Odegaard

45 comments

1. In complete agreement, Arsenal should never be a place other teams use to develop their players.

   1. Very few are going to agree with us on this.

      Part of the problem is that fans like to see good football so of course Odegaard excites. But they also know that this is inherently something only small club do (imagine Man U taking a Real Madrid player on loan). So they go through mental hoops to justify the deal; “but if it gets us 4th place!”

      It’s always weird to me how fans demand loyalty from the players and give almost no loyalty back (unless the player stays with the team or wins a treble or something super special). I’m not unique here, I’ve been guilty of this myself and frankly probably have no moral high ground to stand on. But it’s irking me these last few years because it’s been really obvious that we are putting immediate gain over long-term progress.

      1. While I agree in principle, our academy attackers aren’t quite ready. Odegaard wouldn’t be blocking Nketiah and Balogun who are both strikers. Azeez is a deeper midfielder and is still very raw. Nelson has had chances and not impressed. Willock could yet make it…he reminds me of a young Ramsey. We will likely buy in the summer anyway. Odegaard now makes sense as a gap filler, especially if we want to attract young talented prospects. I don’t think anyone takes over from Saka and ESR right away. They need some rotation, especially if Saka is also our second choice left back.
         But who knows, he might be another Denis Suarez and we will be a joke.

         1. At least if reports are true he is gonna cost us less than Suarez did. But I think unlike Suarez, Odegaard can actually bring some fun to our football.

      2. That’s right, Tim, this is just what a mid-table Europa club would do!

         Oh…

      3. I would find it problematic if Odegaard takes Saka’s or ESR’s minutes. I hope Arteta is wise enough not to choose loanee over our academy products on long terms contracts. If anything I think Odegaard should take Pepe’s or Willian’s minutes.

   2. I think that’s a bit simplistic. Loan deals can be mutual beneficial and also mutually non-beneficial when it comes to the two clubs involved (and the player). Do you really think Arsenal’s motivation here is to develop Odegaard for Real Madrid? Or is it, perhaps, because a short-term option on a highly talented player suits us at this point in time, and that Real Madrid also see this as a good way for their player to develop?

      Perhaps (?) what stings is that moves like this (and Ceballos’) basically indicate that Real Madrid are a much bigger club than Arsenal, but welcome to reality!

      1. It might be that we’re doing Real a solid and in exchange they will repay us? There’s word of a clear-out at Real so they can make space for Mbappe this summer – if that’s the case, could we be positioning ourselves to scoop someone off their roster? (I pray it’s not Ceballos)

   3. Wenger’s Arsenal might’ve been seen as a good place to send players for development, but Arteta’s?
      On what evidence?

      1. Has Danny Ceballos’ game improved during his Arsenal spell?
         I couldn’t tell.

         1. At the end of last season I saw improvement. He was sat for a while, Arteta said he wasn’t training hard enough, he came in and did well.

            What I don’t like about Ceballos is he’s basically Guendouzi without the hair – not a great athlete, no speed, dwells on the ball and a poor defender. I hope to God we’re not going to sign him permanently this summer.

2. OK, we’ve been back on forth on Twitter about this, so you know I like this move – 3 reasons:

   • He apparently can operate as a RW or AM. So I suspect he will rotate with Saka and Smith Rowe in those positions – assuming he’s playing in the form he had at Sociedad.
   • That gives both young rising stars a chance to rest and not be overplayed. This is really critical to protect these assets.
   • His patellar tendinitis has to be managed, so he won’t be able to play every game even if he wants to. So we shouldn’t have drama about playing time for anyone.
   • The loan has little financial downside. If he’s a bust, we haven’t lost much and we still get another 10 in the summer.

   Yes, there’s some short term thinking here but I also think there’s some ambition. The club expect to be playing in multiple competitions this season, and we want to upgrade on the disappointing performances of Willian and Pepe. If he’s better than those two, this is a win.

   There’s a chance (not a great one) the team kick on from here and we get back into EL for next year, or make another strong cup run. It’s a crazy tight table. We are 7 points off fourth. Loaning him is saying we are going for it, not just content to get the young guys some development minutes. I like that.

