job as Lakers head coach — in the summer or sooner — is that the history of the franchise brings certain expectations of the team. The Lakers, deep into the season, have lost 3 more games than they’ve won. They have 3 Hall of Famers. We the fans (for I am part of Lakers nation) expecting better are not being entitled.

    If anything, Mikel was let off lightly (including by fans like me at the time) for FA Cup’s most successful team going out at the first hurdle to Championship opposition. He’s presiding over dispiriting lows, like absence from Europe for the first time in a quarter of a century, winless streaks and the like. For all the financial and churn leeway he’s been given, he seems to have built an XI and not a squad. And, whatever the facts of the Auba case, the guy we are poised to send to Spain for the second half of the campaign IS STILL OUR LEADING SCORER AMONG STRIKERS!

    To borrow Tim’s metaphor, Mikel has been given the ingredients to make good bread. Now, not 2 years from now. This. Season. I for one am going to hold him to it. But as I said earlier, the owners are showing signs of being invested in him for the long haul. Left up to me, where we finish this season in the only competition in which we remain involved in January would decide his future… the Arsenal job is not supposed to be a work experience gig. I don’t think that that is being unreasonable or entitled. It’s normal sports management accountability. But I don’t run the club. They do.

    1. “The Lakers, deep into the season, have lost 3 more games than they’ve won. They have 3 Hall of Famers. We the fans (for I am part of Lakers nation) expecting better are not being entitled.”

       Claude – I agree that Vogel should/will lose his job. (BTW anyone looking to Melo and Russ to solve a team’s problems is already grasping at straws – but that’s another story) Here’s the difference in how we view things. Arsenal don’t have 3 proven HOFer’s, having come off a recent championship. We are at a different stage of our cycle. We are reworking the team to build a contender. We are doing it with young players with very high ceilings who might be Lebrons or Westbrooks one day. We are getting the financial house in order (kinda like getting cap space cleared) so we can push in the next few years to win the big prizes. The Lakers had to endure the Luke Walton years before they could make the big acquisition and contend for the title.

       We’re not quite there. Almost. The real key will be this summer and what we do. The future is bright with our young squad. And we’re 2 points off fourth right now. The sky isn’t falling.

       1. Fair point about our current position.

          I don’t think the sky’s falling either. Im just saying I’ll hold accountable for our results, those who are accountable for our results. Without caveats or excuses. Let’s see where we are at the end of the season.

          1. That’s fair. The Lakers had to fire Walton to get to the finals with Lebron. We may have to do the same with Mikel, but I think we have enough to get us Top 4. 5th or 6th would also be ok, but it would be dependent on other factors, like underlying metrics and whether he still has the locker room. But yeah, he doesn’t get a free pass.

23. I’m not going to see finishing 5th or 6th instead of 4th if we actually challenge for 4th in the second half of the season as a disappointment.
    But ending up 7th or 8th or worse would be a problem for me given the money spent and wasted. And the position we were in at the end of Dec. The problems we’ve had in Jan were pretty predictable.
    As a manager(in any industry), one of the things you should be doing is looking at potential risks and doing what you can to reduce them. The biggest risk right now is scoring. If we’re left with Laca and Eddie as options, that seems to me too high a risk. I’d agree that it probably doesn’t make sense to go after Isak or another very high priced and risky option in the winter. But to do nothing…that’s also a big unmitigated risk. At least try to bring in someone mid-tier on a loan.
    Beyond that I’m starting to worry that Arteta is getting a “difficult to play for” reputation. That will make it harder to attract big prospects and really be an issue without CL.

24. One foot out the door for our ex-skipper. Would be relieved if it does go through.

    https://theathletic.com/news/barcelona-reach-verbal-agreement-to-sign-aubamenyang-on-loan-from-arsenal/231hVc5vFHi9/

    1. Just read on BBC that it’s an outright free transfer.

       I don’t mind. By clearing the 350k a week off the books we now have the capacity to offer someone like Jonathan David or Aurelian Tchouameni a real tempting salary in July. And I’d have no issues if we gave Lacazette a two year deal at a reasonable figure and just put the captain’s armband on him permanently.

       1. We’ll see if Laca takes a new offer, after turning down the previous one.

          Anyway, a year from now you might be back in this space saying Arsenal were right to show him the exit. We dont really want that, do we? 🙂

          1. Show who the exit? Laca or Auba?

             To be frank, Aubameyang was not producing like a 350k a week player.

