Saliba and Guendouzi on the block

42 comments

1. I’m 100% fine with Guendouzi going. Even aside from the attitude issues, he was never that good. Ran around a lot, tackled OK, but poor control and poor in the air. If people are saying Xhaka isn’t good enough for our aspirations, Guendouzi certainly wasn’t.
   Much rather we give that time to AMN, Azeez or Willock.

2. We should only and always expect the best that we can give in a particular moment. Sometimes that’s only mediocre or worse. Knowing what our best is and coming to terms with that being less than ideal sometimes is the hardest part of the human experience.

3. You’ve come a long way in your writing Tim. Looking back it’s almost unrecognizable. And yet, even then it didn’t feel mid table or lower. There’s a reason so many of us stuck around, and more joined in. Go a little easy on yourself. You got this.

   Guendouzi definitely rubs people the wrong way. There was some segment for Arsenal he shot with Sokratis and the latter was so annoyed because Guen couldn’t stop laughing. He didn’t even try. I think it wasn’t good for him that Emery gave him so much game time with such little instruction, and that he was aligned with the top clique at the club. Arsenal could have handled it better too I feel. Especially seeing as needs must. But it’s not a bad move.

   On Saliba, I’m not buying the club narrative. We’ve treated him poorly from the start. First our club didn’t allow him to play in the cup final for St Etienne, then he wasn’t fit apparently. Then his loan deal was messed up and he was excluded from the PL and Europa squads while we had injuries at CB and an injured Mari was kept in. I don’t care what Arteta saw in his attitude but it just seems like he doesn’t allow players to have personalities. Unless they’re repped by Kia and take unscheduled trips to Dubai.

   We’re destroying our values and the value of our squad ever since Raul took over. At some point the bleeding has got to stop.

   Given more chances, I think we’d have at least gotten more value from the likes of Eddie, Nelson, Willock and AMN and not played much worse than we did. I don’t even believe we’re looking to our academy primarily to have players come through for us any more. Cut costs, sell players for a small profit with a large sell on clause. I don’t know if that’s the plan, and if it is maybe it’s a good plan. But I don’t like it.

   As for my expectations for the season. No European football means less player fatigue and Arteta having more time in training. Something he’s complained about repeatedly. So I expect slightly better results and much more soul sucking football. Wengerball was the crest. This is a drag.

4. Speaking personally Tim, I always find your posts interesting, whatever topic you choose. Keep up the good work.

5. Oh! And happy Independence Day, former colonials.

   1. We got out while we still could.

      1. I would have done the same, mate!

6. I may not agree with all your viewpoints but you’re like pristine early morning air in the countryside compared to the noxious stuff you find on Le Grove & Arsenal News Review ( during the M Palmer years.

   1. Palmer was a Tottenham fan, he let on in a post!

7. Another awesome post Tim. You are a superb writer. Thanks again.

   Good luck to Guendouzi but I am not sad to see him go. On top of the issues with his work ethic or personality he is utterly unproductive. He certainly demonstrated a reasonable amount of technical skill but he has appeared in more then 70 league games and played more then 5600 in England and Germany in 3 season and he has only scored 2 goals and created 2 assists. In 2 seasons with Arsenal he had 0 goals and 1 assist. This Arsenal team desperately needs more production from its midfield and he clearly is not the player who can give the team even a tiny bit of production.

   I know that I am disparaging a sacred cow to say anything bad about Wengerball. It was fun to watch because of all of the technical skill and passing and I am sure we filled up the stat sheets with passing stats and xG but if you look at the actual number of goals we scored during those years its clear we were never really a high scoring team. I always assume the ultimate objective has to be scoring as many goals as possible and you cant fill your entire roster with technical skill players such as Guendouzi who don’t produce goals and assists and expect to be a high scoring team. 15 years of Wengerball proves that beyond a doubt.

8. I have no idea what is going on with Saliba. Time will tell. I suspect there is something we don’t know about and I agree that spending >50M on Ben White seems crazy when we have a $27M player like Saliba who has not played a minute for us. However the idea that Arteta just does not like him and is being vindictive seems preposterous to me. We have heard stuff like that for years from fans who liked certain players when Arsene did not give the likes of Joel Campbell, Wellington Silva, Lucas Perez etc etc chances. However, it always turned out the player was not as good as some fans wanted to believe. I think the real reason Arsene did not give the player a chance has nothing to do with Arsene not liking him but the fact that the player was not that good. The players that Arteta has let go so far have not exactly been great with their next team so perhaps the same thing applies.

