Arsenal are in danger of veering off their normal path, taking the transfer market seriously, and addressing several of their most obvious needs all in one summer. And if they do, they could end up looking like a mostly competent football club.
The big problems at Arsenal this summer are obvious. Arsenal need a backup left back, two midfielders to replace the two departing loanees, and a backup keeper. Those are the most basic and most pressing needs.
In addition, Arsenal need to lower our age profile across the board. Too many of our main players last season were approaching football’s version of old age. You know how historians say “the average person in 1890 only lived to be 35” well, the same applies to footballers. We need to be planning for the future, buying guys in the 19-24 year old range, and stocking the team with up-and-coming talent.
Folks would also like Arsenal to sign a right back as well and I can see that; it’s a key position in the modern game and neither of our RBs were impressive last season. That said, neither of our starting players seem very transferable so I’m not convinced that we will see that happen.
And finally, the other major problem that no one seems to want to talk about is the fact that Arsenal football club have 7 players on loan who need to be either moved or integrated back into the squad. And I can’t see Arsenal hanging on to any of them.
Reliable reports say Arsenal are close to signing left back Nuno Tavares from Benfica for ~£8m. Tavares ticks a lot of boxes for Arsenal: he’s a left back, he’s fast, good defensively, good with the ball, and he’s 21 years old. With Kieran Tierney often out injured this seems like a smart signing at that price. +2 for the Arsenal.
In midfield Arsenal are reportedly (again, these are reliable reports, not the Daily Mail) on the verge of signing Belgian midfielder Albert Sambi Lokonga from Anderlecht for ~£17m. Again, this is another good piece of business. With Granit Xhaka leaving for Roma as soon as the Euros are over, and with Dani Ceballos and Martin Ødegaard returning to Real Madrid, Arsenal need a starting MFer (or three) next season. Now, before you get too hung up on me calling him a DM (which I will do) let me just say that I know he’s a modern midfielder, someone who plays box to box, who scored 3 goals and made two assists last season. But I call him a DM because this is a guy who takes 98% of his shots outside the box (all three goals last season were shots from distance) and while he’s not putting up giant destroyer numbers (huge amounts of tackles, etc.) he’s also not a pass-master like Partey or Xhaka. It’s clear that his job is engine room for Anderlecht. At Arsenal he will be doing the same plus pressing and winning the ball back. I see him as a partner for Partey. At just 21 years old, this again ticks a lot of boxes for Arsenal. +2 for Arsenal.
The third set of reliable reports (not just some shit twitter account, guys who are required by their editorial board to double-verify sources) have Arsenal signing center back Ben White for £50m from Brighton and Hove Albion. I’ll just be forthright; I’m not convinced by Ben White. I have watched probably a dozen BHA matches this season and Ben White never once stood out to me. I have also seen his data and I’ve seen the folks trying to convince us that he’s “actually worth £50m because his passing is so impressive and his ball carrying is incredible” and frankly I have not at all been convinced.
I get that Arsenal need younger players. David Luiz is 34 and should have been axed two seasons ago but he’s finally out of the picture and Arsenal need to replace him. Arsenal also need homegrown players. Well, technically you don’t “need” homegrown players: you are allowed to play with a smaller squad if you’d like. But it’s nice to have the extra guys who you can rotate in. Ben White is 22 and so English that he’s on the English national team. So, there you go, two more points for Arsenal.
As for his data, I guess the only problem I have here is that we are paying £50m. His progressive passing numbers are fine, slightly worse than Rob holding but hardly some progressive passing monster that I’ve seen so many making the case.
And if you look at his progressive passing stats on a game-by-game basis he had 4 matches last season where he made 30 total progressive passes, and 32 matches where he made a total of 86 progressive passes. 26% of his progressive passes last season were in just 4 games.
He’s also being painted as not just a progressive passer but excellent ball carrying CB. And again, he’s ok at this, if slightly worse than Rob Holding in terms of distance per game but better in terms of dribbles and final third entries and worse in number of progressive carries per90.
He is certainly carrying the ball into the opposition final third more often than Rob Holding, up there with David Luiz in fact. And he’s dribbling more often and I see these spider charts where he’s 90th percentile for dribbling (among center backs). Yes, he is 90th percentile at 0.68 dribbles per game. Same with final third entries: high in terms of center backs but again, 1 per game.
Now, before you try to tell me that “progressive passing from center backs is important” – I fully understand that as well as progressive carries. Thanks! I’m showing you a direct comparison to Rob Holding here. It’s not like I’m saying “we don’t need passing from our CBs”.
And just to be crystal clear: I AM NOT SAYING THAT BEN WHITE IS A BAD PLAYER OR THAT HE IS WORSE THAN ROB HOLDING. I AM NOT SAYING THAT AT ALL.
I’m saying that the case being made for Ben White as a good buy is being sold to you all on the back of some very tiny stats which only look good when you either decontextualize them (by not directly comparing to Rob Holding for example) or remove the actual numbers and show percentiles.
Is Ben White a good purchase? If I take the price tag away, I’m happy with this player as a replacement for David Luiz: he’s young, British, and capable of moving the ball forward. If I look at the price tag, it’s a lot of money for a potentially smallish upgrade on Rob Holding. And not only that but we also have to talk about the pile of money Arsenal have set fire to with the Saliba deal.
Is that fair? Probably not. I probably shouldn’t worry about his cost or Saliba. But I’m going to worry about the cost because Arsenal aren’t endlessly wealthy and Kroenke has a history of minimal investment to get fans excited. So I worry that buying a CB for 50m will stop Arsenal from buying the other two midfielders that we need, a backup keeper, along with replacing any of the other starters that leave this summer. If this £50m kills our chances to sign another creative or attacking midfielder, if we have to go bargain shopping, or if we need to dip into the loan market again then I’m not sure this was the right investment.
A counter argument to that is that maybe this is just year one of a multi-year investment from KSE. If that’s the case then I’m very happy with the purchase of Ben White. When I say “Arsenal need an attacking midfielder” I don’t just mean any old attacking mid. I want Arsenal to buy a top quality player. In my time watching Arsenal, I’ve seen Bergkamp, Fabregas, Cazorla, and Mesut Ozil. Smith Rowe is almost there but if we have a chance to put him with another Cazorla or Bergkamp, then I would much rather wait a summer than just spend money. And if we are doing a multi-year rebuilding project then – again – Ben White is possibly a great buy.
I’m sorry that this is not a straightforward answer from me. It’s complicated and I won’t know if I’m happy with this until next summer or beyond.
When it comes to right back I know that a lot of people seem ready to let go of Hector Bellerin and most Arsenal fans are underwhelmed with Soares. You may want to see Bellerin sold but his salary is prohibitive. He’s one of Arsenal’s highest paid players (6th I believe) and on £110k a week. There are only a few teams in football who can afford that sort of salary for a RB and given Bellerin’s performances since his surgery I don’t see them lining up to take him off our hands. Sorry folks, but I can’t see him going anywhere. As for Soares, we just signed him! This (and Willian) were the kinds of signings that make me thing Arsenal aren’t doing a multi-year plan. But regardless he’s on £75k a week and at 29 years old, no chance any other club will take him. I think we need to settle in and accept these players.
Part of the plan with RB could be to use Ben White as an RCB – like they do at Brighton – in some games and then play Saka (etc.) in the “wingback” role. There’s some merit to that idea if they try it. Ben White does well to get forward from RCB.
And finally, the biggest question of the summer for me is what we are doing with all of the players we have loaned out.
- Torreira
- Maitland-Niles
- Willock
- Guendouzi
- Saliba
If we can get £100m for that group I think we are doing pretty well. But even with the English tax I fear that might be a stretch. Transfermarkt has their combined value at £80m.
That’s all from me today. There is tons of time left in the transfer window to get some business done and most of it will probably happen after the Euros are finished. We have a sense of how KSE are approaching the summer, let’s see how they finish it.