             Who agreed to pay him those wages? Edu and Arteta. It was a mistake. But imagine the anger when they didn’t resign the hero who carried the team to an FA Cup? So they caved.

             It happens. Arsene Wenger, as great as he was, caved in when he signed Ozil to a similar bumper deal.

             These cases where teams cave to superstars running out their deals never seems to work out for the team.

             Nor do these free transfers seem to work out long term – Willian and Kolasinac as examples. The free transfers expect higher salaries that make it hard to move them along.

             That’s why I would like Laca to stay, I think he’s an extremely useful leader on the field for the young team, but as I said, at a reasonable figure. We should not be held ransom.

             My fear right now is we held on to Nketiah when Crystal Palace and Newcastle were both offering decent money. I hope that doesn’t mean we plan on offering him an overmarket deal.

             1. I’m going to say this just one last time: the problem with Auba was that the system didn’t produce for him. Your striker needs and thrives on big chances. He scored 3/8 big chances this season and 4/10 last season. That is just not enough. You can reasonably say that the number of big chances a striker gets he will score about 50% of them. Vardy had 23 big chances last season and this season just 10 so far as their system has slowed down. If you don’t put a striker in position to score goals he won’t score goals.

                I bet you he gets plenty of chances at Barcelona.

       2. I don’t mind “free” either. It’s a lot of money off the books, and apparently there was no way back for him.
          What I do mind is that this is going to leave us VERY short in the striker dept, unless there’s a surprise last second deal. It doesn’t need to be Isak…just some kind of experienced backup for Lacazette.

          1. We’ll make a papier mache striker with all that money we save, innit? Whoopee! 🙂

             On a serious note, we save 18 months of a big salary; but we lose a nominal transfer fee. His value is roughly £10m, but we’d probably get 8m of that in a negotiation.

             Auba + — goes to bigger brand, higher prestige club which Barca are despite their financial difficulties. Ten years from now, long retired, it’ll matter in terms of career satisfaction.

             Auba – — takes a pay cut. Ten years from now, long retired, that could in terms of money left on the table.

             AFC + — saves big money on salary
             AFC – — rushed sale and ruined relationship = no transfer fee; but net £+
             AFC – — we have Eddie

             Barca + — landing a striker better than any they currently have, in their dire financial position and on the cheap.

             Barca – — none that I can see

             Personally Im relieved. I didnt want the drama of finding out if Mikel would play him if Laca got injured, and a European place was on the line.

             1. Speaking of drama…that Netflix behind the scenes documentary could be pretty interesting. There has been no shortage of craziness.

25. mikel arteta…..what a maroon. who the heck is he? what has he ever won? why does he seem to have beef with every player who’s won more than he did in his playing career?

    this has always been my gripe with this guy. simply put, he doesn’t know how to manage superstars. how can you win the league or compete in the champions league if you can’t attract superstars? all of the players that arsenal spent tons of money on that have won silverware, arteta has strategically gotten rid of by grossly mistreating them at a huge financial loss to the club.

    do you think any star player with options chooses to come arsenal and get oziled? nobody wants to play for arteta. bruno would rather go to newcastle than play for arteta. buendia would rather go to villa than play for arteta. morata and dembele would rather sit on the bench than play for arteta. vlahovic wouldn’t even take calls pertaining a move to arsenal.

    when have you ever seen such talented players get perpetually banished like mesut, matteo, and auba? you think players don’t see that? you think players don’t talk? football is a small world.

    1. I think I agree with much of what you’re saying here.

    2. btw, i wanted arsenal to sign bentancur when they signed torreira. now spurs have him. we’ll see how that works out.

    3. When did Bruno say he didn’t want to play for Arteta?

       When did Buendia say he didn’t want to play for Arteta?

       When did Morata say he didn’t want to play for Arteta?

       When did Dembele say he didn’t want to play for Arteta?

       In your world Vlahovic didn’t answer Arsenal’s calls (an unverified tabloid story btw) because why? It couldn’t have been because Serbian kids grow up watching Serie A and have no particular love for England, a country that to this day they still resent Blair and Clinton bombing them in the 90’s.

       You talk as though Arteta has been managing this team for years and years. It’s been barely two years – two years smashed by a pandemic, inheriting a team that was poorly assembled with no plan.

       How has Aubameyang won more than Arteta?

       Your hatred isn’t rational. It’s based on conjecture and imagined slights that you have no way of proving. Get a grip.