9. 7am is the best blog on Arsenal FC, period. When I was crazy about the club, I went to 5 or 6 every day… A Cultured Left Foot, Arseblog, Online Gooner. Couldnt get enough. Now that I have less time for that, this is pretty much the only one I come to, almost every day. The writing is top-notch, the analysis is deep (and of the quality that is non-existent elsewhere), and the community is (mostly) thoughtful.

   We’re lucky to have this.

   Thank you, Tim.

   1. +1

10. Shard, well-described situation on Saliba. In my long expositions on the previous thread, i’d forgotten about Arsenal not allowing him to play in the French cup final. That’s how keen they were to have him in London ASAP. Turns out that he wasnt to be registered for any competition, and wasted 6 months of pre-season and half a season.

    Tim makes an excellent point about the Europa League, and an injured Mari.

    I just dont understand folks (on here, twitter on online in general) who defend the establishment no matter what, trying to explain away a situation that’s not only strange and unusual, but unacceptable. Left up to me, I’d force them to listen to Shaggy’s preposterously denialist song, “It Wasn’t Me”, on a loop for 24 hours. Because clearly they’d consider Shaggy’s excuses credible 😀

    That’s no way to run a club that we’re told is skint.

    You know what the funny thing is? In 3 years, none of us has seen the kid in Arsenal colours. Not even in an exhibition or Carabao Cup early-round game against Wheelbarrow United. But yeah, loan again.
    _________________

    Im not against us buying Ben White. Even if, when I consider the market, the price tag surprises me. I think it’s fair to see what he brings. But on the value front, how we’ve handled Pepe and Saliba give me pause.

    And btw, on the irrefutable evidence of YouTube, it appears that White plays a lot of RB, and does a lot of ferrying/carrying — running with the ball at his feet. Looks like he’s going to play RCB in a back 3, the Mustafi role in a back 4 (the right sided CB in the middle 2) and even RB if we’re short through injury or Hector goes.

    I get Tim’s concern on aerial ability. Dude is half an inch under 6 feet tall. Not good. Not for the EPL. Im thinking more and more that he wont play much CB for us.

11. Off topic, Tim, your pick of England for Euro is looking sounder by the day.

    Traditional aerial strength allied to a HUGE technical leap. Sancho, Bellingham, Sterling, Kalvin Philips… the influence of world class continental coaches (and Bielsa in the case of Phillips) is showing. England are some footballing side now.

    I really like Phillips of Leeds, a holding midfield player who knits the play well and keeps it simple. But if we moved for him now, I expect that he’d cost a pretty penny. The English tax, or Premiership Premium. That is partly why White costs so much.

12. Claude, Arsenal are American owned so perhaps the club can rebel against the burdensome English tax, again.

    1. Perfect Fourth of July post, Tom. Happy Fourth, to whom it applies.

13. On a slightly different note Tim, I think you recommended Embers of War at some point. Just finished that, it was very good, so thanks for the recommendation! Did you try the sequels?

    1. I have! I read them all. Not as good as the first book but easy to read and decent story line.

14. Tim, your writing is like Harry Kane’s footballing: he is so good that even on days off he is needed. He puts in the work and he has the talent. A goal is always a possibility and over a few matches goals are a certainty. You also put the work (the depth of the analysis, the information gathering…) and your talent is obvious to all: a nice turn of phrase, an interesting insight, a moving anecdote is always around the corner. Kane makes the others play better while you allow a community to express itself and to bond across continents. You can no longer go wrong! And I want to thank you for the regular pleasure of reading you and the others. (Sorry for comparing you to a player playing for the wrong club, maybe not for long, but it struck me that he was a bit off for two games and indispensable for the next two games during the Euro. Talent never lies.)

15. When the quality of your work matters to you– it matters to those who will appreciate it.

16. I have worked with so many young players and been around professional setups around the world, and one thing that I have carried with me throughout my life is appreciation for a certain aspect of play that very few players have.

    I get this feeling (nothing sexual) when certain players put their foot on the ball. Some players are very present in a game but you rarely feel like they are in control of what is happening in the entire game, Ozil is an example. Very good on the ball, but shows up in spirts where he does something intelligent and then has to vanish to create danger with his movement and positioning.