I agree on Ben White. That price tag doesn’t justify it unless they are betting on potential.
Purchase of Ben White at 50 million considering our circumstances smells of an obsessive compulsive behaviour , just somehow to ensure that Saliba does not get the time to prove “ the Processor in the trust the system “ horribly wrong and looking foolish.
Thanks for the article.
I don’t agree with some of your points, but nice one nonetheless!!
Chambers at RB and either Soares or AMN to compete.
I felt Calum was excellent last season and adds versatility to the squad.
Holding, Gabriel, Mari and maybe White (although for 50 Mill???) At CB.
Like you I don’t see White as value for money and I think Holding and Saliba should be 1st choice. And WTF is going on with Saluba? Hopefully he gets PL loan next season.
Tierney at LB (obvs!) And maybe that old sould band from Saturday Night Fever (Tavares) as back up.
I like this Anderlecht kid, been reading up on him. So hope we get him. It’s a bit weird how we’ve gone all in on Ben White, while I’d rather we went for his team mate Bissouma. Then again, maybe we’re getting a younger, cheaper version, who will grow into the team and club and be around for years.
Unlike you, I’d keep Whillock, think he could definitely add some goals to midfield.
And then there’s the tricky thing about the ACM and balancing that with ESR and his development.
I’ve no idea who we will go for, but I don’t think it makes sense splashing 50 Mill on a largely unproven CB at the expense of signing a decent attacking/creative hub in midfield?
Maybe Calhanoglu or Fekir???
Gabriel NOT Saliba!!
So we are gonna let 3 central midfielders, a centre back and a utility player that can cover both fullback areas, all young, just to go out and get a left back, centre back and central midfielder? All young but not rated higher than those their replacing at the beginning of the previous season?
Is there really no hope for the players we have in our current squad? Are they so bad that we NEED to spend the money we are spending on replacing them?
Even Hector Bellerin, is he not good enough for a team that failed to even qualify for the conference league?
I mean, if Joe Willock was a Newcastle development product, broke through, had the season he had over there, and was linked with Arsenal, would we consider him as not worth the purchase? Inferior to Lokonga? Not even worth a place in a squad lacking midfield goals?
These names don’t fill me with enough confidence to regard them as improvements on those we already have. It just feels like getting rid/replacing of players Mikel does not like. Different faces, same(or lower) level of quality.
Carzola/Monreal/Mertesaker/Debuchy/Podolski types of signings were what I expected or at least younger types. Very good established players, under the radar of the top clubs and affordable, in the same way as an Atalanta. But these names we are linked with, these feel like Lucas Perez/Joel Campbell/Chambers/Holding types of signings.
I am severely underwhelmed, but its funny that we are now at the point where Tim feels like he has to defend himself about being unsure of us signing Ben F*cking White! If we were serious, we would be upgrading, not trying to get in someone who is slightly better than Holding.
*Now watch all of these player embarrass me by being amazing (really wishing this hapoens).
Great post Tim. I missed the previous post until just now. Anyone who is disrespectful and does not accept that there are differences of opinion and then suggests you don’t watch the games is just doing their best to be a troll and its not worth your time to think about them.
Regarding the most recent post I don’t know enough about Ben White Lokanga or Tavares. I know we need to upgrade this squad. Its hard for me to believe there is any chance the squad as currently constructed is capable of competing for a top 4 spot. Saka has the potential to be a top player if he starts to score more goals. ESR outperformed expectations this season but he faded as the year went on I am not sure I see him as a star player. Its not realistic to expect players like Nketiah, Martinelli, Nelson, Willock Balogun, Maitland-Niles, Guendouzi, Azeez to develop into the players we need to compete with Man City, ManU Chelsea, Liverpool. That leaves finding the right players the transfer market as our best and I think only realistic option to acquire the few difference making players we need and our success in the next few years will depend on how well Edu, Arteta and our scouting staff do in finding the right players.
The other thing I simply don’t understand is how we can talk about the players we need and not mention adding a couple goal scorers. Rebuilding this squad is going to be a long term process and our 2 leading scorers are going to be age 30 and 32. Even if you believe Auba is going to have a rebound season next year at age 32, we know with 100% certainty the end for him is relatively near and neither Auba or Laca are realistic medium or long term answers. We have had zero success developing our own scorers in the last 15 years and we are not going to be able to compete with the top of the table teams in the next 3-4 years without adding players who can regularly score goals
Absolutely relentless. You just couldn’t resist 🤭
Bill is the Jamie Vardy of te 7am community. He never stops running and pestering defences. That’s a compliment, Bill.
More like a undying Portuguese-man-of-war Pepe if I may suggest 😅 Great legendary “defender” of his cause.
£50 million for ANOTHER central defender? unless he was van dijk, i think i’d pass. even if he proves to be arsenal’s best defender, how much better is he? does he make arsenal significantly better? as i recall, central defense wasn’t a major issue for arsenal.
a few weeks ago, espn posted a note asking if i could sign one player for arsenal, who would it be. it made me think, what is the one position arsenal could improve to make them significantly better and who would it be (within reason)? of course, bill would say “we need more firepower!!!” well, what arsenal probably needs is a better fuse for the firepower they already have. that could be a new player, elevation of a current player, or a shift in strategy. it looks like the ownership team is willing to spend some money to get the fans off their backs so it’ll be interesting to see how arteta addresses this.
anyone watch the england-germany match? it was as predictable as darkness at night. it was that dumb german manager, just like it was back in 2018. all of that talent and he blew it again. folks were blaming mesut and anything else they could instead of addressing the manager’s foolish approach. essentially, he stuck with klinsmann’s approach. however, when he didn’t have the personnel to utilize it anymore, namely a center forward, he didn’t change. it’s the same approach that saw germany finish bottom of their group at the last world cup and almost saw them finish bottom of their group at this summer’s european championship. low is not a manager, he’s a clown! all of the talent germany has…he’s been a disaster.
speaking of managers, anyone hear that patrick vieira is coming back to the premier league to manage crystal palace? i wanted him at arsenal. i wish him well. we’ll see how he does.
Yeah, I don’t get the Ben White thing either. It’s like we’re trying to emulate City, except we don’t have anywhere near as much money. Sure, he’s reasonably good, and English. But surely we have higher priorities for that money. Defense wasn’t the problem last year. We need goals.
The I watched Brighton play [insert the applicable amount of games here] and White didn’t stand out for me at all line is probably the most often expressed sentiment around, and one I totally agree with btw.
I saw about half of Brighton’s PL games and if you had told me Arsenal were spending 50mil on a Brighton player, I would’ve said Arsenal were paying well over the odds for Bissouma.
Totally agree, we’re targeting the wrong Brighton player. I do not understand how we fit Holding, Mari, Gabriel, White and Saliba, and when Chambers can also fill in there. Given we don’t have European football next year almost every decent top of table team has a solid pairing at CB that they ride as long as possible. Think how we rode Mertesacker/Kosielny those years ago. What a waste of resources then as the depth is not needed and don’t tell me we’re selling Mari or Gabriel, to whom? I get the argument that as an investment, there’s little downside to Ben White since his resale value in two or three years will be more or less the same or higher, but I worry that we could be spending that money better on Bissouma, another attacking midfielder and a young striker.
Given the age profiles of Willock, Guendouzi and Torreira would it make sense to keep 2 of them as the backup midfielders?
yep…especially with the afcon in january, where arsenal will be without elneny and partey, not to mention aubameyang and pepe. torreira wanted a compassionate reassignment back to south america but the club denied it because they couldn’t recoup the money they paid for him from a south american club; disgraceful. wenger would have allowed that young man to go home.
guendouzi and saliba can’t be about arteta. it’s about culture and leadership; culture in that arsenal are the favored english club team in france but arteta is dogging two of it’s young prodigies, which i believe can turn potential young fans and players off to arsenal. likewise, those players are talented and he will have to show some leadership ability to get those players to even like the club, let alone love the club the way that pires, henry, and vieira did.
if arsenal lose xhaka, now that he’s finally in his prime and has got a proper foil to play along side, it would be disastrous. guendouzi and willock are hot prospects with exceptional talent and dreams of greatness. if arteta can’t get either of them on board because of his “non-negotiables”, it should be viewed as nothing more than an abject leadership failure. we’ll see.
