The FA are investigating incidents in a match between Leeds and Arsenal for unusual betting around a yellow card for Granit Xhaka.
According to multiple sources the FA have told Arsenal that Xhaka and the club are not the subject of the investigation, which kind of only leaves a few other options, with the main one being the refereeing crew, headed by Andre Marriner.
I want to be clear and state that I am not accusing Andre Marriner of any crimes. I’m just putting two and two together. If the FA are investigating unusual betting patterns in the game, but they are not investigating the player or club involved, well then the other options here are the opposing team and the referee.
The reports I’ve read say that a large sum of money (£52k) was bet on Granit Xhaka getting a yellow card, just a few minutes before he did get a yellow card. The betting firms reported it because it’s an unusual prop bet but here’s where my match notes might come in handy.
I went back through my notes from that match and was reminded that it was a strange day. If you recall, Arsenal were comfortably ahead and Leeds were playing like crap. They had been sending singleton pressures all game and Arsenal were bypassing them easily. It’s important to mention the way that Leeds play, they intentionally seek out individual duels. That is Bielsa’s style. And it’s important that Xhaka was very active in duels in that match – he attempted 9 tackles, more than in all three of his previous matches combined – and my notes have him winning the ball back several times, once for a goal (yay, Granit!)
And it was sort of a fiesty match. Referee Andre Marriner had to get the Arsenal players away from the Leeds fans at one point, and Rob Holding reported the Leeds fans over making some racist comments at the Arsenal players who were warming up on the sideline.
And there’s also a not-insignificant fact that early in the 2nd half Granit Xhaka could have gotten a red card for an awful tackle on Raphina. It was the kind of tackle by Granit Xhaka that if it had been Granit Xhaka, it surely would have been a red card.
Some folks are suggesting that this is evidence that Marriner wanted to keep Xhaka on the pitch so that he could give him a yellow card but Marriner is actually just one of the most lenient referees in the League. So, it’s totally normal for him to allow bone crunching tackles.
I see that tackle and the fact he got away with it as evidence that some punter was just like “oh boy, I guarantee Xhaka gets a yellow soon” and backed that up with a massive bet – the kind of bet that a junkie makes, honestly. And let’s also add that Ben White made a dumb ass tackle just a few minutes before Xhaka got his yellow card and conceded a penalty. Plus, Smith Rowe had just scored Arsenal’s 4th goal and a few minutes later is when Xhaka picked up a yellow card for time wasting.
I know that Marriner is also the referee who accidentally sent off Kieran Gibbs for an Alex Oxlade Chamberlain handball in a match against Chelsea in 2014 but I’ll be surprised if there’s anything untoward in all of this. Marriner has been a referee for a long time and unless he’s got some kind of gambling problem or some other addiction which would lead him down this path I can’t see him giving up a lucrative career and risk jail time. Of course, I’m not ruling anything out but it looks to me like this is much about nothing. I think some punter just got lucky.
Putting money on Xhaka getting a yellow card in a game where emotions were high, where he’d already gotten away with a crazy tackle, and where he was kind of flying all over the pitch flinging himself into tackles (plus, he plays for Arsenal), was probably the best bet that person made all year.
Three quick thoughts:
1. That must be the most pleasure Granit Xhaka has ever given an Arsenal fan
2. That fan needs serious help, or has way to much to lose, if he’s splashing out £50k bets on such random outcomes
3. Does anything constitute a ‘sensible’ bet?
1. lol
2. yes
3. no
People are spending 6 figure sums on silly NFTs in pump and dump schemes. Is this type of gambling any different other than being more traditional?
Too much money sloshing around.
Not quite so stranger things have happened. This is how caliopoli started in Italy.
On the (similar) issue to cards…
We are reminded constantly by the media – especially Sky Sport and BT Sport, that Arsenal have by far the highest number of Red Cards of any club in the EPL since Mikel Arteta took charge just over two years ago. Some of those cards might have been disputed, though most were not. In a normal world, I can live with that.
Unfortunately, we don’t live in a normal world, and to say the least, refereeing dicisions are inconsistent to say the least. What is a Red Card when Arsenal players commit a foul is not a rec card when players from another team commit the same foul. The red card that Thomal Partey got last week is for a fould nothing like as bad for the Everton guy who straked Tomi’s face, or when some fooker kicked Saka into the air last year against Palace. Eddie and Auba and even David Luiz got red cards which were only deemed yellow (or none) when those offences are committed against Aresenal players.