       1. Jack, you’re having a time, aren’t you?

          You talk about conjecture, demand to know “how do you know” this and that, and then baselessly speculate that Vlahovic may “resent Blair and Clinton bombing them in the 90’s”.

          Your constant lecturing of others who dont feel like you about the manager — and all this talk about “hate”, ‘haters” and “derangement syndrome” — is something to behold. Take a chill pill, mate. Some people here have valid, reasonable and properly argued criticisms of Arteta. Others — for and against — not so much. Stop being so darned prickly about it. This is not North Korea, and everyone does not have to like the leader.

          btw, ask anyone without a skewed view of the Balkans conflict whether Milosevic, Clinton or Blair were the bad guys. Heck, why dont you ask Granit Xhaka or Saed Kolasinac?

          1. Regardless of who were the “bad guys”, I’m telling you how Serbs see that episode in history. My father is Serbian. And a Partizan fan – the club Dusan Vlahovic grew up in. And I was just guilty of speculating – the same what Josh was on the why Vlahovic’s agents wouldn’t pick up the phone (again… a tabloid story, why are we referencing garbage?) In the old Yugoslavia, they got Serie A on tv. My dad grew up an Inter fan and in turn, I grew up an Inter fan. I loved Bergkamp at Ajax, I was thrilled when he went to Inter and when he moved to Arsenal, that’s when I became an Arsenal fan.

             I’m off on a tangent … Serbs in general have no love for England. They don’t grow up dreaming of playing in the Premier League. If I had to guess, that was way more of a factor than Arteta, a person he probably barely knew of.

       2. those players all said they didn’t want to play for arteta when they signed for other teams; teams significantly smaller than arsenal. it’s not conjecture. their actions spoke much louder than words ever could.

          arteta’s two+ years at the club has been at arsenal long enough to make the club better and more appealing but has he done that? the two 8th place finishes are arsenal’s worst in a quarter century. i’m not going to hold him to a lower standard when he’s had two years. what did wenger do in his first two years? what about klopp at liverpool? what about tuchel at chelsea? the same for david moyes at west ham with significantly fewer resources. tuchel and moyes did it during the same pandemic you’re sniveling about. it’s the arsenal job and the club have backed him so i’m going to hold him to the same standard i would wenger, klopp, tuchel, or anyone else. if he wanted to be held to a lower standard, he shouldn’t be at arsenal.

          i don’t hate arteta. i don’t hate anyone. in fact, i loved arteta as a player. i’m just not going to put my head in the sand and ignore the obvious negative influence he’s introduced to the club.

          1. So… you’re interpreting their not signing for Arsenal as a statement on their unwillingness to play for Arteta? It couldn’t possibly be for any other reason? Like more money on offer at Newcastle? Like Morata has a very young family and doesn’t want to leave them behind in Torino? Like Dembele knows he can get a deal with PSG at the end of the season and isn’t interested in a 15-week layover in England? Like Aston Villa offered more money for Buendia?

             Can you not see how you’re just twisting every event into something anti-Arteta. It’s not right. That’s why I’m getting angry when I read these comments. I don’t love Arteta, but this criticism is over the top and it’s getting to me. It’s beyond rationality. You are projecting your worst interpretation of events instead of simply judging the facts as we know them.

             1. relax, brother. i’m just saying that these players had options and chose what would seem the less ideal option. since when do so many players so readily dismiss coming to london to play for arsenal? only a fool would dismiss the treatment some players receive from arteta. who treats players like that other than real madrid and barcelona? am i speculating? yes. however, my speculation is not irrational. if you were a big player, seeing how auba and ozil were treated, would you come to arsenal?

             2. Hey Jack, first off, please do me a favor and ratchet down the frustration and stuff just one or two notches.

                Second, Bruno’s Newcastle Announcement video specifically trolls Arsenal. I think it’s pretty clear that he turned us down for Nuke. Now whether Arteta’s treatment of players had something to do with that or not, we don’t know. But he definitely turned us down and then made a point of telling the world that he turned us down.

                And he turned us down for a club that very realistically could get relegated this season. That’s.. uhh.. hard to take.

             3. Since when do so many players dismiss coming to London to play for Arsenal? Am I wrong, or weren’t a lot of big name players turning down Wenger even when we were playing Champions League football? Instead they chose money or clubs that were willing to grease agents. This is not a recent phenomenon.

                Look at the year we got Ozil – we were turned down by Higuain and Suarez. Luis Gustavo chose to stay at Wolfsburg. This is not new and not on Arteta.