Torreira doesn’t seem to want to come back to the UK. And physically he’s just not anywhere near the level needed to play – not his height (which is often exaggerated) but his weight.
Guendouzi was clearly brought in to replace Xhaka but he has massive attitude problems and it’s clear that Arteta doesn’t want him.
I like Willock and thought he could be a great Arsenal midfielder but he’s got some weird technical problems: he’s just rarely involved in buildup play. That’s not just because he as at Newcastle but it was true of his time at Arsenal. He just doesn’t seem to want the ball unless it’s in a scoring position. That’s a massive problem for a midfielder.
Claude.
Do you disagree with the comment I made at 12:02 pm? SLC made the point the thing we really need is more goals and the players we are talking about bringing in don’t address that issue directly. Tim made the point that rebuilding teams generally try to get younger. Do you really expect Auba and Laca to be effective scorers for us in 2-3 years? Everyone seems to be determined to avoid talking about the elephant in the room.
Well we have some young talent at the club, Martinelli, Balogun,… Can they be the future replacements of our current first team strikers? If the answer is no, then you certainly have a point in my eyes.
Yeah, the club are definitely pinning their hopes on Pepe, Martinelli, Balogun, ESR and Saka.
Not sure if it’s an elephant. I think the club sees Pepe, Martinelli and Saka as long-term replacements for Auba and Lacazette. I’m at peace with that decision and think they should be given a chance to prove themselves. Then again, I’m also one of the few Arsenal fans who thinks that Arsenal aren’t a top four team. Which is why I’m ok with a year or two of integration/learning for those players.
You could do a whole analysis on chance creation and how in previous seasons Auba and Laca were scoring at unsustainably high rates (having now reverted to mean this season past and not because of their age) and Bill will circle back to this point and argument without fail.
PS: Bill, Martinelli scored 10 goals in his debut season. The last teenager to score that many goals in their debut season for Arsenal was Anelka. With the caveat that Anelka played in a team that was absolutely stacked with quality. Martinelli not even remotely as much.
Ben White for $50 mil is pure foolishness!
So, AFC transfer business is exactly the same as ever without all of those names of classy players mentioned.
If AFC does not get a ball winning, carrying midfielder, the up top players are toast and so are our goal scoring opportunities.
Underwhelming at best…..sigh…….
There’s a video from the guys at the Athletic on why Ben White would be good for Arsenal, and they focus almost exclusively on what he brings to the team in possession, rather than as a defender.
We saw last season how Luiz was the catalyst for lots of our attacks with long-range and progressive passes. White would bring much of the same, with the addition of being able to carry the ball out of defence, and take up positions much higher up the pitch, pushing the whole team further forward which would benefit our attack. They showed how he played well in both a back 3 and a back 4, and even as DM, how attacking he is, and how in possession he locks up the right flank.
His defensive stats were not stellar but they reflected a well-rounded defender who can do everything, and who relied more on reading the game, positioning and controlling space than on high numbers of tackles or interceptions.
So while we could no doubt get by with the personnel we have at CB, all in all you can see why he would be hugely appealing for Arteta. He can indirectly improve both midfield and attack (I know, it’s not more firepower Bill), and all the very best teams have a key player in that position.
On top of that, he’s widely considered to be a star in the making, much like Ferdinand or Stones at the same age, and likely England’s CB for years to come… it’s a pretty exciting purchase if we pull it off, and shows a proper level of ambition. I understand people saying he’s not a priority, but this is the only opportunity for Arsenal to land him at an affordable price, and it does show a laudable focus from Edu et al on getting the players they want, not just filling slots.
White is also 3.5 years older than Saliba, and it does seem to indicate that Saliba’s not viewed as ready. That’s one of those calls you just can’t gainsay either way.
I watched the video. It’s actually by Tifo football who now work for the Athletic.
They did the exact same stuff that I complain about in the article: they over-emphasize his ball carrying (which, is worse than Holding in almost all regards, other than number of dribbles (1 per game) and final third carries (1 per game)) and they over-emphasize his progressive passing (which again is worse than Holding in most measures).
Actually, his defensive stats are not bad at all.
I really feel like this is one of those transfers where people are using stats to justify a purchase and they aren’t being entirely honest about the data. They know that his numbers are worse then Holding in a lot of areas.
And his aerial prowess is atrocious. An outright liability in the air unless he’s been hiding something the last few years.
I’m going to go ahead and admit that I’m pretty worried that this player is either going to prove that stats are meaningless or he’s going to be another major spending bust for Arsenal (in other words, he could turn out ok, but never worth the money we spent on his transfer and salary).
Agreed TIm. It’s not that Ben White is bad per se, it’s the opportunity cost of the 50mm. It could be so much better used elsewhere, especially for a team struggling to score goals! I watched the AVP review of him, and while he does look good on the ball, he’s just not 50mm good on the ball. And if he gets beaten in the air, we’re in trouble. Holding Gabriel and Mari really did some great work in the air defensively, and adding White makes us more vulnerable on set plays. Let’s hope this move fizzles – for whatever reason!
Yes, Tifo, that was it. OK well I didn’t fact-check the video, so it’s good to know you have doubts about their analysis. The question for me then is why White is so highly regarded?
crazy. i watched a recruitment compilation video of him and under weaknesses, it said aerial duels. i don’t know enough about him but even his highlight videos don’t suggest he’s a £50 million player. why would arsenal pay that much for a central defender who’s weak in the air?
So basically, is he a shorter version of Luiz without the calamitous brain farts?
Tim
In the last 15 years we have had literally dozens of talented young players that we expected to develop into consistent goal scorers as they matured and not a single one has worked out for us. Most of us believe that Arsene had a talent for developing and improving players and starting in 2005 he had plenty of talented players from the academy and several very highly rated players he purchased at a young age and he couldn’t turn even one of them into a productive goal scorer. Saka has 6 league goals in 59 games, Martinelli has 5 league goals in 28 games and Pepe has 15 in 60 games so none of the 3 has started very well. Do we really believe that this group is somehow different and more talented or that the current regime will do a better job of developing them then Arsene was able to do? Not very likely. Even if 1 of those 3 beat the odds, expecting all 3 is incredibly unlikely. Its like building your families financial future on winning the lottery. Anything is possible but the odds are certainly stacked against us if that is the long term plan.
It seems that many people are working on the assumption that Arteta, Edu and the rest have the foggiest idea how to put together a successful team.
Experience over the last 18 months has shown that that assumption is likely to be misplaced.
Can anyone see Kroenke stumping up millions of pounds to buy more of Arteta’s white (no pun intended)?
If Arteta is unable to coach the players who have been with us for a time who he seems to be rejecting, what chance has got to do so with a whole group of disparate newcomers?
I want to trust the process, because of the simple fact that I don’t know as much as the coaches, scouts and Edu. Transfer fees have long stopped making sense to me. But paying nearly twice as much as any other defender for White (who was a standout for no one and on the radar of no one now making the case for dealing for him at Aubameyang-level transfer fees) gives me pause, yes. Im not going to stress it… I’ll wait and see. He could turn out to be the next Koscielny, or he could turn out to be the next Mustafi (our previously most expensive defender).
Greg, I admire your regular staunch defence of the coach’s decision-making, but on Saliba, Im not sure what your argument is. You say:
“White is also 3.5 years older than Saliba, and it does seem to indicate that Saliba’s not viewed as ready. That’s one of those calls you just can’t gainsay either way”.