3. Considering what you say about the minutes played in Madrid by this guy, I wonder if there would be a benefit in some kind of system where if a team pays big money for a young player and doesn’t play them in enough league games over, say, 2 or 3 years then the player automatically becomes a free agent again.

   Big teams might be less inclined to shell out massive money on young players they’ve no intention of playing regularly because they don’t really need them and smaller teams who WOULD play those players might have more of a chance of securing quality players that they actually need and would play.

   I’m just trying to think of something that would discourage big teams like Madrid, Chelsea, City etc from buying up so much of the young talent who they’ve no intention of playing and just sending them out on loans for years while depriving other teams of players they actually need.

   Doesn’t seem right that a player this good is just constantly on loan.

4. Tim,

   Agree with the sentiment about loaning in players but disagree from a practicality POV.

   Reasons to be pragmatic:
   – Qualifying for Europe is a long shot – we need the revenue from European competitions
   – Even though Ozil is gone I guarantee the wage bill won’t see the benefit until June. Plus we loaded it big time last Summer with the Auba extension and brought in Willian and Thomas. At some point I’d anticipate a big reset is coming
   – This season we have very little matchday revenue. There are ticket holders who are honouring their commitment so it’s difficult to say how much it has fallen, but no doubt club revenue is bollixed this year.
   – There’s a large element of uncertainty match day attendances will return to normal next season. I wouldn’t bet on business as usual until Spring 2022 earliest.

   Rory Smith’s piece in the NYT today recalls the tale of when Dick Law went to RM to sign Benzema or di Maria. When he got there they actually wanted to sell us Ozil (who didn’t want to leave). We’ve always been small fry.

5. I’m in favor of this move, and I don’t think it will “kill” Smith Rowe. We simply can’t ask Smith Rowe to be our only creative midfielder for the rest of the season. We’ll wear him out like we did with Wilshere in his break-out season. Odegaard is further along in his development, but also struggles with injuries, so I don’t think we should envision Smith Rowe as being cast aside. We should definitely think of this as ESR’s ‘break-out’ season while also realizing he’s 20, will (and needs to have the space to) develop more, and has a long and bright future with us, long after Odegaard goes back to Madrid at the end of this season.

   I’ve long been of the opinion that a short-term loan option for attacking / creative mid this January is the right move, so that we can reassess our options in the summer for something long-term, perhaps for an older player who could push Smith Rowe and vice versa. I think that’d be healthy, especially for all the football we have to play each season.

   Let me say I’m also delighted with the loan signing of Mat Ryan, and hopefully we can get a back-up for Tierney as well. If we did all that plus Odegaard, I think this would be a very successful window.

   Anyway, let’s see what happens. We don’t know how Arteta will use Odegaard, nor how he’ll use ESR if or when Odegaard arrives (together? alternating?). All I know is that Saka and ESR can’t be expected to play every game this season for reasons of fatigue and injury. The early Jan fixture list has been relatively kind to us. Sterner challenges await, and once the Europa League starts up again, we’ll be playing twice a week again.

   1. This is pretty much how I feel. We need back up for ESR. Period. The other current options(Willian, Nelson, Willock, Laca) have all been tried to varying degrees and none have shown they are to the needed level.
      And given we don’t have a lot of money to spend, and since it’s the January transfer window, options are more limited, we don’t have a lot of choices. Either someone younger, perhaps on a loan like Odegaard(which does have some risk relative to competing with ESR) or a veteran(say the equivalent of Milner at Liverpool). The veteran option would pose less risk to ESR, but might cost more, and maybe have even less likelihood of working(i.e. another Willian or Lichsteiner).
      On the whole seems like Odegaard would be a decent option given the constraints. Let’s actually get back to a high level of success before we start worrying about where players are coming from.

      As far as the table goes…this is a crazy year. Pool looking like they really miss VVD and are burned out. Chelsea are arguably in worse shape than us given higher expectations. City was looking fairly good, but just lost DeBruyne for an extended spell, and Aguero is out with COVID. Leicester has been looking solid, but just lost Vardy for a spell. Could Utd really win it? I’d a have put pretty long odds on that 2 months ago. Could Everton end up top 4?

