UNAI OUT

163 comments

1. Like I said on the last thread the fact he got out couched by a guy barely a week in charge of an inferior club has to raise some serious questions about his coaching abilities
   I would take Arsenal missing out on top four if it meant Emery not getting his third season over making top four and him staying on.

   1. I wouldn’t even want to make CL with Unai in charge, Arsenal would get massacred worse than before.

2. Ditto that….he cannot make great players play..he is being out coached by even lesser teams due to a lack of a viable system. He then marginalizes great player

3. Unai, not Moby, gave us our daily dose of dick today.

4. Unai, not Moby, gave us our daily dose of Di*ck today.

   1. This comment wins the day.

5. I’ve been on the side of giving UE time before making a judgment, but I am starting to change my mind. That 2nd half was an absolute embarrassment. He has plenty of talent at his disposal. This match should have been a relatively easy day at the office, especially going up 2-0. There is no discernible plan with Emery. We look disjointed each week for a considerable stretch. I was ok with giving him till Christmas. Now maybe less so. Guess I should have known better than to doubt your analysis Tim.

   1. The captain stating to the press that the team were scared?
      There’s no 180° pivot from this.

      Cannot with confidence, tally-up the collective fortitude required of this team– to pull back from impending disaster. There’s no team-DNA to rely upon.

      What else is necessary– to acknowledge the inevitable?
      Emery has lost his team.

6. Tick – Tock…

7. I am a bit disappointed in those that look to the back 4, the midfield or even the individual center backs, and then come to the conclusion that these players aren’t good enough.

   I have had issues with Arsenal’s defending as a unit since the days of Wenger, but during those times, the individual mistakes could be attributed to the players because there was a defensive system in place. Currently, and basically since last season, the team hasn’t had a defensive identity. Defending is a team thing. The entire side should know how to defend , consisyently, in a particular way. It should show from the forwards and all the way back to the keeper, just what we are trying to do.

   Since last season, I have noticed that our entire side does not know what the first phase of defending should be, what reactions are called for when we lose the ball in different areas of the pitch and designated areas of cover for each individual player. There isn’t any consistent structure in the side defensively because we change formations every game. There isn’t any responsibility to cover for teammates, as shown by nobody dropping whenever Guendouzi pushes forward.

   Solid defence is actually easier to coach than an fluid attack, but it still needs a lot of work and probably knowledge that Unai just doesn’t have. I constantly see the team’s training videos and pictures, not once have I seen a defensive drill for a unit. I have seen how they coach individual players the correct body shape to mark your man, 1v1 marking and then a lot of transition situations. The sessions look as tedious as the games, with no fluidity.

   There were times last season where I wondered how Holding could play so well in a game where the opposition could get past our team, time and time again. It’s because we have players playing individual defence in a team set-up. Players can play well and the team still concede. That is a flaw of a system, or in this case, a lack of one.

   So for me, I still have faith that this side, quality wise, is on par with the top 2 sides. Our system, tactics, coaching, approach and philosophy are what is holding us back. Players like Auba, Ozil, Laca, Pepe and Ceballos, deserve a tactical plartform that doesn’t belittle their strengths and somehow exposes their weaknesses. There are so many ways to play football and what we have played for the past year just isn’t what we are supposed to be and isn’t getting the most out of the best attack we have had in a long while.

   Valencia just fired Marcelino for no reason, and he has been a very astute tactician. Bringing Valencia out of the hellhole that Neville and co, dug them into. His sides play very intense pressing football, but are also capable of staying very organised. He is Spanish, so maybe Raul is looking at him. I hoped we would have taken Lopetegui in the summer, but Monchi beat us to that one, and now they are flying high.

   Anyways, third is still ours for the taking.

   1. 5th is the best we can hope for under this garbage coach.

   2. I thought of Marcelino, first as Wenger’s replacement. I liked what he’d done at Valencia, but thought it was maybe too early. But two years in a row he’s done excellently. I would take him, despite my apprehension (or a random thought) that Spanish coaches don’t travel well.

      But Marcelino was apparently sacked for resisting attempts to sign Jorge Mendes players. This new Arsenal will not sign him.

      1. I also thought about Ralf Rangick last year, but he was tied up and I couldn’t see him leaving Liepzig. He is available right now, and would make a great appointment to give us an identity and set the side up for someone like Allegri, Marcelino and Ten Hagg, in the same way that Jupp Heynkes set things up for Guardiola at Bayern.

         Unfortunately, Rangnick has being given a massive job where he will be overseeing all red bull clubs. It now seems to be how I predicted in that last season not being used to build the foundation for a style of play, we would have wasted an entire year. Especially if we didn’t win a trophy.

         We became a team suited for cup football under Arsene, but now, we ARE team that approaches every game like a cup game, as a small club.