I think there’s a good opportunity for ayoung, enthusiastic journalist to make a name for themselves here by comparing those 14 (or is it 15 now) red crds against Arsenal, with similar offences by players from other clubs that seem to go unpunished.
I’m sure the results would be “interesting” and probably show how inconsistent, incompetent or even “biased” the officials might be.
By law, no one should be allowed to make money from betting on Granit getting a caution. What’s next? Betting it’ll snow at Lambeau Field in January?
Anyway, the FA should have kept schtum on this until they’d concluded their investigations. Everything else at this point is speculative, and (at this point) unfair to the people involved.
I agree.
I must observe that placing money on Granit Xhaka to get a yellow card would be regarded as a pretty sound investment by the likes of Warren Buffet.
I think the bigger question is what idiot bookie actually accepted a bet that Xhaka would get carded? And are they still accepting wagers? Asking for a friend… 😉
A way to draw more bets maybe. Look how easy it is to get rich!
i remember gabriel getting a second yellow for popping someone in the mouth. fast forward to the burnley game and someone popped gabriel in the mouth in a similar fashion but doesn’t receive a second yellow. strange?
Bruno Guimarães to Newcastle. Scratch that one, gooners.
That’s 0-2 in two days. Edu has a busy week ahead. Look, dont beat up on the club. Theyre working hard. Bruno decided to take the money.
It is not a done deal.
Who would we want to play in midfield?
Bruno?
Artur?
Teilemans?
Douglas Luiz?
Tyler Adams?
Wijnaldum?
Man, and farther we will fall in this landscape of infinite $…
6th will be the new 4th.
That’s pretty much the way I’m seeing this.
Wouldn’t be so quick to conclude nothing to see here. There’s long been something rotten in the state of PL refereeing, not at all surprised if the unaccountability has tipped over into illegality.
Auba is not traveling to Dubai. Can only assume he must be leaving this window and a replacement incoming.
Not sure what to think of the Auba thing. Couple of thoughts:
1. As you say, maybe they are already pretty sure they have someone coming in and are OK with him being out in the cold.
2. His transgressions would seems to have to be much worse than what has been made public for this level of banishment.
3. At this point, I’m not sure I have a great feeling about Arteta and player relationships. Once you get on his bad side, it seems there’s no way back. I had my doubts about Guendouzi as I wasn’t impressed with his positional sense, control or aerial capability. But he seems to be doing well in France, and we could certainly use him as an option in the midfield. But apparently no way back for him. Kind of wondering if that will also be the case for Saliba, and again, we could use a strong option for central defense. Now with this Auba thing, Arteta seems to be incredibly stubborn. More even then Fergie, who while he got mad at players, usually eventually let them back in.
1. I think we were after Vlahovic and he rejected us. We seem to have Isak as a backup. I don’t have a strong opinion about that player. We are also very clearly after a MFer with the heaviest links to both Bruno and Arthur. Bruno is the better of the two players but it looks like he’s going to Nuke and Arsenal only wants Arthur for 6 months but Juve wanted us to take him for 18 months and pay his full salary. I’ve seen Arthur and he’s a good midfielder but he is the most one-footed player I’ve seen since Tomas Rosicky and I have grave reservations about him in the Premier League. Tim Stillman also voiced concerns and I think he’s seen a lot more of Arthur than I have.
2. I think I’ve been saying this.
3. I think I’ve been saying this about Arteta for a while. He is remarkably similar to Jose Mourinho in personality. As for Guendo, the loan deal has a strong “must buy” clause, so he’s not coming back. Folks will say that he “wasn’t good enough at the time” and the “he’s a head case” and those are somewhat legit comments but he was also extremely young and sometimes you need to teach young people the right way to be a professional. I think Saliba is also gone. I can’t see us spending 50m on Ben White and having him compete with Saliba. Also Saliba’s in the last year of his deal.
Not sure there’s enough time for that
SLC_GOONER,
if in a contentious matter you’re unsure about things, try to locate the proposition of the just, and of justice.