    4. Tbf, Liverpool won the League and CL without bonafide ‘stars’. They found talented but underrated players who wanted to prove themselves and Klopp got the maximum out of them.

       Our revised recruitment strategy seems to mirror Liverpool’s. You could argue even Vlahovic is still a prospect and not a proven ‘star’.

       Ironically, it’s Arteta’s man management that’s hindering this vision. He simply refuses to work with people that aren’t ‘perfect’ for him. I have no sympathy for the likes of Özil and Aubameyang but the Saliba and Guendouzi sagas disturb me. Young footballers with World class potential will more often than not have attitude problems in the beginning. If you can’t handle them you’ll end up with a team full of Elnenys and Xhakas.

       1. the liverpool stars were bonafide before they got to liverpool. mane used to rip arsenal every time they played southhampton. likewise, salah and debrunye were brought in at chelsea because of their prodigious talents but had their development thwarted by, wait for it…….their manager. likewise, alison was a monster and virgil is the best central defender i’ve ever seen play the game; both of those guys went for north of £70 million. yeah, they have some legit stars on that team that make a difference.

    5. The only winner in all of this is PEA. He gets to finish his career at Barca – proper boyhood dreams stuff.

26. Josh.

    I agree completely that you can’t win the league or compete with champions league teams without star players. That was the whole major point of the last comment I made on the prior post. Right now we don’t have any of those star players on our roster. Ozil or Auba were both a well past being superstars at the point in their careers when they left Arsenal. You can blame Arteta and Edu for not buying the star players we need but expecting the manager to take a squad with some good players and a couple players with a lot of potential but without the star power we need and compete with the teams in the top 4 is not very realistic.

27. Calling Guendouzi a star based on what he did in 2 seasons with Arsenal and his year in Germany is a fairly large bit of hyperbole.

    1. i didn’t call guendouzi a star. my point is that arteta has treated big players like ozil and auba pretty bad…far worse than they deserve. no one with star potential who wants to have a big career will risk coming to arsenal. if superstars can be treated so poorly, why can’t they? it’s a deterrent.

28. Josh

    We don’t know what happened with those players and how it all played out behind closed doors. Its possible Ozil was spending his time on the training pitch searching for 4 leaf clovers or flipping middle finger salutes to all the coaches when then were not looking and no one would know that it was not true. I think its to the their credit that the club never really told us their side of the story and the only info we had was from Ozil’s PR team which is obviously a biased source.

    My baseline assumption is everyone on the clubs management wants to win from Josh Kronke all the way down. Arteta would not be the only person involved in decisions with regard to how to manage difficult players. Unless you believe that Arteta has complete control and has Edu and everyone else under his thumb then I assume the decision was discussed at all levels from the Kronke’s on down and all of them are Arteta’s bosses. Unless you believe they have the same crazy mindset or they all just caved in to Arteta then I assume most everyone in our front involved in the decision believed what was done was in the best interests of the club.

29. Tim @ 4:56PM

    Thierry Henry scored 4 goals playing for Barcelona in his age 32 season and he should have had more chances then any player in the world. If my memory is correct he played for Pep on those great Barca teams that featured Xavi and Iniesta in midfield and Messi upfront. It will be interesting to see how Auba does in Barcelona but the point is when age catches up with a player there is nothing that can be done to turn back the clock.

    Speaking of age catching with a player how about Aaron Ramsey. He has been given something close to the Ozil treatment and has made just 3 appearances this year and the manager said when asked that they are actively trying to move him. I just saw that he is going on loan to Rangers. Just like Ozil, Fabregas and Alexis Sanchez, Ramsey’s decline started in the late 20’s. We had a lot of debates about this but we are very lucky we did not cave in to his wage demands. The mistake was not selling him sooner.

    1. Ramsey would currently be in year 3 of his new contract. He would have cost us 36m in wages till the end of the season. We have spent around 10m for 2 years of Ceballos, 50m + 10m/yr for Partey, and 8m plus wages for Guendouzi. And we’re still searching for someone to assert themselves in midfield and for a senior presence in the locker room.

       Ramsey was let go because we wanted rid of all of Wenger’s influence. It had nothing to do with balancing finances.

       Having Ramsey play even half the games while Willock, AMN, ESR and younger players came through would have been worth more and cost less than the search for culture.