Seems to me you’re straining a bit too much to defend the bizarre. Saliba has been on loan for a full season at St Etienne, wasted a full summer, pre-season and half a season not kicking a ball at Arsenal, and on loan again for half a season at Nice.There’s a body of work on which to judge him. A RECENT body of work, which, by all accounts, shows that he did well. FGS,WHEN will he be assessed as ready to even get on the bench for our great club? In any competition? Against anyone? After his fourth year on loan? Is he our next Wellington Silva, albeit a 27m, defensive version? We treated that kid shockingly, having him forever on a loan merry go round. I understand that some of the criticism of Mikel is OTT and reactive, but man, let’s ask the tough and awkward questions where they’re warranted.
If we loan out Saliba again, I’ll lose my s***. If you dont want to play the guy next season, sell him. Im kind of surprised that Josh and co let Arteta get away with the level of value destruction. White for Auba money (in this market) and nixing Saliba again would, together, be gross asset mismanagement. Something smells about this. If it’s cultural andyoure say that at 20 the player is irredeemable, you shouldnt be in coaching.
Claude, I’m not always defending the coach’s decision, but I do assume a basic level of good faith and intelligence.
I think White is a good player, and at this stage of his development, probably better than Saliba – but I haven’t been watching Saliba’s development closely, so I don’t know.
You’re the one that has a very strong position on Saliba, so I guess you must have been following him on his last year and a half of football? What is it about his performances that convince you that he’s ready?
You must think he’s good enough to start, otherwise he’s going to spend a lot of time on the bench for Arsenal, or even in the under-23s, which is a quick way to “destroy his value”.
And if instead of playing him or selling him we decide to loan him out again, why would you lose your s***? I don’t get it. I’d rather see him loaned and developed than sold – if Saliba does get sold this summer at a loss then that would be a massive shame all around, and poorly handled by Arsenal from day one of scouting and signing him.
Nobody is saying the player is irredeemable. Nobody is saying it’s “cultural”, whatever that means (I can guess). He hasn’t been on a loan merry-go-round. He stayed on at St Etienne for a year as part of the deal to sign him, since then he’s been on one half-season loan.
Arsenal butchered the paperwork on that loan, leaving him high and dry for six months at a crucial phase in his development, which was close to unforgivable. But let’s remember that he turned up aged 19 at the start of last season having played only 17 games that season due to injury and bereavement (and 13 in his debut season before that – 30 matches career total), in the middle of Covid restrictions. The decision to loan him back to Ligue Un was disappointing as a fan, but I not a massive surprise.
OK, last point: Marc Guehi is a 20 year-old CB on loan from Chelsea at Swansea, where he helped the Swans keep the best defence in any of England’s top 4 leagues last season. His credentials for a starting berth at Chelsea next season are better on paper than Saliba’s at Arsenal, but I fully expect him to go out on loan again, and I would imagine you do too. What’s different with Saliba?
Greg, which other players apart from the Wellington Silvas and Joel Campbells of this world go out on loan for 3 years in a row, because theyre “not ready”, whatever that means? And doesn’t kick a ball for his club in that 3 year period?
What does “not ready” mean? Not ready to start, or not ready to be trusted to kick a ball for the club at all? Is it physical, or tactical? Isn’t Miguel Azeez not ready? Wasn’t ESR not “not ready” at the start of the season? Make it make sense.
I’m staggered that anyone would think that any of this is regular and normal for this 20 year old, 27m player. Im not saying he’s the second coming of Maldini. There’s a ton of available stories of his performing well for Nice, after 6 months of no football at Arsenal, that can be checked out. Im simply not buying “not ready”.
Hope Mikel proves this whole discussion moot, by integrating him into the squad.
Let’s recap this. In summer 2019, we paid 27m for a young defender we were told is the future of AFC. We took the number 4, the number of Cesc and Vieira, from Elneny and gave to the kid. That is signalling with stadium lights. youre right that under the terms of the deal, SE got him right back. So, 2 years later, he’s “not ready?” Come on bro, put some batteries in that bs detector 🙂
I am firing up the bs detector for you but maybe you could spell out what you think is going on instead of implying it?
If all you mean is that we bought an expensive dud and we don’t want to admit it, then that’s possible, sure.
But I can’t tell if you mean that Wellington and Campbell were unfairly treated, and Saliba is too, and that there’s some kind of conspiracy / ulterior thing going on. If so then you need to explain to me further, my bs detector doesn’t go up that high.
A quick bit of googling to refresh my memory shows that both Wellington and Campbell had visa issues for their first few years which kicked off their perpetual loan situations, and from which they didn’t recover. I don’t see the relevance to Saliba there.
Kurt Zouma was loaned out from Chelsea for the first 5 years. It happens, especially when players are bought young, especially when they are defenders.
Or again, am I missing something?
I dont know. But I dont think that Mikel fancies the player. And I don’t like the absolutist vibes that this coach gives off. If Saliba’s integrated into the squad, then this is all academic. If he’s loaned out again, it’ll tell me that the coach doesn’t want to work with him, because Lord knows he had enough time to get “ready.” I’m not ready to call the lad an expensive mistake, if he’s never had a chance to play a single minute for Arsenal. But if he’s sent to Newcastle or anywhere else, it’ll tell me that the coach thinks just that. And another loan would be, i think, Arteta digging his heels in on a player he doesn’t want, but the club doesn’t want to sell. This is all speculative. What Arteta decides once he gets White (which looks likely if you I by the credible sources) we’ll know for sure.
I understand better, thanks. Yes, we’ll see.
Arteta definitely gives off those vibes, and I get why it turns people off. I think it’s mostly been a function of some harsh decisions he’s made, decisions that I was waiting for someone to make, and I don’t (yet) see it as a character flaw.
Ben White definitely adds fuel to your view, I can see that.
At any other big club though, you get the feeling that Saliba’s situation would pass without too much angst. Sending young players out on loan is absolutely standard behaviour, especially for defenders. As Wenger said, you’re trying to give them an education without that education costing you points.
Hang on, what’s the quote… ok, no it doesn’t mention loans but still:
Wenger: ‘You pay for the education of young players with points. If I play a 20-year old centre back, I know he’ll cost me points during the season & I have to stand up for that. A less talented 28 year old would cost me less points. However, by 23/24 you have a player’.
“What’s different with Saliba?”
Greg, for starters Chelsea didn’t pay 27million for Guehi, he’s their academy product.
Consequently, they’re not losing money having him loaned out to whatever club for however long, not that the English second tier is even at the same level as France’s league one mind you.
Also, Chelsea could afford far more easily to pi$$ money away anyways since Roman’s spending record is there for all to see, a fact you have readily brought up to our attention when justifying Tuchel’s making top four and Chelsea’s CL success vis a vis Arteta’s failure in Europe and placing eighth in the PL.
Arsenal are closer to Leicester than Chelsea in how they should operate, so maybe Fofana/Saliba comparison would be more accurate, but I suspect you’d rather avoid that one.
And lastly , when someone says Ben White is 3,5 years older than Saliba to make a point, it begins to reek of agenda to me.
We aren’t comparing toddlers’ motor skills so let’s drop the months, three years older should probably suffice for any arguments sake when comparing football players once they’ve hit puberty.
Claude, speculation of course but Arteta isn’t a bit interested in working with a player who’s gonna cost him points in his make or brake Arsenal season, especially after Saliba’s tour the force PR blitz all over the French media trying to get his version of events out.
Saliba will not play for Arsenal under the thin skinned Arteta.
I don’t know, Tom.
Listen, I’m happy to make the Fofana comparison. Leicester’s other centre-backs are Jonny Evans (33), Wes Morgan (34) and Soyuncu (25). Soyuncu and Evans were the first choice pairing. They desperately needed a young third CB in the squad to play ahead of Morgan, who’s a warhorse but basically done. Turns out Fofana did brilliantly, and held down his starting position. Well done to him, and congrats to Leicester.
By comparison, at the start of last season Arsenal had, as we all know, 8 centre backs, a couple of them experienced, most of them in their prime. We just didn’t need to take the gamble on Saliba. Or to put it another way, Saliba would have had to be head and shoulders above the others in terms of talent to make that gamble worthwhile (Wenger: “20 year-old CBs will cost you points”). I guess he wasn’t head and shoulders above.