The known, undisputed, un-refuted facts of the Aubameyang case is that he made a disciplinary breach (not several breaches… a breach). This is Arteta’s initial public statement on the matter. What has since entered into the public domain through digging by investigative reporting, is that he returned to the the country 12 hours later than agreed, after taking his mother to France for medical treatment. That has not been contradicted by anyone.
The points of conjecture (what we don’t know for sure through what was reported) are that Auba has previous, and this was the final straw for Arteta. To compound matters, he was sent back to the club by his own country’s FA because doctors detected “heart lesions”, and Arteta’s greeting of this news was noticeably frosty.
My issue is this…. from the publicly available evidence, the punishment seems disproportionate to the crime. I cannot reconcile the rolling ban that exiles him from the squad, with the publicly known facts of the matter. Arteta’s reflexive defenders are going to seize on that and say, “there must be more”, to which I would say, “sure, that’s plausible”. But think about how grave an offence it has to be to necessitate a ban going on 5, 6 weeks, with no end in sight. We’re not in Benzema or assault territory here. In every other instance of that type of disciplinary breach that we know of, a manager has banned a player for 4, 5 games, and brought him off the bench.
As for having previous, Arteta does. We heard about Don Raul from Sanllehi’s admirers… what about Don Mikel? That’s how he behaves with players who cross him. There’s no way back. Tim’s right about Guendo. Arteta should consider that Aubameyang is a very big part of the reason for his lone competitive success, a FA Cup.
Here’s what I’m NOT arguing. For Auba to start. Who’d you rather have coming off the bench to salvage a draw or chase a win with 20 minutes left, if it’s not working for Laca or one of the other forwards? Aubameyang or Eddie?
I don’t get the argument that some gooners that he has zero utility. At the time of his ban and as crap as he’d been in front of goal, he had more goals than Harry Kane. He still has one more goal than Lacazette (yes, I know that Laca brings more, involves, more players and has a better all-round game, but goals are at the top of his JD).
Arseblog reckons that Arteta is smart enough not to cut his nose to spite his face, but clearly the club was hoping for a constructive dismissal of Aubameyang, buying some time with AFCON, buying a quality replacement, and hoping Eddie filled the breach in the meantime. None of those things have materialised.
Lastly, two things. Auba, despite his timekeeping, is liked by the players, particularly the young ones… even if he hilariously mispronounces the Hale End academy as Halé End. Secondlly, he has mostly kept a dignified silence throughout all of this, even though the Telegraph reported today that he is mystified by the severity of his punishment.
This is our club.
Claudevian, agree with pretty much all of that. I think there’s probably more than what has been made public, but it can’t be awful or it probably would have leaked to Ornstein. And while I’d like to think Arteta is smarter and less spiteful than this, I’m starting to have concerns.
And yes, given the current situation, relative to scoring options, it’s pretty hard to see where he wouldn’t have at least some value coming off the bench. At this point, even an experienced mid-level striker from the Championship would probably be better than what we have. If Lacazette gets hurt, and Auba’s done, we’re screwed.
Either Ornstein doesn’t know, or he does and is keeping it to himself.
If he knows (and therefore understands the reasons) then there’s no point, as a Journalist with inside info, to burn your bridges over a player who is very definately, on his way out.
If you consider the current manager is a narcissist, in that he has little empathy or loyalty to others but is highly ambitious and driven to succeed it helps frame your perspective.
We’ve moved from a very pastoral manager to quite the opposite. But that’s what many posters called for – a guy that would come in and take no prisoners.
And having a narcissist as your manager is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s good to have a leader with drive, ambition and laser sharp focus, but the price is there will be collateral damage.
In the Kroenkes he’s found the perfect opportunity as they’re hands off, don’t really care and the money is small change in the grand scheme of things.
What we have to hope for as fans is that he does eventually come good and delivers success without burning the house down.
My view on Arteta is he’s the kind of guy who’s extremely interested in displaying his authority. Up till and beyond the point of it being about what is good for business. Even though the employers themselves seem to not care or don’t know what’s what.
Forget his previous with Ozil, Guendouzi, or Saliba. I really had my hackles up after he spoke about Torreira following his mother’s death. I also remember how he reacted to someone at Arsenal leaving a door open while he was giving an interview, and how the poor guy kept saying sorry boss, which only made him show even more annoyance.