    Some players are very much present in everything that is happening on the pitch, defending and attacking, but rarely do you feel like they are in control. If anything, it feels like they adjust to what the game asks of them, Ramsey is an example. A lot of drive, tenacity and stamina to do whatever he wanted to do and very much did. Running, tackling, passing, etc…

    Some players are the pivot that the team plays around. These players are their teammates’ out-ball and source for possession, we like calling them “walls” because they are who you bounce passes off of. Our dear Coquelin was one such player, along with his tackling, but now Elneny fulfils that role.

    None of those types really give me the same feeling as when you encounter a talented young player who puts his foot on the ball, looks up and at that moment, you see what he is thinking.

    “I am going to take charge if this game, and the only way that I don’t, is if your team or my direct opponent is special. But even then, it won’t be easy because I intend to test how good you really are.”

    That is what I got from Guendouzi, the same feeling I got when watching Michael Ballack and more recently, Camavinga, Saka and Pedri. In one word? Personality!
    Most people on this planet are a bit passive and many battle with self-confidence. The younger you are, the worse it is, especially when stepping up from development structures or lower leagues. Even in those youth structures, it is daunting stepping up to higher age groups, but there are those special players who are just not fazed at all.

    Matteo is talented on the ball, and if you disagree, I believe you are smoking something too strong for you. The boy can not only keep up in environments that test your technical abilities, but control such environments and dictate the way the game will flow. The level of technical ability required to buy time at that level is crazy and for someone so young (22) to not only have the ability, but also the confidence (or arrogance) to put yourself front and centre at EPL and Bundesliga level was and still is astonishing. Matteo, the press breaking, volume passing, box-to-box tempo player is among the best around at his age range (20 to 24).

    Speaking of age, there is a big problem that is maybe stopping people from seeing Matteo for what he is, and it is that the boy is judged in the same way that you would pass judgement upon a more senior and well established player. The idea of young players is that they are very good for their age, but they have so much time and room to get better. The boy just turned 22 in April, but was already a key player for a top 8 EPL side at 19. How many players can you name in the same age bracket who do the same? Guendouzi, from the moment he stepped foot on the pitch for Arsenal, has played with an assurance on the ball that belied his young age, but let’s not forget that he is a youngster.

    I have also encountered this narrative of a player not being pursued by multiple clubs means you are not that good. Sorry Tim, but It is an easy way to confirm the opinion of someone’s perceived quality, or lack thereof, at this level football. As Arsenal fans, I know that the concept of squad planning, squad dynamics and responsible financial management are foreign, but most teams do not just signed players without proper planning first, especially since English teams are wising up to the importance of a director of football.

    Gianluigi Donnarumma is an example of a player that was available on a free, whose agent (Mino Raiola) had to ask for a favour from Leonardo at PSG to take the player on board. The boy is an exceptional goalkeeper who would command a start in most sides in Europe, but if your club has a clear direction and approach to what it’s trying to build, even if quality players become available, you can keep away. The days of Wenger buying Ozil a few days into the season because he suddenly became available and he has admired him for a long time, those days are gone. That season, squad building wise, what we really needed was a player to sit behind Wilshere (at the start of his injury issues) and Ramsey.

    Guendouzi is a specific type of player, who just became available. Clubs are working on the bigger picture these days and not signing the first talented player who becomes available. That is why protecting the value of players you would like to sell is very important right now, the bidding clubs are much fewer and it will depend much more on how valuable he is to your club, rather than the player’s actual value. And that is the reason for Ben White costing 50 mil, Brighton don’t need to sell and Arsenal need quality at centreback.

    Attitude wise though, I feel like it is exaggerated how bad he is. I remember his teammates regarding him as more of a person who is and does dumb things, than a person who is a spiky character like Nasri and Ceballos. The Hertha coach’s quotes prove this more in that he is a kid that needs to start taking things a bit more seriously and become a bit mature in how he handles things, but never a player that divides or brings hostility to a dressing room. And as much as attitude reflects leadership, we also have to ask, what are these “attitude issues”? And how they differ from what other players do. We have seen and heard of fights happening at Arsenal, more so last season, so fights are normal. What actions could these problems be that constitute the boy having attitude problems?