      1. OK, but now Willian and Pepe are further down the pecking order? If Saka is hurt or tired – will Odegaard play instead of Willian or Pepe?

         My point is there’s depth, and then depth that’s a waste of resources and actually can hurt player morale when guys in the locker room aren’t seeing the field. If we’re bringing in Odegaard I hope we’re also moving out Reiss-Nelson and either Pepe or Willian too.

         1. Nelson

         2. It’s would be great if we could move Willian or Pepe without too much of a loss, but I’m not holding my breath. Pepe in particular should still be seen as a decent option to Saka. Less so Willian. And I don’t think either of them is an option for ESR.
            Reiss is tougher. I’d like to see him make it, but he hasn’t shown enough in the chances he’s had so far. Maybe another half season on loan in the Championship? He should at least have decent sale value.

   2. Don’t know much about Odegaard. From what I’ve seen he looks a bit like a left footed Rosicky. A bit like Tomas, might it be possible to play him in a deeper position? The assumption so far seems to be that he’s here to cover for/replace ESR. He must be a better bet than Danny Onions.

6. I don’t really understand this.

   The player wanted to go back to Sociedad but Sociedad are an actual threat to Real in the standings, so that was vetoed.

   Real wants him to get minutes. So they send him to Arsenal where he has to compete now with ESR, Saka, Willian, Pepe and Reiss-Nelson for minutes? Unless… has Arsenal provided promises about playing time?

   And – he’s Ozil-esque. That’s why Zidane wasn’t playing him. He’s not a player who goes hare-ing around after the ball and pressing opponents. So, offensive talents aside, Arteta has been moving away from playing players who can’t help defensively (Pepe, Ozil, etc.).

   And finally – we’re never going to buy him at the end of the loan spell.

   This doesn’t make any sense to me unless the brain trust is just assuming ESR and Saka are bound to burn out or get injured.

   1. Odegaard may not play wide, so I’m not sure he’s competing with Willian, Pepe, and Nelson. Even if he was, I imagine Odegaard would be ahead of them in the pecking order. Pepe and (especially) Willian have been massive disappointments, and Nelson is really limited (and should really go on loan or be sold this summer).

      Whatever the case, we don’t know what assurances Arteta has given, but it’s probably more than the three starts (I think?) that Madrid have given Odegaard so far this season!

      1. I agree with Bun here Jack. MO isn’t going to play if he’s not up to the level, unless we’re moribund and out of all competitions early. Given this table, we have a chance to make EL. With Covid and everything else, teams can tumble fast. Top 4 is a serious longshot, but who knows?

         Not sure i agree about him not being defensive. Apparently, he’s a very strong presser in the final third – not as great tracking back. That might be what Arteta envisions as the role. As I say above, he’s an insurance policy with upside. If he’s better than Pepe and Willian (and his quick passing seems like a much better fit for Saka and ESR) he could help us and help us preserve our 2 Hale End up and comers.

         I think we need to get past the “we shouldn’t develop players for big clubs.” Per Bun and others, we’re a midtable club. That’s exactly what we should be doing if it helps us.

   2. Oof, you still think Willian and Pepe will actually ‘compete’ with Odegaard? They were both utter cr*p today, as they have been all season.

      Sorry, I’ve completely lost my patience with those two. Willian is a serious liability and should never play for Arsenal again.

7. At the end of the 18/19 season, I was sure that Emery would be sacked and we would bring in a new coach. All of this came bout because I thought we had thoughtful people running the club who didn’t ignore patterns and could see how things would unravel for Emery.

   At that point, I was thinking about replacements for some of our key players who might leave. Martin Odegaard had just had a great season at Vitesse and from the highlights and clips that I saw online, he looked a clear replacement for Mesut. but things didn’t turn out the way I thought and Emery stayed and doubled down on his preferred defensive midfielder at #10 tactic, while Martin Odegaard went to Sociedad.

   The benefit of his move to Sociedad was that I could follow the player more regularly and watch him all game. After watching him for the whole season, I didn’t and still don’t see these Ozil comparisons other than his body language, starting position and that he is left footed.