Tim mentioned Mourinho, and while I agree, I have to say I think Mourinho, until a few years ago when he started believing his own BS, was ramping his personality up to 11 for the cameras, and sometimes to take the heat off his players.(Always 1 scapegoat though) Arteta just seems to be this guy he shows. He’ll keep needing more and more transfers to prevent any players clique becoming more powerful than him. Everyone who buys in right now is at Arsenal because it is a new step up in their careers, or are playing for a contract elsewhere and have no cause to pick a fight. I know this is a whole lot of speculation, but hey, what else do we have?
Oh we do have the transfer market. I don’t really get excited by prospective transfers anymore, though. I used to enjoy imagining how this or that player would fit in and what he would bring to the team dynamic. Now, I’m fairly certain whoever plays will at best, add only efficiency, and not bring a shift in how we play.
As we’ve wandered into Arteta territory I’m going to offer my own speculation, not to start a fight but to compare notes.
I don’t read Arteta as an authoritarian. Authoritarians love to give orders and exact punishment. They love being the grand leader and love the sound of their own voice. They prefer being surrounded by followers and weak, compliant people who they can bully.
I think he’s the opposite, he wants professionalism. He wants his people to be smart, motivated, committed and show aptitude, he wants them to get on with it, and he is impatient with people who do their jobs badly or don’t know how to do their job without being told. He is even more impatient with people who put their personal considerations, pride or ego before their job and before the collective effort.
That might not be a significant distinction to you, or it might make him even less likeable, that’s OK and it’s down to your personal POV.
I’ve already given my view on the Torreira thing. The player was in pieces but his public demand was impossible. Arteta’s response was sympathetic but firm, and recognised both that Torreira was suffering and that he was getting terrible advice from his father in pushing for a loan to Boca out of the blue. “Tranquilo” was right. Torreira is now back at Fiorentina, playing well, in Italy where he lived since he was 16, not at Boca who never asked for him.
I had no idea about the closing the door thing so I googled it and found this: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/03/13/the-rage-in-his-eyes-fresh-footage-of-arteta-seething-has-some-arsenal-fans-talking/ I was expecting an eruption of white-hot rage or Batman saying “you’re f*cking dead to me” or something. Not just mild exasperation with someone who is apologising all over the mic while he’s trying to start an interview.
Anyway.
I understand why those who dislike him see him as either the cause of, or the face of, or a symptom of the decline at Arsenal, a loss of values and standards. I see that decline very clearly too. But I get frustrated when his actions are held up as examples of the decline, when I see them as part of a clear attempt to fight it. For example, I am super happy with players’ cliques not being more powerful than the manager. That’s exactly the way it needs to be.
I think you’re being very diplomatic and even perhaps a bit soft with Arteta but I just want to point out that your own definition “Authoritarians love to give orders and exact punishment” is Mikel Arteta in a nutshell. This is a guy who barks orders from the sidelines and routinely punishes players by dropping them, removing them from the field, and ultimately sending them to gulag – which he has done with both Ozil and Auba.
I do agree that he gets frustrated with (certain) players but I disagree that this comes from a place of goodness in his heart which seems to be how you’re painting it.
But he also is extremely patient with certain players. Xhaka is the best example.
I didn’t mean exactly goodness in his heart. Just that asserting his authority is not the point, making people better is
Hmm.. ok. I guess so. But I don’t think he has nearly the patience you do and I think he’s quicker to discard people than you do. He’s definitely an anti-Wenger in a lot of ways and that makes certain people very happy I guess
I am not one of those people, I think you know that.
But I have to admit (Captain Hindsight) that I’m starting to see Wenger’s approach as something that just doesn’t work when you reach our current bloated organisational size and the game’s obscene financial scale.
It’s all too big to rely on personal relationships and trust. You have to have rules instead, much as the anarchist in me hates to say it. I think Wenger left us with weak foundations, and when he was no longer there to bind it all together with his personal touch it all got exposed. I don’t blame him for that, it’s just what it is.
In contrast Arteta’s rule-based and strict, and I think he has to be. Impatient, yes, except that he’s patient with players who need patience, players who are learning and developing and giving their best.
Thank you.
I would agree with anyone who suggests there are better managers out there than Arteta. I was bummed about the drab football as recently as October.