    Guendouzi was also not dropped by Emery, and this is also used when speaking about Ozil where people say Wenger dropped him. They only missed games when they were rested and both their records reflect the forthcoming European ties that they played in as periods where both players were absent from the EPL line-ups.

    On my part, I will follow this player’s progress at Marseille. He might make it big, or he might not, but even if he stays at the level he is at right now, it would lead him to a lot of success. He is rare in football, especially at his age. And as with most of the young players that I have worked with, around the ages of 8 to 13, who now have personality, all started off really annoying and would be a pain to deal with. Some grow out of it early and some carry it through to adulthood, but it is unquantifiable and hard to understand. The strong headedness can make you ignore peer pressure from drugs or a coach trying to help you. It is all in how it is channeled. But when channeled well, you get a dedicated, professional who will lift those around him to the standards that he holds up for himself.

    Such people need guidance and understanding, a firm approach but fair as well.

    “30 per cent of coaching is tactics, 70 per cent social competence. Every player is motivated by different things and needs to be addressed accordingly” Julian Nagelsmann.

    1. “Matteo is talented on the ball….the boy can not only keep up in environments that test your technical abilities, but control such environments and dictate the way the game will flow. The level of technical ability required to buy time at that level is crazy and for someone so young (22) …. the press breaking, volume passing, box-to-box tempo player is among the best around at his age range”
       _______________________

       Guendouzi reminds me in his play and with those long flowing tresses of Cyrille Mackanacky, who glided over the midfield for Cameroon in Italia 90, and played a big part in Cameroon v England being one of the world cup’s best ever games.

       I’ve been watching football a long, long time. I did some sports reporting too. My favourite variety of footballer is the central midfielder, and my favourite two Arsenal players of all time were our 2 Number 4s, Cesc and Vieira. Of the Arsenal players, I liked two Number 8s, Ramsey and Arteta. I loved watching Mesut’s and Santi’s natural ball intelligence (although, until Wenger reassigned Santi to CM, they were both forward midfieldiers).

       Quick aside… Cesc did something I saw Xhaka do a lot against France — take 4 our 5 quick glances around before he even received the ball. He knew what he was going to do with it before he got it. Now granted in a game of that slow tempo, Xhaka had a lot more time to survey things. Cesc did it in the hurlyburly of the fastest paced of premiership games. First time I saw the guy play at 17, I sat up and (metaphorically speaking) rubbed my eyes. Some players do that to you. Couldnt believe the composure, vision and intelligence of the kid. Cesc also played with his head up. You get the impression that he was two plays ahead of everybody else.

       I appreciated what you wrote here about Matteo. I not only watched him for Arsenal… I also watched him a lot for France youth teams, and as I’ve said before, he’s more offensively minded, and he looks ahead of his peers developmentally. He has had senior call ups by Didier Deschamps, to one of the richest squads in world football. Attitude wise, I hope that he figures it out, settles down, and shines. I think — productivity at Arsenal notwithstanding — he’s a superb young footballer. I’d have loved to see him grow at Arsenal, in the way that someone like Ramsey did.

       On the bad side, he’s a bit of a d***head, but he’s a 22 year old d***head. I didnt like his short fuse, the moaning at the ref, that way in which he was virtually begging to get a card. I see Arseblog making many of the same points as Tim about low productivity, and adding that he was a poor header of the ball. But he’s a back of the midfield player. What was more important was his play there. Until he grows and understands his game better, he’s not going to give a ton of goals and assists from deep midfield. Perhaps Cesc and Ramsey spoiled us! He’d sometimes switch off and get blindsided by clever runs, but positional coaching and structure can solve that. His coach’s tactics often exposed him and/or Xhaka. It looked a case of the players being unsure of whose run to pick up and track, not just him. Of course the responsibility is his to take, but playing with Granit and Mustafi exacerbated that.

       He’s a player I like, and whose progress I will follow. That’ll be easy. He and Saliba will be playing in the Europa, for 5th place Marseilles. In a twist of irony (and I say this with regret), the club for which neither is good enough won’t be.

       1. “On the bad side, he’s a bit of a d***head, but he’s a 22 year old d***head.” now that had me cracking because what came to mind for no reason was, “On the bad side, he’s a bit of a d***head, but he’s our d***head, and we have to love our d***heads, even if the are d***heads”.

          But anyways, there is something about central midfield players that just amazes right?! They give me more jaw dropping moments than players in any other position.