         There aren’t a lack of coaches in European football who could elevate Arsenal to competing. Arsene was let go because he wasn’t getting the best out of the squad at his disposal, which was failing to reach Champions League, but now, for some reason, people seem to be content with worse than Arsene’s worst.

         We have talent in our ranks, the abilities of the players can’t be questioned and can be put up to those of any top sides on the planet. The players not playing to their potential, does not mean they are somehow worse than the rest. The rest just have systems where their talents can shine more.

         Give me Marcelino any day. Even though he plays a 442.

      2. I thought Marcelino was fired for publicly bitching about Valencia selling players like Rodrigo that he wanted the club to try and retain.

         Marcelino is a very realistic replacement because we have a Spaniard and a Brazilian in charge of the club now. There’s no way we’re bringing in a German or French coach and there’d be a resistance to bringing in a Brit too (although I am coming around to the idea that Eddie Howe should be given a shot at a big job).

         1. I’m not sold on Eddie Howe.

            1. Eddie Howe is not able to organize the defense. He’s like Owen Coyle back in the day- British, allows some passing, so sounds good. Hype of a very English kind.

8. This is the game that broke the camel’s back for me, so to speak. It’s been brewing, but last season he had an excuse: the team had holes. This season there are none (or much fewer, at least). We have the 2nd or 3rd best front line in the league. We have enough midfielders to do something good there. Our back line, on paper, is experienced and talented. And yet we get this performance. Against WATFORD.

   I saw a stat on Twitter that said we’ve conceded 14 more shots in the first 5 games than that famous 07/08 Derby team. No mean feat.

   The only reason to keep Emery on any longer is to finalize the contract of his successor. No, not Freddie – we’re not Chelsea or United. But Allegri is available. It would be a shock to the system, but he’s a motivator, and tactically flexible. Oh, and he builds good defenses. If he can’t figure it out by the end of the season then nobody will.

   1. Agree with everything you say but will Stan and co spend the kind of money needed to compensate Emery and then pay huge wages to Allegri? I doubt it. They will go for someone lower profile which may not be a bad thing. We need common sense organisation and more mental and physical toughness. There are managers who make teams ‘greater than the sum of their parts’. This team is the opposite at the moment. We have some wonderful players who are woefully underperforming and it’s not necessarily their fault.

      1. Yeah, I don’t know. We’ve been pleasantly surprised with the money spent this summer, but the managerial merry-go-round is a different thing. I agree with your point, of course – we need a manager who makes this team greater than the sum of their parts. Like if the parts are an 80, we need a manager who gives us 85, not 75. Allegri is a big name, but surely there are others.

         How’s Tuchel doing at PSG?

9. For the last year, I’ve been thinking that you can’t judge UE for the quality of the football until he gets that players he wants or needs. Now I’ve just watched one of the best Arsenal teams for a while in terms of individual player quality for a while get outclassed by Watford. The whole is much less than the sum of its parts (sorry for truism but the truism is truistically true in this case) and that’s the fault of the coach. As of today, I am also UE out. Jose is around the corner.

   1. If we sign Jose then Km boycotting this club until he is fired, and I hope others do the same. Jose has trashed the club at every opportunity and bullied Wenger in the most disgusting ways. He will never be welcome.

      Plus he’s done, past it, over. No top club should give him a job again.

      I also half suspect he’d want the Arsenal job just to bury the club. He’s petty like that.

      1. And yet, I haven’t heard any other constructive options from people who want Emery gone right now. Let’s hear those options, because in the discussion of Emery so far, it’s been conveniently easy to judge in hindsight and just posit the vacuum as the best alternative. Who should take over, and why? What coach do you have in mind who would get the best out this particular team, tactically and mentally, given injuries, adaptations, youth, etc.? Genuine question, and don’t hide behind the “that’s for JK to decide!” argument. The “literally anybody” argument is similarly moribund. We’re here as fans discussing who best to coach this squad, and me and a few others have been ridiculed for suggesting that Emery needs more time. So, let’s hear from you.

         1. Marcelino, Setien, Vieira.

            I actually think Vieira would be possible at some point simply because of how Edu’s eyes lit up while talking about him as someone he’s still in constant touch with. Not much of a reasoning, I know.

            But honestly, I’d give it to Freddie for this season. It would 100% be an improvement in terms of performance at least.

            1. Based on nothing. Please explain to all of us what Ljungberg’s tactics are? Also, since you care so much, I’d be super intrigued to hear your take on how Vieira sets up his teams? Tactically, what are your points here? So you’d give it to Freddie 100%. Cool. Lol. Are you serious?

            2. Yes I’m serious. What this team needs is an identity. Not this chameleon nonsense. Any decent coach would provide that. After that it’s about having the squad’s respect. Freddie would, at least as a caretaker manager until next season.

               I already said what my reasoning about Vieira was. I haven’t seen his teams play, and I wasn’t big on him before.