But he’s our manager and in my opinion the Arteta bashing is getting out of hand.
I interpret the same thing you do – he’s demanding. That’s not the same as being an authoritarian. I’ve played (and worked for) both types. I’ve hated both. But I always stuck around with the demanding boss because I understood that he’s trying to extract as much out of me not for his personal glory, but for the greater purpose of the team. I never get the sense from Arteta that it’s all about him, that he’s trying to pump up his profile or get more money or offers from Barcelona etc. Why would he play kids then? He wants to win plain and simple and he most importantly he wants Arsenal to win.
I have no way of knowing, but I’m theorizing that both Ozil and Auba were given time and space to prove themselves and they failed to answer the call. Ozil was played regularly when Arteta first came in and then sidelined because he couldn’t (or wouldn’t) rise to the occasion. He’s having a rough go now in Turkey all over again, same issues as I understand (lack of effort, skipping training, etc).
This idea that somehow he’s an asshole who carries petty vendettas against certain players to extremes, that he enjoys humiliating marginalizing players… I don’t see it or hear it. I just don’t. We had a very lax culture for years at the club and now we’re crying that the pendulum has swung too far to the demanding side? I remind everyone that we’ve been in decline as a club for years. We could have very easily continued to slide down from 8th to 10th or further. Look at Everton, in a relegation fight. The slide has been halted in my opinion. Let’s give him that.
Jack, the “Ozil having a rough go now in Turkey all over again” talking point was slayed — right here — 2 weeks or so ago. It is not true. He has 7 goals and 2 assists in 19 matches, and is generally being lauded for his good play this season. You made a similar false claim about Guendouzi’s play.
You hate criticism of Mikel. We get it. But let’s get our facts straight, mate.
You keep accusing me of making things up. In October he threw his bib at Vitor Pereira after not being used as a substitute. He’s been publicly criticized by the club president. My co-worker is Turkish and a Fenerbahce man – he was over the moon when they signed Ozil, now he wants him gone. His good patch is the last two months… in the Super Lig, a league lower in caliber than probably even the Championship. Is anyone suggesting that he wasn’t an overpaid floater the last few years we had him here? He absolutely was and kudos to Arteta and Edu for finding a way to ship him off.
I didn’t say that you made things up. I said that what you said, “Ozil (is) having a rough go now in Turkey all over again” is not true 🙂
And that I dinged you for similarly mis-stating Guendouzi’s record for Marseilles.
In fact, they’re both having good seasons. Maybe you are unconsciously seeking validation of past actions you agree with with inaccurate current framings? I dont know. That is outside my wheelhouse.
Peace my bro.
in the last paragraph, you say your frustration is with his actions being held as the reason for the decline. is it possible that arteta could behave differently and arsenal still be in decline? absolutely. however, my gripe is how his actions as a leader have not led to the ascension of arsenal.
arteta doesn’t present as a manager or leader, he presents as a boss. his ego has led to so much waste of the club’s resources. a player’s value declines under arteta’s stewardship because he doesn’t care about the club’s money. so many players are leaving on free transfers. he’s willing to sacrifice their value for his power. he can’t bring back aubameyang from this mess because his ego won’t allow it. lastly, after watching the way arteta has treated top players like ozil and auba, what other top player want’s to come to arsenal and run the risk of being treated that way? we’re talking about superstars of the game being disrespected like scrubs because the manager cares more about his ego than he does with managing their personalities. that’s why arsenal are so young; he doesn’t know how to manage experienced superstars.
it’s not just one thing he’s done that’s lead to the decline, greg. there are many; a cascade of narcissistic tomfoolery that’s preventing the club from ascending, not so much the decline. why? he seems to lacks humility. the only way he develops that may be getting sacked.
Who exactly is leaving on free transfers?
Ozil? No big clubs were coming for him. He was a spent force on exorbitant wages.
Kolasinac? Seriously. A garbage player.
Nketiah? Seriously. A pretty mediocre, Championship-level striker.
Lacazette? The jury is out that he’s leaving. He’s 30. I applaud the reluctance to tie ourselves to an aging, low-scoring striker with a bumper deal that makes him impossible to move on. If you remember Wenger was also reluctant to sign players over 30.