          I always thought it was because I played central midfield as well, was technically good, Dribbled very well, robust, had energy for days and very good recovery pace (cause for my Achilles tendon rupture). So I always admired the things that I couldn’t do or knew were very difficult to do.

          One thing was what you mentioned about Xhaka and Cesc. I do believe that it is something that players are trained to do in development until it becomes a habit, instead of a natural tendency. It is quite difficult to learn after the age of 20, so Cesc had a head start in La Masia, but he is among the best at doing that. It might just look like turning your head a couple of times, but with someone like Cesc, the scanning and analysis that takes place in those milliseconds is astonishing. Players who do that and react accordingly amaze me. Its the reason that a no touch turn in the middle of the pitch excites more than a dribble out wide (still super exciting though).

          Another thing I have always admired was a central midfielder’s ability to demand and get on the ball. It seems like the most simple of things, but to be switched on and in the mindset of being in control of the destiny of the game, for 90 minutes, is something I just couldn’t get right. By 20 I realised that it was a personality thing, a trait that you either have or not. By 27 I realised that with enough experience you can do it against inferior opponents. To be a 17 year old that does that, and in such a way that it seems like its just his default way of playing? Cesc was truly one of a kind.

          I remember Tim pointing out the difference between Ainsley and Ceballos, when speaking about Maitland-Niles as a midfielder. They are around the same age, but Dani’s play naturally demands the ball, he seeks it out and wants to do something with it, while Ainsley waits for the ball to come to him (what I was like). Willock is a similar player in that he disappears in games, even though under Arsene he was played deeper and told to keep things ticking.

          But Cesc was incredible wasn’t he?! Especially at his age. Since then, only one midfielder even comes close to replicating what I saw with Cesc, and thats Pedri. In short, Cesc was a great player, but not the standard we should ever use to determine whether a young player is good enough for Arsenal.

          “Don’t let the great be the enemy of the good.”

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    With this deal, I’ll only be taking along a hundred dollar Gretsch. Totally worth it, right?

    1. Is this legit?

       1. Oh crap I bought one

          1. Glad to hear it, Greg. Hope it works out. Do tell us. I’m a Fender/Gibson guy, Teles & Strats mostly but Gretsch makes some quality instruments.

             1. It’s a scam. The tells are only pay by PayPal and the real Gretsch site is a .com.

          2. Yeah, I didn’t go through with the order in the end, I guess it’s one of those where if it looks too good to be true, it is.

             https://www.gretsch-talk.com/threads/is-this-a-scam.211795/

    2. that’s freaking bananas, bro! if i needed one, i’d be all over that. i’ve got what i need and i’m just not that passionate about it…yet.

18. Devlin

    I was part of different blog for about 10-11 years starting around 2008 and if I had a dollar for every time I heard a fan comment that a specific young player had something truly different and special then and it was only a matter of time before he breaks out then I would be a very wealthy man. Forgive a bit of cynicism when I see it again but the reality is we have a very large sample size and nearly all of those supposedly special players ultimately hit their ceiling in the championship or a smaller team in one of the smaller leagues somewhere outside of England. Gnabry is the closest but other then perhaps him I have not seen a single one of the many players who have been so heavily hyped actually reach close to their lofty potential. Comparing him to Fabregas or Vierra seems like incredible hyperbole.

    If he really has all of the vision and talent on the ball and box to box tempo you believe then I can’t accept that a central midfielder who has that level of ability and touches the ball as often as he does can only create 2 assists in > 5600 league minutes in around 70 league games. You would think he should have double digit assists by now just by accident.

    I think the bottom line is the way he plays is eye catching with the energy and the incredible hair but and that leads us to significantly overrate the effectiveness of what he does. We have seen dozens and dozens of examples over the years that eye catching and effective are often not the same.

    1. Hey Bill, you are right about young players being touted as the next big thing and their talent level exaggerated. and yes he has low numbers and what not as well.

       But like CLAUDEIVAN said below, you missed the point I was making.

       I remember one game, under Emery, where we tried to press in the opponents half, Ozil (joke of a defensive player but bless his heart) pressed and for some reason was marking on the wrong side, leaving an easy path towards our goal. The opponent hen went forward and encountered Matteo, I bet the opponent was thinking that he might be forced backwards, but behold the genius Matteo doing the exact same thing that Ozil did and marking from the wrong side, leaving a clear and open path to goal.