   Here is a view that I hold and maybe I am the only one who thinks this way, but in terms of technical ability (control, dribbling, passing and shooting), Rosciky, Santi and Wilshere were ahead of/better than Ozil or just more gifted footballers talent-wise.

   I think that Ozil is basically perfect at the basics of football (like Zidane), but Ozil’s qualities lie in his decision making, finding pockets space, speed of thought, vision and how creatively he utilizes the technical ability he has, which is still high by the way. It might also explain why there are so many compilations of the guy online for every season with so much footage, his basic skillset is how he makes the basics of football look easy. He might just be the most watchable, but when it comes to actual attributes and not creativity (which is a football IQ thing), I don’t see where he is ahead of these guys.

   This is where Martin Odegaard comes in for me. He dribbles far more, like Sanchez levels of dribbling. He enjoys having the ball at his feet, but unlike Ozil, he doesn’t have a pause, he dribbles to be free. He is also more of a goal threat because Ozil’s mindset is probably one of the most unique out there in that he played to set up his teammates at any cost. Odegaard is also at his best drifting in from wide right or in the right half space. He does have a bit of ability at receiving on the half turn in between he lines, but its not a strength of his. He is also not a prolific breaker of deep defences with passing type of guy, soooooo…..

   All in all, I love the player. But I would be surprised if he dislodged Emile from the #10. what we got is a young and talented attacking player who is more a combination of some of Wilshere, Rosicky and Santi’s attacking and final third attributes. more of a Bernado Silva than a replacement for Emile who is a better #10.

   He is a young talent that should be taken on board as a permanent and never as a loan. Loaning young players is a waste in my view as they are basically there to learn, but if you got an Isco or Luis Alberto, then I would understand. Loans at these times of the year and in the position we are in should focus on players that have experienced situations of hardships and have shown a capability of playing towards achieving what we are looking to achieve. loans for young players are development deals.

   1. Man, your analyses are awesome.

      And your distillation of difference between Odegaard and Emile was intriguing. I don’t know much about Odegaard, but Emile is movement, quick thought, drifting, flitting into space, give and go. Sometimes his game is reminiscent of Rosicky’s, sometimes Mesut’s. Odegaard sounds like a ball-ferryer and a line-breaker, a completely different kind of player, and one we need. Odegaard stays on the ball; Emile gets rid of it and moves. Seeing them operate together would be something.

      That’d mean we have an unsustainable glut of RWs. Reiss, Pepe, Willian and Saka have all played there. I agree with Jack… that’s two too many.

      To me the ones to make way would be Reiss and Willian. But does the coach have it in him to get rid of his big signing after one season? And who except a China club would take him on his wages for 2 years? I’m keeping Pepe, whose 17 goal involvements last year were more than Lacazette’s.

      1. And who except a China club would take him on his wages for 2 years?

         I hear Willian is fond of Dubai…

   2. good talk. i watched a bit of odegaard; certainly enough to know that he’s special. your description of him is not inaccurate. however, i take exception with your declaration that wilshere and rosicky were more talented than mesut ozil. you can’t be serious. comparing ozil to wilshere is like comparing a mercedes-benz to a subaru. if you said they were more exciting to watch dribble, maybe i’d agree but that’s about it.

      1. I know it sounds weird and unbelievable, but my point isn’t that they are better or did more. It has to do with basic skills, which Mesut is top level too.

         My point is that all three are better or equal to Mesut in shooting. All three are better or equal to Mesut in dribbling. All three have the ability to play any pass that Mesut can play. All three can control the ball better or equally as good as Mesut. But Mesut was just better in knowing when and where to use his high level of talent.

         Its a similar situation to how Ricardo Quaresma was and still is more talented than Cristiano. But Ronaldo has been able to utilize his skillset differently, but better. Rosicky, Santi and Wilshere are capable of things that Mesut cant technically pull off, but Mesut is has such a high level of football intelligence that he is able to pull off stuff that those three cant even think of doing.