Some third string goalkeeper that was never going to play for us? C’mon.
Oh, and by the way, Chelsea are losing one of the best CB’s in the world right now on a free. Bayern lost Alaba on a free. Real Madrid lost Sergio Ramos on a free. PSG is about to lose Mbappe on a free. Everyone loses players on free transfers these days. The transfer market is not what it was even 5 years ago. United can’t get anyone to buy decent players like Lingard or Martial.
To say players’ values are going down under Arteta and that’s why they’re going on frees is total Arteta Derangement Syndrome. Martinelli would fetch 30-40 million. Saka 100m. We know Villa bid 40m for ESR. Gabriel could easily play tomorrow for Real Madrid or Barcelona. This is absurd.
Agree with a lot of this, except the characterisation of Kola as a “garbage player”. He wasnt Roberto Carlos, but Emery got decent productivity out of him. It’s what coaches are supposed to do, innit? Garbage? Awful description. It’s kind of ironic that you’d so vehemently defend the manager’s treatment of players, then use a term like that to describe one of the players he doesnt favour.
I’d agree with your free transfer argument, and would cite Nicklas Sule at Bayern in support. A world class, 26 y/o CB in his prime. Many more players are choosing to run down their contracts and walk.
Value? Depends. Let’s go to Trasfermarkt. Saka’s and ESR’s have skyrocketed, Auba’s has plummeted (naturally because of age, and artificially because of his situation at the club). Guendouzi has nearly trebled his transfer value, but his loan clause means that we’re about to give him away for a can of beans, because he cant get along with Arteta. Arguments both ways.
i don’t think sule is a good player at all.
“Arteta Derangement Syndrome”
Well, that’s an unnecessary attack. Not really the kind of stuff I’d like the comments section to feature.
On the exasperation thing. I remember saying when it first happened, that it wasn’t so much how he reacted because anyone can have a bad day, or a bad moment. But how the person who was being chastised reacted. Not one firm sorry, I hold my hands up. But the submissive tone and repetition of sorry boss (which led to Mikel reacting more exuberantly rather than let it go) It tells me that’s what he expects from his subordinates. Even if you think that is just his way of demanding standards, it’s really just him exercising his power over every tiny thing out of place. If he were a perfectionist, he would apply those standards to himself first, and he clearly does not.
Disagree completely on the torreira front. It’s about where his priorities lay. He was more concerned with, again, asserting that he has the power to make that decision too (“He alone will not decide”) instead of saying something like ‘he is an Arsenal player and we will all make that decision together, while keeping his interests in mind, when the time is right’. You will not convince me on this. Not that you’re trying. But just saying that’s how sure, and angry, I am about his reaction.
On the player cliques, I didn’t say the alternative is them forming. I said he’s going to constantly need to transfer players to keep them in line. Because questions to his authority, no matter how mild, are now portrayed as a violation of club culture, thereby justifying a disproportionate response.
Greg, disagreements don’t have to be fights. That said, I think you’re right about Torreira. I don’t see how he could have handled it differently. You simply do not do things in the way that Torreira wanted them done, whatever the player’s state of mind. On Aubameyang, though (which you didn’t address), his handling of the player’s disciplinary breach has been deficient. Said my piece on why already.
Good managers don’t need to keep showing subordinates the size of their balls, but I don’t want to get into definitions of his management style, “authoritarian” or what not. I’ll just say that Mikel being a hardass would be easier to overlook if his hardassedness brought benefit. It might, in time. Said it before, will say it again. He will bring gooners round if he succeeds. Nothing succeeds like success. Get into CL and go deep into the competition, and all will be forgotten/forgiven. Play more game like we did City (and actually win), and many who havent done so yet will come round. That’s cynicism on the part of the fans, but that’s how it tends to work.
What his management has brought so far is two eighth place finishes in the league, exit from Europe, exit from all of the cup competitions by January, and football — while it flared thrillingly into life in December — that has more often than not been turgid and pedestrian. All this while being the biggest spending club in the league in the summer transfer window. While having a truckload of players on loan and pleading poverty. Among the replacements for Sule that Bayern is considering is Mavropanos. But he brought in Mari, who he has subsequently shipped out. He brought in Willian to create, while sending Ozil (as Tim says) to the gulag. A coaching and managerial savant he is not. He looks thus far like a coach who can’t handle characters, and who needs a ton of churn to to even begin to work. “I need things just so and exactly so, Josh”. In fairness, he deserves credit for the emergence of ESR, and the resoundingly successful recruitments of Ramsdale, Tomi and Ode. Balance. I’d never argue that he’s a totally bad manager; just that he has significant and worrying weaknesses in his management style, and a donnish “youre dead to me” approach to players who cross him.