       What I saw that day was a player with shortcomings, but a willingness to learn from his seniors, as we know how much Matteo admires Ozil. I laughed at how stupid both their defending was on that day but I left the game with hope for the young boy. Because as time went, I started watching his positioning in the defensive phase, his body shape when defending and his reading of opponents’ next move. The boy was improving, and to think that he was only 19/20 at that time.

       So like I said about judgement of Matteo, are we only supposed to rate a player when they are blowing opposition away? That neglects the appreciation for how these players get there. And if we do not have money to buy players like Goretzka, Kimmich, Verrati, Barella, Pedri, Rodri, Saul, Koke, Joan Jordan, Casemiro, Arthur, Bentancur and etc, then isn’t it worth investing in not only buying young and developing, but also investing in these players though understanding of where they are with regards to their careers?

       So I judge young players as just that, young players. With time, I will see how they develop, and then I can learn what to expect from them . Guendouzi isnt getting assists galore or even creating bucketloads of chances. But when I watch him, expecting such will leave you forever disappointed in him because that is not what he brings.

       I don’t think he has vision, but he has talent on the ball, which does not mean he can do anything he wants on the ball. He is not an attacking player so his talents will not lead him towards the parameters you have judged him by. Like I said, after watching him for us, and instead of trying to make him fit my definition of what he should be doing, I let his performances tell me what he does well. That is why I described him as a “…. the press breaking, volume passing, box-to-box tempo player”, and the stats that judge that, will tell me how good he is amongst other players who play central midfield.

       So yes he does not have assists, he probably will never have high numbers of those. Yes he does not have goals, but he probably will never be a high scoring midfielder (not easy).

       What he will do is continue taing control of games, and with time and growth, he can become a very dominant midfielder in a way that has not been seen for many years.

       Dont let stats mask the significance of the strength of character of a player, it will lead your analysis astray. Viera was amazing for more than his goals, assists and tackling stats. There is a lot that happens in between either scoring or conceding. Ignore that at your own peril. Apply stats correctly and you will not only have a better analysis of a player, you also learn a lot in the process.

19. I fully understand the goals and assists are not the only thing that you use to judge an attacking player. However, players who score goals and create assists are obviously very valuable to their team and there is nothing Arsenal need more. Additionally putting up those end product stats is huge bargaining chip at wage negotiations. Players who are good at that get paid more and it helps give them the potential opportunity to move to bigger teams. I can’t believe there is an attacking player in the world who would not want to score more goals and/or create more assists if he could. Guendouzi certainly has had the opportunity to create assists and if he is really that talented then why not use that talent to help his team and further his own career goals?

20. You mean you’re not “a very wealthy man” already, Bill? With a stable of 10 thoroughbreds? Had you figured all wrong, pal 🙂😎

    The line I forgot to put in (because I suspected that the comment could be subject to mis-comprehension), was that saying one likes what CMs bring to the game and saying that they especially liked the games of Cesc and Vieira, is not the same as comparing Guendouzi to them. No proper reading of the piece would conclude that.

    See this 👉🏽”I hope that he (Guen) figures it out, settles down, and shines.”

    Overall, I think you miss the nuances in the exchange. Devlin can speak for himself, but nowhere does he argue (in extolling the virtues of a player), that football is a sure shot. Jeremie Aliadiere was a silky smooth forward… a beautiful player to watch. He never hit the heights. I think that folks fully understand that a player can have football skills that they like, but they may not make it to the mountain top.

    I look forward to following Saliba’s and Guen’s progress in Ligue 1 and the Europa, and hope they get significant play.

21. Claude

    The number of players like over the last 15 years that have something which catches the eye of fans which causes them to over rate their skill and potential has probably moved into the triple digits. In Guendouzi’s case he plays with a lot of energy and runs around a lot in midfield, touches the ball a lot and has fantastic hair. Devlin is not the first person I have heard compare Guendouzi to Fabregas. Unfortunately the eye catching quality does not make him an effective player. I think most of us have acknowledged that he has some issues with being coachable, he is poor defensive player and he provides zero end product. Is that really the player we want in our central midfield? As you indicate in your last comment the reality is history proves the vast majority of players we like such as him have never reached the potential ceiling that fans like us believe they might have so how many years do we keep him on the fringes of the squad patiently waiting for him to figure everything out?