               You seem to want to fight about everything someone else says. I guess I just shouldn’t engage.

            3. You shouldn’t engage if you promise something (Ljungberg) but have no clue how to describe or justify it. Cheers.

         2. My objection to Jose is beyond him as a coach, but as a person. A vacuum legit would be better.

            But anyway: Allegri. Marcelino (based on recent performance). Slim pickings at the moment I admit, but there may be options towards the end of the season.

            Not interested in Freddie or Vieira – those are populist choices based on very little. It’s akin to hiring OGS or Lampard, but with even less real experience.

         3. NES or Biesla, there’s two names for you.

         4. I genuinely did not think we would ever go back to the angst of the late-Wenger era, but there’s a clear pattern here.

            That pattern is that some fans were and are willing to put up with the most concentrated bilge, as long as it is/was in the name of the ‘Arsenal way’.

            If someone tries anything different and fails, it’s not enough to say ‘well that sucked, and if it sucks for a couple more months, he’s going to be gone’. No – it’s GET. HIM. OUT. THE. CLUB. How much ever it’s presented as an in-the-moment response, it’s puerile.

            It’s the result of ten years of being told that we’re the football gods’ special children, the dreamers, the true connoisseurs of football-as-art. So if we must fail, we must fail *spectacularly* mon cherie, our goalkeeper dispossessed while attempting a desperately romantic back-heel in the opposition penalty box, and who cares really that we were down 18-0 at the time. Even Wenger got sick of it, though he continued bankrupting his reputation in the attempt to put caviar on the table daily.

            If there was any objectivity, Emery’s failing should be clear. It is not WHAT. IS. OUR. IDENTITY. It’s the bizarrely ideological aspects of his decision-making – Xhaka, the short goalie passes, the preference for risk-taking centre backs. Those aspects of our IDENTITY are quite firmly entrenched (and well before Emery, in case you were born yesterday). Fat lot of good that identity has done us.

            Listen, the flip side of calling for pragmatism is the acceptance that it’s a results business. And Emery is no golden child with any captive constituency within the club. So, as it stands, he’s on the thinnest possible ice, odds on to be on his way by December.

            We could just take that for what it is, and maybe get our hopes up for a better successor in due time. Or we can throw our toys out the pram and un-tether ourselves so spectacularly from reality that we believe Freddie Ljungberg, lord save him, can do better than a manager with, you know, actual experience (and actual trophies).

            Just sit down, all of you who keep bringing his (and Vieira’s) name up. If we’re going to become some jobs-for-the-lads outfit, let it be done the good old-fashioned way – a little thigh-grabbing and back-slapping between the suits. Please don’t play We Shall Overcome at the coronation, and expect us to believe it’s a revolution.

10. Maybe. I’m still in the “five games in? really?” category.

    1. I think it’s more that a lot of us see it as ‘a full season plus five games in…’

       1. Yeah, I gave Emery a pass on last season. This is the one that really counts for me. So far, it doesn’t look good. He may be gone sooner than I thought.

11. Great post Tim

    Currently we sit in 13th place in the league in terms of the number of goals conceded. We are on pace to concede 60.8 goals in 38 league games. If Emery does not fix the defense soon then I would suggest he should be out by Christmas and he certainly should not get a new contract.

    The one thing I would disagree with is your statement that we have world class players at nearly every position. That is a very very heavy dose of hyperbole. We have 1 world class player in this squad right now named Aubameyang. Lacazette is a good to very good player and Pepe has potential but so far has been less then underwhelming. If we take off the rose colored glass we can see the rest of the talent pool is rather thin.

    1. The one thing I would disagree with is your statement that we have world class players at nearly every position.

       ==

       I’m with that. Tim, care to comment? I’d like to hear why you think we have a world class player in every position in this team. Define world class, too, ok? Lol. And do you think “world class” should at all take into account the career stage of the player in question? I’d argue yes.

       1. This team is one of the most expensively assembled clubs in the world. All of our players (bar Mustafi) would fit into any club in the world. The argument that the players are crap is itself utter crap.

          1. You sound like Emery when asked a question.

             Again, list our world class players. By any club, you mean like Barcelona, City, Liverpool, Bayern, etc., so I’m just curious the names of our players who would get into those teams.

             1. Auba , Laca aaaaand that’s it.

                AMN wouldn’t get a sniff at City or Pool because he drifts in and out of games too much.
                . Xhaka, Sokratis, Mustafi are calamities in waiting , ill suited to play out the back style of football.

                Guen is a fantastic prospect who will oscillate between great and poor performances like most 20 year old would.
                Wouldn’t get in either Pool or City as things stand today.

                LT is a lightweight and probably overrated.

                Ozil’s talent needs special environment to shine through and most games don’t provide that.

                Pepe is a high priced prospect who might need a full season to get up the speed.