On Xhaka, Tim, he came out in the press this week saying some great things about Arteta. We have worked in offices long enough to understand how office politics work.
There’s great merit in the old approach of learning your trade in a small club that is outside the spotlight with few but those directly affected noticing your tyro errors.
Wenger did it as a coach at Strasbourg and head coach at Nancy before coming to the world’s attention in Monaco and going to ‘finishing school at Grampus Eight then appearing the urbane man manager who led Arsenal to its greatest years. Ferguson learnt his management skills as a shop steward in a Clydeside shipyard then at East Stirlingshire and St Mirren (at both of which he fell out with nearly everyone) then refined his bellicose style to an extent at Aberdeen before coming to the world’s attention and taking on the mess that was Manure but never lost his ability to start a fight in an empty room.
Anyone who has had to take on managerial, coaching or mentoring responsibilities (even with but especially without management training) will have been confronted by situations for which s/he was unprepared and has had to learn by making mistakes. Some are better at dealing with that challenge than others but no-one has failed to make mistakes managing other human beings.
The dressing room is a testosterone-laden bear pit. You fail to rise to a challenge to your authority at your peril. Once respect is lost your future is bleak. I have it on good authority that Auba’s punishment fits the crime.
i’ll readily admit, not all arteta has done is bad. but the bad seems to have outweighed the good. perhaps he’s replicating qualities he’s seen in guardiola. in fact, i’d like to propose a theory.
pep has always struggled with his #9s. eto’o, zlatan, lewandowski, and even aguero have all been on the receiving end of some harsh treatment by guardiola. i’ve theorized that pep simply doesn’t understand the nature of goal scorers so it’s tough for him to appreciate their “awkwardness”. the difference is pep has always left the door open for players and doesn’t have a reputation of permanently outcasting players that arteta does. while we’ve seen pep, the greatest manager of our generation, lambast his strikers, we’ve also seen him bring them in from the cold and reintegrate their talent into the team to good effect. we’ve seen pep essentially apologize publicly to those players. can you imagine arteta apologizing to anyone publicly?
i’ve been in leadership positions at different levels since i was a kid. junior leadership, middle management, senior leadership, etc. even as a soccer coach, a member of the community, or a parent, the one thing people respect most is humanity; that mutual respect for the human condition. if they can relate to you as a human, they will have a more grand respect for you. they need to believe you appreciate their humanity and understanding that no one is perfect. we all have different struggles. they need to know that you give a damn about them.
Do I live in some Bizarro world? What are you talking about? Are you in the locker room and on the training field and present when he calls players into his office? How on earth do you know how Arteta relates to players? How do you know he doesn’t give a damn about them? When has he said anything to give that impression. Do these players look like they’ve downed tools? Not to me. We’ve seen teams where the players have quit on the manager. I don’t see any evidence of that. Zero. wtf.
some people listen to understand while others listen to reply. you seem to be in the party of the latter. i never said anything about arteta not caring about players or any of that stuff you just went on about. in the last paragraph, i didn’t even mention arteta’s name. i was just talking about my experience with leadership.
what i did say about arteta is i don’t see him having the same humility as pep when it comes to reintegrating seemingly exiled players. pep has a reputation of doing that whereas it seems arteta doesn’t even have that quality in his toolbox. you made no mention of this stuff but you went on about some other stuff where i didn’t even mention arteta.
Now you’re just being cute. So you just felt like dropping a total non-sequitur comment about human relations and leadership… totally unrelated to your criticism of Arteta in the paragraphs above? Nice try. The insinuation was that Arteta is lacking in that regard. I read your comment. I guess I understood it better than the author himself. You hate Arteta. I get it. Enjoy the misery of the next few years then, because he ain’t going anywhere.
Dang. Chambers out the door to Villa. Didn’t see that coming. Hope we got a good fee. And hope we’ve got a better backup plan for Tomi than Cedric.