    2. During Henry time at Barca , Messi was the focal point , whereas Henry by nature was an out and out finisher who would not get that focus then at Barca, so he got only 4 goals.
       Currently it is a different situation at Barca. They move the ball up well. Just what , I think , Auba needs and Barca needs. Might be the best transfer business , which would show up our Don Quixote for what he is.

    3. bill, did you watch henry play for barcelona? he wasn’t the #9, eto’o was. likewise, like i’ve told you many times, players later in their careers are doing what it takes to help others shine and are less goal-hungry. it’s a natural progression for many players who have that leadership quality and aren’t obsessed with themselves. henry had already begun that transition when still at arsenal and he led the league in assists.

       let me put it this way. barcelona have signed plenty of players from arsenal and henry worked out the best by a country mile.

30. I have a question.

    What is the point of a rebuild the way we went about it?

    If we were going to let players leave on a free, pay them to leave, or pay to freeze them out, wouldn’t we have been better off just playing them till they have nothing more to offer?

    Do we think we’d have finished as low as 8th? Worse?

    What did going through all that upheaval, when and how we did, gain us?

    1. I think this is a fair question. I see a lot of purpose and promise in what has been done, but I can’t say that a different, more balanced approach couldn’t have achieved the desired transition with much less drama and fallout.

       My gut and my head kind of line up on this one though – there was something rotten in the state of Denmark and it needed to be tackled. I think carrying on the way we were would have resulted in more damage in the long term.

       I do have concerns, of course.

       I share this concern around who will want to come and play for Arsenal if they feel sorry for players like Auba and Ozil and see that it’s a tough regime. I think we will probably lose out on some transfer targets as a result. I also have a concern that this could be a pattern that establishes itself if we’re not careful – imagine in 3 or 4 years time if Martinelli is scoring 25 a season, getting an ego, making demands, and ends up falling out with Arteta over it.

       The flip side for me is that I have seen a culture of player entitlement set in over a long time, and I’m not a fan of it, so I’m ok if the egos stay away. I also think of players like De Bruyne who’s humble and a workhorse as well as a phenomenal player and I think yeah, there are are great players out there who want to work hard and play for a real team. In terms of possible future player fallouts, I’m a benefit-of-the-doubt giver and there are no real reasons to invent a pattern where there might not be one.

       Here’s the big thing for me – the prize that potentially awaits is a fully connected team without divas, full of character and personality as well as talent, with players like Ramsdale, Tomi, Tierney, White, Gabriel, Odegaard, Saka, ESR and Martinelli in all positions; playing for joy and pride, for the fans, and winning. I can get behind that as a vision.

       1. Thanks for the reply.

          I have a problem that the foundation of this whole process rests on believing that an undefinable ‘something’ was ‘rotten’. When really, as far as I could see most of our players are all generally well behaved. In fact I doubt Mikel could have done what he did if they were intent on being difficult. There was no player revolt against any manager. They turned up and wanted to contribute. Until they lost faith in the manager’s ability, which really is just about motivation. Even then, what did they really do that necessitated the kind of extreme all change policy that we’ve seen?

          Whenever Arteta leaves, if the next manager is not able to extract performances from the squad, should we budget another 200m in transfer fees, another few dozen million in wasted wages, and 3 seasons before it becomes about what he is bringing to the table?

          Sorry if that sounds belligerent. I’m just genuinely amazed at this line of thought.

          As for the future. Sure, we’re going with players who are stepping up to Arsenal and are in the stage of their careers where they are hungry to achieve. That is potentially rewarding. But if I’m being honest, I doubt that is enough and I think we’re overestimating what we have now in terms of talent. I genuinely believe we’ve gotten worse in that regard. Of course a lot will depend on what we now do in the summer, and that in turn will also depend on where we end up this season. I hope you’re right about the joy though. I’d forgive a whole lot if we deliver football which was played with and brought joy.

          1. Thanks Shard.

             I think we had individuals with fantastic quality but overall the level of talent in our squads has been very uneven. I think we’ve perhaps lost the top, top quality of players like Cazorla and prime Ozil but we’ve increased the floor and the overall level of talent now is higher, especially than it has been the last 5 years or so. That’s an interesting point of disagreement.

             It’s not about “bad behaviour” of previous squads/players. I agree with you that they gradually lost faith in management, they lost belief and lost commitment and quality suffered as a result, and I guess that’s the rottenness I’m referring to. Wenger, who I love, has to shoulder responsibility for it in the end, even though I think as a collective the players were also letting him down. Emery, who I didn’t like but I respect, was not the man to fix it.