What does the Fofana comparison even prove, anyway? That Saliba is good and Arteta is wrong? How does Fofana being good prove that?
I’m also happy to talk about the £27 million we paid, and his current value. I think it helps his market value to go on loan, rather than to disappear into the Arsenal squad as a back-up CB who gets occasional starts. For sure, if he became first choice at Arsenal and did well, his value would go up even more. But that’s all short-term. The idea behind the big investment is that he comes good for us long term, and we get the full career of a £50m-plus defender for £27m. Let’s hope that happens instead.
I’m happy to talk about the fact that Chelsea have deeper pockets than us – something that as you mention, apparently wasn’t a factor for you in the chat around Tuchel. But that doesn’t matter for my point about Guehi, which was just that it’s normal for young defenders at big clubs to go on loan, academy players or not. Chelsea aren’t pi$$ing money away on Guehi anyway, they’re getting him experience and increasing his value. That’s the whole logic behind their loan farm business model.
I’m also happy to talk about the age difference between White and Saliba in full years if you prefer – so let’s round up as is the usual practice and say White is 4 years older then. Or we can talk in first team appearances if you like – White’s 139 to Saliba’s 48, an experience ratio of almost 3 to 1. Whichever way you cut it, he’s more experienced than Saliba, which was my point.
I’m happy to talk about all of this, usually very happy to chat in general, if I’m around. Meanwhile you say I have an “agenda”, as if I have shares in Arteta or Ben White or something. It’s weird.
For me, there are enough footballing reasons to send Saliba on loan, for it not to be some mystery that can only be explained by Arteta’s “thin skin” or “absolutism”. There’s an anxiety around Saliba, and Arteta’s behaviour, that I don’t quite understand.
Greg
Saliba played ahead of Fofana in France it seems.
As for the anxiety you don’t understand, it’s the makings of a pattern. Really the only young players he’s incorporated are Saka, who had already made an impact before Mikel got here, and ESR, which was more out of desperation after Willian continually proved a failed experiment.
Saliba, AMN, Willock, Nelson, Eddie and even Balogun (and to a lesser extent Martinelli) all could have had more chances to contribute to a team that wasn’t exactly settled or firing. On top of that it’s about how they’ve been treated as people. With a lack of understanding and compassion. (I hate how Arteta responded to the Torreira issue) There is also of course Guendouzi who I feel has a behavorial problem, but who should have been managed better.
Just guessing here but it seems to me Arteta dislikes players getting opportunities without the grind he went through as a player, and he also dislikes working with players with personalities. Which wouldn’t be so much of an issue if Arsenal weren’t Arsenal and were ManCity instead. He seems to think that is the only way to succeed, but more likely, it’s going to lead to failure even relative to our resources.
Shard there is a lot of amateur remote psychology going on in your comment, you should watch that.
Jesus, I hate being the one who’s always defending Arteta. Let’s get into it then.
I have completely the opposite response to you. I’m impressed by Arteta’s compassion, honesty and duty of care to his players. I think it’s a massive priority for him. Part of that though is being firm with them and trying to stop them doing self-destructive things.
His reaction to Torreira for example was professional and exemplary. Torreira was asking for an international transfer to Boca out of the blue, in the middle of Covid, in the middle of a loan to Atletico, outside of any transfer window, as though all three clubs and the football authorities in the three countries involved would just be able to click their fingers and make it happen for him, as though Boca even wanted him.
It was a completely impossible and unrealistic request, out of touch with reality, and presumably after Arsenal said no to him in private, he went public with it, which was manipulative and made him look crazy. It was his father telling him to make that statement, Torreira said as much, and Arteta’s tranquilo response was aimed at his father as much as the player. I didn’t see any lack of compassion, I saw a lot of it in fact, compassion for a player who had not only lost his mother, but who was also getting terrible advice and pressure from his grieving family. I also saw a manager being put in a difficult public situation who handled it as well as he could.
It just goes to show that the players and their entourages are not always making reasonable demands or requests. I’m totally fine with them not always getting their way. I’m totally fine with the way Arteta tends to handle things, which is by being straightforward, as fair as possible, and making clear decisions for clear reasons.
I’m sure you will now come up with lots of examples of unfair or unclear decisions, and I’m sure there are plenty. He’s not perfect but he’s tried to act honourably as far as I can tell.
Peace
Weirdly, about Torreira, his outstanding performance against Portugal in the last world cup, in which Uruguay kept Cristiano quiet and won 2-1 three years ago today, came up today in my Facebook memories. We loved his hip-bump tackle on Ronaldo that sent the Portuguese captain sprawling. He was outstanding and defensively tenacious, against a side that was far from soft.
I’d rather have him than Elneny warming up on the sidelines to come on replace Xhaka or Thomas. I think it’s mad to sell all of him, Willock and Guendouzi. And Im going to say it again… asset mismanagement. He wants to go, so this is a moot point. Should he have gone out on loan?
Buying/replacing more than 4 players in a squad is a recipe for destabilisation. Mikel, you’re never going to buy your way to a perfect squad.
it’s crazy how you’ve allowed one memory on facebook to alter your view of this player. i’m in the minority as i didn’t love that torreira tackle. it was a horrible, unnecessary challenge that got torreira booked. have you forgotten what you saw him do at arsenal?
for me, it was plain to see during the last world cup that torreira wasn’t suited for the league or arsenal. i won’t dismiss him because of his size but more his attitude; torreira is a little guy who plays like he thinks he’s big. while that’s cute and almost admirable, i would appreciate if he respected the fact that he was not big; physics is a bitch! he’d have to work too hard to keep up with his opponents. it was clear that he would either burn out or suffer chronic injuries. it was a foolish decision to spend that much money on him, too.
“it’s crazy how you’ve allowed one memory on facebook to alter your view of this player”.
That is a hilarious interpretation of my comment.
We can differ on whether a player is good or not, Josh, but please learn to read for comprehension.
you know, i’m not the smartest guy in the world but i can comprehend what i read. i also use recall for context. perhaps my recall is fuzzy but since when do you fancy torreira over elneny or guendouzi? maybe during the early stages of his first season but has that been your position recently?
my more recent recall says that you felt torreira wasn’t suited for the league. now, you’re saying that you prefer him to elneny or guendouzi. what’s brought about your recent change of heart? i assumed it was provoked by your favorable facebook memory and the hopes from once upon a time of what torreira might be for arsenal. maybe you’ve always favored torreira to elneny and guendouzi and i’m remembering your comments differently. i’m pretty sure i remember you saying torreira wasn’t a good fit for the premier league.
Still bad comprehension, mate. Stop digging. Where do I say I favour Torreira over Guendouzi? Everyone who’s a regular here knows that I’ve argued for the re-integration of the young Frenchman, and think he’s a player with a high ceiling. I made a comparison only with Elneny, and yes, Torreira is a better player. Biff me on that, something I actually said.
And how on earth do you leap to the conclusion that (1) I changed my view of Torreira; let alone (2) did so on the basis of a FB memory?
I love your philosophy Josh, but this is what happens when you come to score points instead of making dissenting arguments. Just make your (usually very perceptive) points, brother.
Josh @ 4:07pm
Its hard for me to accept that Low is a terrible manager when his team won the World Cup.