Good move for him. From 3rd choice RB and 5th choice CB to probably regular games. Ive no issues with that. Good luck to him. He’s served Arsenal well, and always answered the call. Good outcome for player, club gets some money. Win win.
Speaking of which… Steven Gerrard has won the transfer window 🙂
yeah, that’s crazy. truthfully, i’m happy for him. i think he’s a good footballer. i just think he was poorly utilized in his time at arsenal. apparently, wenger brought him in after an impressive performance at right back for southhampton against arsenal. however, it was clear to me that he lacked the quickness to be a good right back, particularly against tricky wingers. i preferred him at cdm and center back. i wish him all the best.
i hope arsenal got a decent fee for him but something tells me our club probably got a ham sandwich in this deal. some reports are even saying he went on a free. we’ll see in time.
I agree with Jack Action. None of us are in the dressing room and all of the stuff about Arteta’s personality and managerial style is pure speculation. We form opinions based on predetermined biases and then bias confirmation causes us to look for evidence which supports our opinions. I am not suggesting that Arteta is a wonderful compassionate person and the players all love him but as Jack says there is zero evidence to suggest the players dislike him or he has lost the dressing room. He took over a club that was definitely in decline results wise and by all accounts the culture and had devolved downward as rapidly as our results.
Ozil has started on 12 out of 23 games this season so he has not even done enough to make himself a regular part of the first 11. Fenerbache was in first place when they signed him last season and now they are in 5th. I am not suggesting that Ozil is responsible for their fall but you would have expected if Ozil had much petrol left in the tank he would have become of first team regular against the level of competittion he is now facing. He certainly has not had much of a positive influence on the teams ability to get results
Mikel’s shortcomings are known knowns that are there in glorious technicolor.
Nice metaphor. But as you all know I’m in the same camp as Greg Jack and Bill and I’m ready to lend vocal support to this manager whom I like and respect.
“To say players’ values are going down under Arteta and that’s why they’re going on frees is total Arteta Derangement Syndrome”
Jack, Arsenals squad value was estimated at $615m when Arteta took over.
After having spent north of $200m on new and “better” players the squad is now valued at $580m by the same folks at Transfermarkt.
I’m not passing comment on the value of the squad, but I’d be very wary of using trasfermarkt as a reliable indicator of anything much. As far as I can tell, those values are whipped out of thin air by a few fans of the respective clubs. There’s no rigorous methodology behind any of it.
Tom
I suspect the highest value players on transfer market when Arteta took over were Ozil, Auba, Laca, and Pepe. How much are those same players worth now? Transfer market values are based on historical career production and the squad has been mostly rebuilt with younger players who don’t have no history of production.
Last comment on Ozil. His ability to influence the game did not drop off the cliff the way Alexis Sanchez or Willian did but the downside of his career arc has been a steady decline. In the last 4 years he has devolved from the player many considered the best creative #10 in the world to mostly a role player on a squad which is probably similar to a bottom 1/4th PL or an English Championship team. He was never a defensive asset and I suspect that part of his game is no better or probably worse. Its 100% pure speculation on my part and may be I completely off base but he was a major part some of the worlds best club and national teams most of his career. Human nature being what it is I can understand how tough to get motivated in training and on the pitch for an Arsenal team which was clearly in rebuild mode and his current team which at least based on table position looks like its on the way down. However, in fairness, If someone was willing to pay me $300,000+/week I would hang on as long as I could.
” I suspect the highest value players on transfer market when Arteta took over were Ozil, Auba, Laca, and Pepe. How much are those same players worth now? Transfer market values are based on historical career production and the squad has been mostly rebuilt with younger players who don’t have no history of production.”
Bill, Auba, Laca, Ozil, Pepe, Guenduzi, Torreira and many others are all different players at diffent points in their careers but with one thing in common…… their market value plummeted at the same time right around 2020.
Gwen and Torreira were valued at 55 and 60m and now barely at a third each.
Saliba and Fofana were teammates at Saint-Etienne and just about the same age , and same valuation at 28m.
Fofana’s market value (44m)has almost doubled even thought he’s been out injured for the season, while Saliba’s (26m)has only just recoverd from when it took a big hit right around the same time all other Arsenal players did.