             I think Arteta was very prepared to work with the players he had, and he did that for the first season. But it can’t just be about him adapting to the players, the players also have to adapt and respond to his demands and the number of changes we have seen I think tell their own story about how willing or able they were to do that.

             I know you won’t agree with this but for me the energy has changed in a positive way, because frankly I’d lost my own belief and commitment as well, even if I hadn’t realised it. Now I have some hope of improvement, even if there are a lot of doubts woven in, including about the manager.

             If things continue on the current path, when the next manager comes in we will hopefully have a new, improved culture and a new foundation of committed, talented players on better organised contracts. So no, I don’t think they would have to do the extensive rebuild and culture change that Arteta & co have been doing. So no, they would not get 3 seasons of leeway to get a tune out of the side. I don’t follow that line of thought either.

       2. i’m not sure i believe you can win a championship with a bunch of good boys. you need some nastiness in there; some players with character, personality, and a bit of an attitude. most of the top players, including debrunye, have an ego. real leaders know how to manage their players with egos and big personalities and get them to follow. arteta looks as if he’s incapable of managing that sort of personality. we’ll see.

          can you imagine him in charge of a sulky anelka, a moody henry, a volatile vieira, an always late ian wright, mad jens, or a rebellious van persie? alexis? nasri? gallas? adebayor? not a bunch of nice guys but they have been stars in the world game for arsenal. would they have been under arteta?

          aubameyang has always scored goals, just not under arteta. with that, you all have heard me insist for years that auba is not a center forward. in fact, no one has been prolific under arteta. is bill right and are these players really past their best? we’ll see how an even less experienced xavi manages auba’s talents.

          1. I think we still have players with a bit of nastiness, fight and character. It’s just who that nastiness is directed at. Look at Xhaka, he tells fans to eff off and gets multiple reds but he stays while Guendouzi goes. It’s because Xhaka fights for his teammates, not with them. His ego doesn’t get in the way.

             And in contrast Auba by all accounts is the nicest guy in the world, he’s just flaky and (from Arteta’s perspective) his priorities lie outside the team, he can’t be relied on. Again, Arteta sees the impact of that on the collective and that’s a red line for him.

             I’m very interested as well to see how Auba does at Barca. He certainly seemed to lose his smile under Arteta and he plays best when he’s smiling, I hope he gets it back.

31. Shard, Edu said on Sky: “I don’t want to go for top four or top six or top eight or top 10. I’m just really looking forward to seeing this squad play together. I’m really looking forward to seeing everyone fit.”

    I hope this answers your club’s targets for the season question. And if you aren’t happy with those goals then you clearly must be a hater…….clearly.

    1. Hah! I wouldn’t put myself far from being a hater anyway.

32. Shard @ 11:30PM

    Your suggestion that Ramsey was let go because they wanted to get rid of Wengers influence is complete and utter speculation. None of us was in the room when the clubs hierarchy discussed the situation. At the time my own belief was and still is the club did not believe they could justify the wages that Ramsey could command (which turned out to be higher then Ozil wages) for a player who had a long history of injuries and could never stay healthy enough to be useful for more then a short run of games before he went out again for several weeks to months with another soft tissue injury. The last thing the club needed was another huge contract for a player who could not perform on a regular basis. Ramsey’s recurring injuries in Italy and his lack of production when he has been healthy has certainly validated the prospective prediction that Juve would be sorry they gave him that contract and Arsenal’s decision to avoid giving him a huge long term contract would be proven to be a good decision.

    1. the reason ramsey’s wages were higher than ozil was down to a bonus he got atop his wages as he moved to juventus as a free agent.

       the way this works is if the market value of a free agent is x, the club will pay the player a percentage of x as a bonus. arbitrarily, say ramsey was worth £50 million. juventus may have paid his salary plus £20 million over the course of his contract. it makes him seem like he’s on big wages but this is the reward of moving as a free agent. if ramsey stayed at arsenal, they wouldn’t have had to pay the transfer bonus money juventus did.

       for the record, i wasn’t opposed to ramsey leaving but i was disgusted by the way it was managed by the club.

    2. I have no desire to go over the details of the Ramsey thing all over again. I pointed out the finances were largely in favour of that deal when compared to how they’ve spent it instead and where we’ve finished since.

       Speculation or not, but know that when you say ‘the club’ what you mean is Raul Sanllehi, and I think everyone on this forum knows what I kept saying about that man being put in charge.

Comments are closed.