         So your car comparison is apt in this instance, but Ozil would be the Subaru imprenza, driven by prime Michael Schumacher. Wilshere would be the the Mercedes-Benz, but driven by, no offense, Fernando Alonso. We know which is the better car, but how its driven will dictate how well it does. The mind is the driver of your capabilities and for me, Mesut is the most tactically intelligent player I have ever known.

8. Really hope Ode can stay healthy, as I have read about his knee and the patella tendonitis he has, which the team doc says is chronic and not going to get better.

   AFC just better make sure he can pass the physical, seriously, as I have no faith in them to do their due diligence, this goes back the the Suarez loan and further back to Kallstrom days.

9. i believe the reason arsenal are trying to sign odegaard on loan is because, with mesut gone, emile is the only #10. willian was supposed to carry that torch but he can’t; someone got the decision to bring him to arsenal very wrong and they’re stuck paying his wages for 3 years.

   as for loaning players, i’m guessing arsenal sees it as a way to spend less. in reality, it’s not. this is a very american way to do business. managers are brought in to find ways to make more and spend less for the owners/share holders. the way they do this is cutting corners but you simply can’t do that in football. you’ve got to pay for quality. arsenal have not only brought in quite a few loans since wenger left, they’ve done things like fire all of their recruiters and are relying on agents…in an effort to save a dollar today. it’s disgraceful but that’s how many are taught to manage…and how josh kronke and his merry men are getting after it.

10. After 3 minutes of watching Youtube videos, I can confidently say I am Very impressed by his close control and acceleration. Should be a clear upgrade on Willian. I also get vague Andriy Arshavin vibes, in a good way.

    Arsenal signed the backup GK I thought they should! Great! Still time for that alternate specialist LB. Once again, the need was on display today in the absence of Tierney.

11. Tough loss today but I’m not too discouraged. Hasenhuttl played his clear best XI, whereas we clearly didn’t, and they competed ferociously for 90 minutes, whereas we also clearly didn’t. Arsenal were the worse team until Partey and Saka came on, but after that it was a different game. I thought Mikel got a bit too cute with his tactics late on what with bringing Lacazette on to play next to Nketiah and sliding Bukayo to LB. I know it was a fluent system and he could get forward but I thought it killed the fluency we had built during that phase of the match.

    Shout out to Pepe who looked frisky in this one and set up Nketiah for a few good chances. Poor Eddie, he worked really hard but just doesn’t seem to have it at this level. He’s too small to win duels, not superlatively quick and not technically excellent, cannot create his own shot and doesn’t really hit the target often enough when he does get chances. Would be a great 2nd tier striker and has value that we should cash in on.

    Gabriel looks far from the player he was before he got COVID, but it’s encouraging to see him back out there getting match sharpness back.

    1. Agree about Eddie. Balogun scored a hatrick for the U23s last night #wasted

       1. Eddie won’t make it at Arsenal. Not in a million years. He just hasn’t got a strong enough all round game.
          Meanwhile, several clubs here and in Europe are sniffing round Balogun, for the simple reason that he has lots more about him. Sell Eddie and make Balogun an offer he can’t refuse.
          There’s a young lad in the year below called Kido Taylor-Hart. A ridiculous name, but very, very talented.
          Persevere with Eddie for much longer and we will lose him as well.

    2. Spot on about Eddie. I’ve been saying it for a while now. I haven’t ever seen anything in his play to suggest he’s got the quality to play in the Premier League. Fair enough, we gave him the chances, but Arteta must be thinking about selling him, despite the PR stuff he says about him.

    3. I was pretty disappointed to be honest. We were well beaten by Southampton. It only showed to me that when a few key players are not on the pitch, it all starts to go horribly wrong.

       Tierney: When he’s not playing, our left hand side, which should be our strongest suit, becomes virtually useless. Playing Cedric there was a big mistake, which Arteta realised in the 2nd half, to be fair. Anyone slotting into that position must have a left foot. Simple as that. Martinelli got almost zero service.

       Smith-Rowe: When he doesn’t play, our movement off the ball becomes almost non-existent. We degenerate into playing musical statues again. Quite why that happens is a bit of a mystery, but it does. Our play was stodgy and unimaginative. I never thought for one second we would score. It’s a sad indictment that we should be that dependent on a young kid, who has only just come into the side.