I know you don’t want to hear this but the biggest problem for Germany right now is their lack of firepower upfront. The 3 forwards they started against England scored a total of only 20 league goals this entire season. Their other forward is Gnabry and he scored only 10 this year and they used him as a CF because they don’t have anyone else they can count on to score. I don’t care how much midfield and creative talent you have throughout the squad there has to be someone on the pitch to put the ball in the back of the net.
so you’re saying that serge gnabry, timo werner, and leroy sane are incapable of scoring goals? nuts! the problem is they have a manager who doesn’t seem to respect that they’re strikers and is playing these guys as center forwards instead. news flash: germany don’t have any center forwards so why employ a strategy that requires a center forward? this is where that coaching shit comes into play.
low won the world cup because he used klinsmann’s strategy and because the german team is stacked. it’s not because low is some good manager. klinsmann’s strategy required a center forward and germany had miroslav klose and mario gomez….two proper center forwards. even the last world cup, low had gomez available and only played him one game; it was the only game germany won despite finishing that game with ten men. the other two group games, they deployed werner as a center forward and they lost because they couldn’t create chances (sound familiar?) it’s not because werner can’t score. he scored plenty at leipzig but they played him on the right as a striker and not as a center forward.
when chelsea bought werner, lampard said he would employ werner to lead the line. after hearing that, i predicted on this very forum that it wouldn’t work and called lampard foolish for trying to turn lead to gold….it cost him his job. we’ve seen tuchel try werner up top but chelsea still struggled to score goals because that kid can’t lead the line. even at psg, tuchel tried to play mbappe as a center forward and it lead to him getting fired and psg not winning the league.
i watched the second half of the england germany game and every time the ball was played forward to gnabry, he lost it. EVERY SINGLE TIME! if you can’t win and keep the ball when your team plays it forward to you, how can you create chances? an aside: this is why lacazette is a better center forward option than aubameyang; auba can’t keep the ball either; digress. i’m sure werner didn’t fare any better than gnabry.
germany should have gone with a 4-3-1-2 or a 3-5-2; anything where they play with two strikers and not a center forward. hell, they could have used havertz as a false 9. some strikers can but most can’t just be deployed as center forwards. low didn’t respect that. it’s why he finished butt-naked last in his group at the world cup and it’s why he nearly finished last in his group at the euros this summer.
Claude @ 2:54 and 3:36
We heard the same sort of conspiracy theories about Arsene being unfair to Joel Campbell and Wellington Silva because he never gave them a chance. However, as time proven with those 2 players the phrase “not ready” was really a code phrase which actually meant we made a mistake and they were not good enough to be given regular minutes on the first team.
I am sure there are exceptions but I tend to believe the vast majority of managers first objective is to win games and they will not send a player on loan if they think he is good enough to help the team. In Saliba’s case I suspect they did not think he was a better fit for the team then Holding, Mari, Gabriel, Luiz and Chambers.
Bro, those neverending loans are a fact, not “conspiracy theories”. What a weird thing to say.
To the point from Greg earlier, the visa problems were resolved, and they still went on neverending loans. Wellington went on to Bolton, but I dont think that apart from a few non competitive games, he ever kicked a ball in anger for Arsenal.
Since you said some ish about reading comprehension, not because I disagree with you on Arteta vis a vis Saliba:
What you’re calling fact about those previous players and loans does not mean they were simply disliked. And I’ll take Wenger’s view on any player over yours any day. I know it’s fashionable, actually passe to dismiss Bill on this site, but this fragmented reading of his overall point is just bad faith. It’s what american lawyers do all day to win arguments in social settings. You’re way too cool for that brethren.
And also, because I’ve always enjoyed listening to you here claudeivan, please do tell me if I misread you; I’d appreciate it.
These things are subjective. Not an issue for me. I dont want to get into qualitative analysis of comments and prefer to stick to arguments… but I appreciate that you’d ask me to clarify.
I’ve made the point many times that Arsene was a player’s manager. He was a very fair and considerate operator, who recognised that players were human beings and employees. He let Giroud join Chelsea (solving a striker problem for a then rival), because OG preferred to stay in London for the sake of his kids’ schooling. Fergie, Mourinho, Benitez would not have.So I guess AW was allowed a screw up or two.
I hope that we never again commodify players like we did that Brazilian kid, even after we resolved his work permit problems. Success in football is like turtle births. Few make it. We do not need to operate like we’re in a meat market. Arsenal have a duty to be a progressive workplace. That is the ethos of the club, and no less than what the socialist republic of Islington demands 🙂 I hate to see clubs acting indecently. We’re better than most, but we have sometimes.
Claude, no argument from me on your response to Kafkush. If you see our current treatment of Saliba as commodification of a vulnerable young man, then I would agree, but it’s universal. Among other protections I think transfer fees and salaries should be capped for all players under 23 (at least), and I think there should be a “sh*t or get off the pot” rule that ensures young players can’t be pushed from pillar to post their whole careers.
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC ALERT: for a long time, a comment about climate change by an otherwise reasonable poster has irked me. He supported Reagan via username / profile pic if I remember correct.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/climate-crimes-oil-and-gas-environment
The second half of the article lays out the more important facts and history (first half is more about the lawsuits).
The climate chabge debate is really not a debate in most places other than the US.
Claude.
On the blog i was followed at the time there were plenty of fans who thought Arsene’s treatment of Wellington Silva and Joel Campbell was unfair and showed a vindictive streak because he never gave them any meaningful chance for Arsenal. I think the reality is it had nothing to do with being vindictive but Arsene recognized quickly that acquiring them was probably a mistake and they were not as good as we thought. A manager cant afford to give players first team minutes if he has other players who are better options. The endless loan spells were probably because they were relatively high profile acquisitions and may be he still had some hope they might improve and he also did not want to completely give up on them too soon and compound the mistake if they somehow came good a couple years later. Sort of like a poker player who has a hand that he knows probably wont win but he already has put some money in the pot and he does not want to fold immediately just in case the hand somehow does come good
With regard to Saliba he is only 20 years old which is very young for a central defender. I assume Arteta saw some things in training which suggested to him that his other defenders were better suited to play regular minutes and we already had plenty of experienced players in Gabriel, Luiz Mustafi Holding Mari and Chambers. We did not have room at that position in the first team squad and Arteta did not want Saliba doing nothing but playing with the U21’s the whole season.
So answer this, Bill… would you be fine with Saliba going out on loan for effectively a 3rd straight year? Straight up question.
My point, which, respectfully, you missed (you do this a lot), is not about his quality. I never said that Arteta should play him regardless of his quality and the competition. Here’s the rub… he’s never played a single competitive minute for Arsenal in 2 years of being an Arsenal player. OK, one year, in practice. They put second grade academy kids you never hear from again on the bench and on the plane for pre season games.
So when it comes to seeing him in Arsenal colours, you don’t have anything to judge him on there, but there’s other evidence. The club supposedly monitored him at Nice, where reports were that he immediately became an indispensable and played well. Evidence.
So there’s that body of work, and Arsenal training (to which we’re not privy). He was named to France’s Tokyo Olympics team, on the back of half a season of football at Nice. From that we can reasonably conclude that he played well to very well in the French top flight. Evidence.
Wellington at least played non competitive games for us early, including a game against United in which he scored. I dont know how folks can argue that Saliba’s use last year was in any way regular or justifiable.
Saliba is not some work experience kid to be put on a loan hamster wheel. He’s long been a promising prospect, he’s a 20 y/o, 27m player, and as of now, our number 4 in the squad. Itd be very odd and sad if we sent him out on loan again.
Arsenal need to make a call. If despite looking a good player everywhere it is still Mikel’s judgement that he was an expensive dud, that’s not the young man’s fault. He deserves better. Front up, sell him, and let him get on with his life elsewhere. Have it out with Josh about why a player at that price point never kicked a ball for us. Good luck. And better luck being entrusted with the club’s money.
But I’d argue not only that Mikel hasn’t shown us that he’s a bad player, but we have evidence elsewhere (St Etienne, Nice and in his Olympic call up) that he’s actually a good one.
“I’m happy to talk about the fact that Chelsea have deeper pockets than us – something that as you mention, apparently wasn’t a factor for you in the chat around Tuchel. “
Lol, Greg, it wasn’t a factor because Tuchel didn’t spend a single penny and that was the context of my argument. He took the squad of players Frank Lampard struggled with, and within 5 months moved it five places up the PL table and won them the CL trophy.