    1. Bill, my point was to NOT compare young midfielders with Cesc. Cesc was great, and any comparisons would lead us to ignoring good players just because they don’t match up to a great talent.

       Imagine being upset at signing Tavares because he is not as good as Ashley Cole was.

22. If you have a player like Guendouzi who has some issues that prevent him from being a good option for regular first team minutes but you believe he has potential and you don’t want to sell him for almost nothing then one option Is to send him on loan for a few years and see what happens.

23. bill, i understand your position when you say young players are always hyped up. everyone is always looking for the new hotshot, seemingly so they can say that they saw him first and knew he was gonna be a hotshot before everyone else. don’t listen to those guys. make your own assessment by watching the said player.

    most fans see a player with good talent level and declare that person is special. for me, when watching a young player, i’m looking for two thing before i say a player is special; temperament and sound decision-making. cesc, ramsey, van persie, vieira, reyes, henry, cole, anelka, etc. all had both qualities and that’s what set them apart from all of the new hotshots that didn’t make it. merida, walcott, wilshere, and many of the other young players that didn’t become stars just didn’t have those qualities. the thing that angers many arsenal fans is that guendouzi has both the intelligence and temperament and arsenal got lucky to get him on the cheap, but arsenal are giving him away for a ham sandwich. why? because arteta lacks the experience to properly manage him.

    this is why i don’t love arteta as a manager. he just doesn’t know how to manage special players or players that aren’t to his liking. the thing that made wenger a great manager is that he allowed players to be themselves and his players knew wenger cared about them and their careers. will guendouzi, torreira, saliba, ozil, and others say that arteta cares about them? saliba missed out on a cup final. why? saliba and torreira needed compassion from the team as they dealt with family issues but didn’t get it from arsenal. why? lastly, saliba has a chance to be an olympian but he’s been forced to withdraw from the france olympic team. why? the 2 gabriels are going. too many players are simply unsettled under this arteta-led team.

24. Unless a club has a crystal ball, every single acquisition is made on some amount of hope. Experienced players like Willian, “middle aged” players like Partey, young players like Lokonga, existing young players like Smith Rowe.

    That’s not to say that clubs dont use professional assessments and metrics… they do. They have scouts, they have science, they have data (and Shard will argue they have Joorabchian 😊). For players already on their books, they are also able to assess them on the training field.

    So about the oft made assertion that some (even many or most) young players dont realise potential or high expectations, what’s that an argument for, exactly? Not buying anyone young? Not keeping and elevating a player you already have who’s young and has potential?

    Bojan had the best footballing education in the world, and for a while looked like the next big thing. He never hit the expected heights. But his peers Xavi and Iniesta made the impact that had been expected of them. It is an inexact science. Doesnt mean that it’s wrong or misguided to give ESR or Willock an opportunity that their current potential suggests they deserve.

    The smart thing to do is mix it up. Buy some proven experience, buy some potential, promote some potential from within your ranks. What is the point of having an academy, if you dont give promising youngster a shot? It’s not “Project Youth”… it’s footballing and financial common sense. It’s also a bit of romance, which sports fans will always have in their heart.

25. emi martinez with great saves in the penalty kick shootout against david ospina…so happy for that young man.

26. Claude

    Every team in the world wants to develop its own players from their own youth academy. Its sort of like finding the holy grail when it happens. However I think there are several points to the argument I am making

    1) Its rare that you will have a success developing your younger players into first team difference making players.. This is especially true for the bigger teams because they can just buy an experienced player and they don’t have to wait for years to see how it works out
    2) When you are making squad building decisions you can’t make the assumption that a younger player is going to develop and improve year after year and reach his hoped for ceiling. We are probably not going to build a top 4 contending squad if we build the squad with the expectation Saka, Martinelli, Nketiah Balogun are all going to start scoring regularly because the chance of success is low and it does not work as planned the team ends up in mid table for a long time
    3) Giving players a “chance” is not as easy is it sounds and there is potential for significant downside. Take for example Kieran Gibbs. Arsene believe he could build his own stars and Gibbs was going to be one. He played thousands of first team minutes over 4-5 years before Arsene acknowledged that Gibbs was never going to be as good as we hoped and we bought Nacho. I would argue it would have been better for the teams results if we had bought someone like Nacho several years earlier

    I am sure there

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