       Good to see Gabriel back. I admire his strength and whole heartedness, but wish he would develop some composure. He’s far too impulsive, which is a bad trait for a defender. I’m not sure as to whether Mari is in fact a better bet. We tend to play well with him in the side. He makes Holding look good.

12. I randomly caught one of Odegaards real sociedad matches. Not sure why I was watching sociedad unless it was against real madrid or barca. The one takeaway I got from about 30 mins watching was OMG!!. I havent seen him since, and I agree whole heartedly with not developing real madrid players at the expense of our own, however he looked more like a CM in the game I saw (so not threatening our young attackers outright), real socied dad won, he was everywhere, maybe he was up for a big game or trying to prove a point, buts he was all running tackling and passing. Hes would in one fell swoop replacr and upgrade craballos, xhaka and elneny ozil and guendouzi…..and thats just talking about outright physical output, mobility and willingness to tackle lol. in terms of vision, touch, dribbling, passing, audcity and execution only Ozil is comparable. I know half an hour of a random match isnt enough to make a long term decision on but an individual performance hasn’t left that deep an impression on me since….cazorla vs man city a few years back. This kid is de bruyne with fast twitch muscle fibres, and if he comes ill willinly let go all of the disappoinment guendouzi never worked out and ozil never played with partey. Im sure he’d go in midfield (but then im one of those guys who isn’t sure why maitland-niles doesn’t go in midfield)

    1. I think AMN doesn’t go in midfield because he doesn’t see the pitch well and doesn’t have the technical abilities such as a weak foot or the ability to evade tackles wxclet by charging blindly forward. He could play a role like the one Diallo played for Southampton today, a hyper-athletic disruptive presence, and did that well in our FA cup matches. Offensively though he’s close to nil. He belongs in a team that doesn’t want the ball and that’s not Arsenal, not anymore, I hope. But that is plenty of teams in England and elsewhere. I could see a newly promoted team throwing some money at him to add quickness and physical presence in a player who can be deployed in that pressing disruptive role or as a lockdown 1 v 1 against wingers pretty much anywhere. That has value for Arsena too but not nearly as much. We need two way players. Similar to Eddie, I think the time has come to cash in.

    2. I made this very point higher up on this thread. From what I have seen of him, Odegaards looks like a more than capable midfielder to play alongside Partey. When you consider players like Cazorla, Wilshere and Rosicky all started off life as “number 10s” and latterly moved back into midfield, albeit with varying amounts of success, then you do have to wonder what plans Arteta might have for him. Personally, I would be as pleased as Punch to see more creativity in our midfield. We will obviously see how that pans out. Can we send Danny Onions back the other way in exchange? Probably not.

       1. Danny Onions 🤣

13. tim, lately i’ve been getting a frequent notification that this site is using “excessive energy” and am often recommended to leave this page. sometimes, the cursor freezes up and i can’t type at all. today, i was writing a post and the page just reloaded, deleting my post. is this a possible problem on my end or could it be something in the design on your end?

    disclaimer: i have a 10-year old mac but this is the only website where i experience this condition.

    1. I’m getting the same thing since the comment system was changed.

14. Not too fussed about losing today the FA cup is our lowest priority. But there are two buts:

    – We rested players with a view to Tuesday. That now becomes a must-win game.
    – Last season we qualified for Europe via the FA cup so that’s one avenue closed.

    Saw some stats this week across Arteta’s first 38 league games – 59 points (1.55 PPG), equating to 9th place. At the halfway point this season we’re at 27 points (1.42 PPG). Considering Leicester, Spuds and ManUre are still in the EL, that route looks very difficult. So a big uptick in the second half of the season is required if we’re to make progress.

15. During the last 4 games we have scored only 5 goals and 2 of those came in extra time in the first game against Newcastle. Without that extra time we would have been shut out in 3 of the last 4 and during those games which were all against lower 1/3 of the table teams. During those last 4 games Auba has scored 60% of our goals. Its no surprise that we did not score with Auba not available. The good thing is our defense was strong again and that will keep us competitive in most games.

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