Arteta took over in 8th, made a whole bunch of signings and after a full season and a half still finished in 8th.
It doesn’t get any simpler than that.
You asked the question how Saliba and Guehi were different and I answered it.
One cost a club with a supposedly self sustaining model some 27 million, while the other is an academy product of a club which can afford to make terrible transfer decisions ( KDB, Salah) and still thrive.
This wasn’t to say Chelsea are mishandling Guehi—they aren’t— but rather to point out that even if they were, they could easily absorb any loses from mistakes made.
Also worth pointing out Chelsea aren’t spending 50million on White, which would suggest they are quite happy with their CB’s at the moment, so the whole Guehi example becomes even more irrelevant.
It is Arsenal who are spending 50million on top of the 27million ( probably more by now since I doubt Nice covered his full Arsenal wages) they invested in Saliba — only the most coveted CB prospect in all of Europe two seasons ago — making it possibly a staggering 80 million dumped onto one position without any certainty of an immediate tangible improvement.
Cool.
I don’t like how you all are talking to Greg. His position is perfectly reasonable, and doesn’t have to be popular to make it so.
Just re-read my posts for the first time and I can see how I could’ve come across a bit di#kish, thanks for pointing it out Doc.
Apologies to Greg.
Andrew on arseblog made a good point about our transfer business and the fan reactions. Arsenal have to face tough questions about every little decision now because they’ve gotten so much wrong in the recent past that there is very little trust that anything has changed.
It’s clear some folks don’t trust Arsenal to do anything right anymore. From from screaming about spending some money to clutching pearls when it’s a lot of money, from ironclad denouncement of a player to angry outbursts when the same player is sold for too little, from admitting we need help in every position to worrying about over saturation, from deploring that our squad isn’t good enough to lionizing even the fringe young players in the team, I’ve seen it all. Whichever side of the spectrum Arsenal happen to land on this week, the outcry from the opposite pole will be just as bad.
Hey Arsenal are signing a new player! He’s pretty good and will probably make us better!
Fans: You’re spending THAT on HIM?? I knew they were clueless
Hey, Arsenal are not signing a new player. He is too expensive for what he is.
Fans: OMG we really are a small club, my heart is broken, this player would have been THE ANSWER. I knew they were clueless.
Hey Arsenal signed a youngster to a new contract, he’s like really good and stuff.
Fans: that’s great but Sancho is better and if we were a big club we’d be buying Sancho, why can’t we buy Sancho we’ll never be a big club
Hey Arsenal let some young players go, we have much better players in their position
Fans: How could you betray this player and everything Arsenal football club stood for! Heartless beasts cutting this poor guy adrift in the desert with nary a drop of water to drink
I could go on but you get the point. It’s tiresome. Instead of hiding behind some convoluted rationale, just admit you have a basic trust issue with the club and you don’t believe they know what they’re doing until they prove it. I’m 100% fine with that.
The club decided Ben White was worth what they’re paying. They could be wrong. Let’s at least wait to see him play for us before we make judgments. I still trust professionals more than I trust myself to know what’s what.
Agree with you on wait and see on Ben White. As I’ve said upthread, he could be the next Koscielny; or he could be the next Mustafi. As I also said, transfer fees have stopped making sense to me, so we shouldnt stress over that too much.
That said, if folks saying that’s a huge fee, he never looked a standout player, is he worth it?; is a fair question. But as you correctly said, the proof of the pudding is in the consumption.
But hey man, let’s not dumb down opinions we dont agree with. Like here 👉🏽”Fans: How could you betray this player and everything Arsenal football club stood for! Heartless beasts cutting this poor guy adrift in the desert with nary a drop of water to drink”.
The argument is lot more nuanced than is presented here, and this framing is doesnt engage it at all. It merely tries to exaggerate it into irrationality. Engage it on its substance.
And hey, we should all watch our tone. Dismissively calling Devlin long winded is part of that 😉
Engaging with the arguments was never my point. My point was that no matter what Arsenal do, some fans are going to be up in arms because they simply don’t trust the leadership, and for good reason. It just gets annoying to read the endless complaining about absolutely anything. It’s your right and I don’t have to read it, I get that. But at some point it starts to drift into trench warfare and all over an essentially emotional argument. You either believe in what the club is doing or you don’t. I just wish folks were more honest with themselves about that.
And there are a lot of fans who watch players , and do make reasonably good decisions , including about the costs. Anything can go wrong or right though in another environment. But using intelligence , Clubs can cut down stupid losses like e.g. Runnarson
Greg, fair points. Im not yet ready to call Saliba’s treatment commodification. If we loan him out again, I would.
Let’s take an unusual approach, and put ourselves in the kid’s shoes. You’re 18, folks in French football (and outside) are raving about your ceiling, composure, temperament and being the next big thing in the game. You sign for Arsenal, the club of Wenger, Vieira, Pires, Petit and Koscielny. You probably have a Vieira poster on your wall as a kid (Im guessing). In the spring of 2019, you start learning English (he actually did). There’s a buzz around you, your family. Everyone is excited. You have dreams of playing well enough after your 2019/20 loan-back to get into the peripheral vision of Deschamps for Qatar 3 years later. Yes, France is loaded, but 2 injuries can open it up. You never know. Arsenal, after all, is high profile and a France manager would look there. They give you the number 4 shirt, which Vieira wore. Newcomers rarely get prime squad numbers, let alone have it taken from another player (Elneny). Your world looks sweet. Youre ecstatic.
Come summer 2020, the coach decides youre not ready, and you think that all things considered, that’s a reasonable call. Injuries, COVID lockdowns, family bereavement… the start to 2020 wasnt good, so youre not going to complain too much. Two loans back to France fall through at the last minute of the summer window, you are not registered by Arsenal for any competitions, and do not play a competitive game between August and January. By now 3 (defenders (Sok, Musti and Kola) have left, one is injured, but youre still sent out on loan. Mari and Gabriel were signed after you, Fofana (a player not considered as good as you when you played together) is getting good game time at Leicester, but never mind, youre going to give Nice your best shot. You’ve try to stay sharp for 5 months despite no competitive football, and almost immediately you’re starting for Nice. You play well enough to get called up to the olympic team.
Now what? Another loan? F*** that, me, my family and my agent would say. Play me or sell me.
Let’s take the case of Giroud, which I already referenced. We sold Giroud to Chelsea because Giroud wanted a move that let him keep his family arrangements in London intact. Arsene okayed it. Laca was keeping him on the bench, to the point where his France place at the 2018 world cup was under threat. That came back to bite us in the bum in the Europa League final, and in helping Chelsea to finish in 3rd, 2 places above us, and an agonising 2 points ahead of us, both in Emery’s first season. It is why clubs never sell good players to rivals. Chelsea wouldnt sell is a bottle of water if we were dying of thirst, let alone a Jorginho. They were happy to let us have players they didnt want anymore… Luiz and Willian.
Why do I mention that? Because the club did right by a player (which in this case I think was a mistake. I’d have told him Palace, Fulham or nowhere). It must do right by young Saliba, if Arteta has decided (as I suspect), that he’s not good enough. Name him to the squad and register him; or sell him. Dont kill his dreams and crush his spirit with another loan away. But hey, Mikel may yet prove all of this spirited debate unnecessary, by finally bringing him in.
In my view, the answer is simple.
Arteta only goes for players he likes and the only ones he likes are those who do what they are told.
For all we know Saliba said something once and has been persona non grata ever since.
It is extraordinary how many players, who we the fans feel confidence with, have been rejected by Arteta and Oziled.
He will bring in more rubbish to replace the players he does not like, or who show any independent spirit
That ESR is still in favour might be more out of temporary convenience.
He tried to replace him with Odegard and that seems not to have worked.
Rest assured he is seeking someone else who can pass the ball, but only when he is told to.
Those who tout Arteta’s coaching abilities can continue to do so. I remain unimpressed and view the disaster of last season as an indication that it can only get worse.
Saliba and the others out of favour may be better away form the toxic atmosphere at Arsenal..
“….and the only ones he likes are those who do what they are told.”
In fairness to Arteta, that goes for all of them. A coach wont remain a coach for long if he doesnt get players to do as they’re told. More to the point, players wont remain part of a team for long if they dont do as the coach tells them to. Im plenty critical of Mikel, but there has to be balance both ways on this issue. I cant see a basis for concluding that Saliba made a disrespectful comment once, and is forever on his s*** list.
Absolutely. Thought so too
Claudeivan, surely doing what you are told has taken a new dimension with Arteta. He can be clearly seen throughout the game telling the players what to do,. It is his micromanagement of every aspect of each game which I suspect many players are finding hard to cope with.
Look at the long list of players on their way out, both long experienced internationals and young up and coming academy graduates.
The “process” seems to be exactly what Arteta says, with no variation.
Is it possible that Saliba, a player that we thought worth £27m at the time he was bought, has no ability or future?
I have seen enough of Arteta to feel that I would be very happy to see nothing more of him.
I fear that at the end of next season 8th will have become an impossible dream.
Claude
Your point about Saliba already having 2 years on loan is a good one that I had not really thought of. However, His case is a bit unique because a I thought the loan back was part of the deal when we bought him. The second year was actually his first that he could have played for Arsenal but we already had a full group of experienced CB’s and I suspect Arteta and Edu felt he would not get a lot of minutes so they sent him on loan. Over the years loan spells have usually meant the end of any career for Arsenal however there have been several cases where we sent players on loan who were clearly part of the long term plans such as Bendtner, Wilshere, Bellerin. Those loan spells gave them a chance to play regular first team minutes and gain experience because they were not going to gain anything by playing with the U21’s. Only time will tell what happens with Saliba.
There have been plenty of players in the past that many fans thought deserved more chances. Dozens and dozens of youth players such as JET, Merida, Afobe Aneke Joel Campbell Wellington Silva etc etc etc. Some of them had several loan spells but in the end almost none of them turned out to be as good as fans hoped and letting them move on was the best option. There have been a mistake or 2 such as Gnabry but the reality is our coaching staff has been at least 95% accurate with not rating players the fans thought deserved more chances. I think the lesson we can learn is fans consistently over rate our own players and the coaching staff who see them every day in training and work with them extensively generally do a much better job at evaluating players then fans and they are better positioned to know which players should or should not be given more chances. Again time will tell what happens with Saliba
Bill, I did say that in effect it was one year on loan, so you already had agreement from me on that.
Still it doesnt weaken my point. You talk often about what coaches see in training and we dont; so let me throw this at you… In January, Nice coaches watch, in training as soon as he arrived from London, a kid that hadnt kicked a ball competitively for the majority of 2020, and immediately insert him into the starting lineup. That is evidence of his ability.
On the basis of half a season on loan, France football picked Saliba to their olympic team. Not only more evidence, but Im kind of stunned that he managed that. So we have all this info going back to his signing, which Ive already laid out in exhaustive detail up the thread. Then we have Arteta keeping the kid totally in dry dock for all of the pre-season and half of the season. I am offering some evidence, albeit circumstantial, that something isnt right with the coach’s treatment/handling of the player. Everything else you say that doesnt have evidentiary counterweight is conjecture. None of us is privy to what the coaches are (so that’s really not in dispute), but if you take everything together and still think that this situation is normal, well…
And I’m going to ask again, bro. What do you think of the possibility of his going out on loan for another year?
I personally think it’s a waste of everyone’s time, and so much of it has been lost already. If Im him and that is put to me, I’m picking up my jahaji bhandal and leaving town.
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On White, quickly… I said to Doc that people who question the price point in this market are asking a fair question. But let me also say what I like about us signing the player… he’s young, and he’s EPL tested. And (as a British-Caribbean dual citizen I dont want to sound too jingo about this) I like the fact not that he’s English, AND he’s good enough to be in England’s competition squad. That is a good direction. Too many of our English players fail to trouble the selectors. Bukayo must feel lonely.
Ornstein saying a Saliba loan move to Marseille is in the works, though not done yet. Still in AFC’s long term plans.
I’m with Claude on this. Either play him or sell him. Maybe the kid who grew up an Arsenal fan is hoping he can outlast Arteta.
Greg would say it’s amateur remote psychology, and he’s right. But so what? I really think this club is run on petty, personal agendas, which may be expected, but we’re wasting money which the club has routinely signalled it can’t afford, such as by unceremoniously sacking the club mascot who served us for 27 years. You can’t tell me this isn’t about a power grab and all who don’t show sufficient loyalty will be shoved or hounded out.
Doc is right too. I don’t trust Arteta, nor Edu. And once intentions are doubted, I guess there’s no point debating the nuances of every decision.
I set my stall out on Raul Sanllehi early. I think we’re playing a similar game now, just with the armour of Edu and Arteta’s playing careers at the club, and it seems, with the Kroenkes finally being backed into allowing more spend (and wastage)
All that said, I’m surprised by how keen I am to see the season start. It ought to be make or break, and either I’ll happily be proven wrong on the footballing front, or, we can hopefully, start to move back towards some of our values, the latter actually being more important to me.
10 days away from the first pre-season game.
Oh, and from the looks of the signings like Tavares who seems more suited to a wingback role, and Ben White (who is also linked with Everton now) I had the thought that our primary plan is to go with 3 CBs.
I don’t know what is going on with Saliba and he may well be sent on loan this season but he is only 20 years old which is really young for a CB. You don’t see many regular starters at this age. Chambers has been hanging around for years going on loans etc but now he has a chance to be a regular starter next year at RB. You don’t just sell a 20 year old CB who potentially has upside if you have other options.
There were plenty of young players Arsene sent on loan for several years so if that is the indication of a petty agenda then we have been guilty for many years. Joel Campbell and Wellington Silva were just a couple. With regard to Arsene being a good guy with the Giroud sale. We saw with RVP to ManU that players who are under contract don’t have to go anywhere they don’t want and the players have the ultimate control where they go. The other problem was Giroud’s wage. I am sure Giroud is like all of us and I doubt he would have been willing to take a pay cut. Not many of the less wealthy teams would have wanted to pay a transfer fee and Arsenal level wage for a 30 year old CF who had already mostly stopped scoring. You don’t usually want to keep a player around on a high wage who does not wants to go and whose production has dropped off significantly. I doubt Arsene’s motivations were altruistic because he probably had no other reasonable options then selling him to Chelsea.
“With regard to Arsene being a good guy with the Giroud sale. We saw with RVP to ManU that players who are under contract don’t have to go anywhere they don’t want and the players have the ultimate control where they go. The other problem was Giroud’s wage.”
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True that you cant make a player go where he doesnt want to, but that’s not the position that Arsenal were in with regard to Giroud. Also, there were significant differences between Giroud’s and RVP’s situations.
RVP in the summer had a year left. Giroud (along with Kosc and Coq) signed a 👉🏽long-term 👈🏽extension at Arsenal in January 2017, a year before he moved to Chelsea. OG had significantly more contract time remaining so the club wasnt under any pressure to sell in Jan ’18.
The other big difference is dynamics. Giroud needed to move that January to keep his France place alive. Laca had taken his starter’s place, and Aubameyang was about to arrive, which would further limit his minutes.
We did not have ‘contract length remaining’ pressure to sell Giroud. Under those circumstances, a more ruthless manager might have exercised his leverage, and narrowed his options. Chelsea had a striker productivity problem (Morata wasnt working out so well), and we helped them by selling them a still-good centre forward. One who contributed significantly to our defeat in the Europa League final.
This is a key detail that you miss.
RVP we had to sell, or see him leave for nothing in a year. Giroud we didn’t, because he was not in that position. RVP summer/enforced; Giroud mid-season/unenforced. See the differences?
There’s a fair bit that you conjectured, misunderstood or seemed to have guessed at here.