                Luiz is an upgrade on Mustafi and that’s not saying much.

                Ceballos is a real deal but Zidane didn’t think he was up the scratch at RM this season which should tell you all you need to know where the bar for world class is set there.

                That said , there’s enough quality in this squad to wipe the floor with the likes of Watford ,or at the very least play them even.
                This isn’t a knee jerk reaction on my part , I’m looking at the tail end of the last season and the first five games of this one and I don’t see any improvement.
                That’s all.

                As for who the next manager should be…………well, I don’t really care.
                Just like I didn’t care who would replace Wenger.

          2. The personnel can no longer be an excuse. There is an argument that, despite being excellent players, they don’t actually work together (forwards that don’t track back, ground-eating midfielders who don’t defend well, fullbacks that aren’t defensively-minded), but I don’t necessarily buy that.

             Saying all of our players would fit into any club in the world is an exaggeration, but there is no doubt that there are no longer any major holes in this squad – a first in probably 12-15 years. The players pound for pound should be battling for 3rd place, and with a world class coach, probably for 2nd or even 1st with some luck.

             Emery is not that man. Never was. We all wanted to give him time, to be supportive, because we craved change. I don’t care for philosophies – just results, really – but he has brought neither. It hasn’t worked, and there is no sign it will work. If anything, it’s getting worse.

             I’d take Allegri. He may be a risk, but anyone is. At least he is proven, and would instill some defensive nous into this talented but rudderless team.

             1. I am not interested in a Freddie, a Vieira, or an Arteta at this point. With Man Utd and Chelsea down, now is the time to kick off into the Champions League off their backs, not join them in the mud with an bang-average/unproven, sentimental pick.

12. If arsenal don’t get top 4 (with or without unai), auba and laca will Probably want to leave? That’ll be the real disaster

    1. Lacazette had a shot at Atletico, but wasn’t patient enough to not play for half a season leading up to the World Cup (they had a transfer ban), so he signed for us instead. He might have thought displacing Giroud at club level would get him into the World Cup squad. The way it eventually played out, forging a partnership with Griezmann might have been the smarter move for him (or maybe he was never getting into the squad anyway).

       But he must have tons of regret now – the national team basically not selecting him since he moved, the fact that he last played Champions League soccer as a Lyon player, all that.

    2. Auba, Laca, Guendouzi, Bellerin, Leno, Tierney, Pepe, Torreira, Ozil, Willock, pretty much anyone with talent already wants to leave as long as Unai is manager.

       1. Already wants to leave? Evidence? I’ve not heard anything about any of those players wanting to leave. This is just your assumption, right?

          1. Bunburyist, can’t you see what imothyt is doing?!
             Stop trying to drag an emotional convo into bs logical requests for evidence, etc. Same with your crap about alternatives on a string that spoke of mourinho, for the sake of f**K. It’s probably irritated at least one of your friends in life before?

             1. No, this is my online self. In life, I’m actually quite reasonable. Like you, I come across as a real a**hole on this site.

       2. No evidence they want to leave, but wouldn’t be unreasonable. It makes sense that Kos, a loyal servant to the club, would want out at all costs. Monreal too, even if he made less noise about it.

13. Not particularly sure its important for fans to discuss who should come in. The executive management has brought in good players this season and won a lot of goodwill with their action. I trust them to bring in a decent manager given the UE experiment has failed or to the more patient amongst us looks like failing. UE has to go, when is a matter of (as someone said above) tying up the replacement. Memories of how we were locked in for 3rd last season then crashed surely cant be forgotten. This season is set up for us to get top 3 unless we shoot ourselves in the foot. Which we did yesterday. We cannot keep doing that (thats half plea half statement)

    1. Not particularly sure its important for fans to discuss who should come in.

       ===

       Why not? As is abundantly clear here, it seems fans feel it’s important to discuss reasons for a coach to be fired, so why not discuss reasons for a coach to be hired?

       Perhaps we should follow the tried-and-true method of United and Chelsea by appointing a romantic choice. Ljungberg or Arteta will surely succeed in the footsteps of Lampard or Solskjaer for reasons. Let’s give it a go. What could go wrong?

       But seriously. Let’s have some names. Let’s debate. Given the personnel we have at Arsenal right now, who should take over when Emery gets fired this fall? And, more importantly, how long should they be given to succeed? I’m not being sarcastic. I do genuinely want to have this debate.

       I’m not averse to getting rid of Emery, by the way. I’ve always been of the opinion that he deserves to prove himself in his second season. Does that equate to five games in? Not sure. I’m just not confident that any manager can take this squad to the next level in 12 months or less (cause that’s the standard being set here). For example, it sounds like Emery wanted a more physical central midfielder last year; Raul et al said no, but you can have a mini-me in the form of Torreira! Also, you can’t have Ramsey. But you can have a bunch of inexperienced midfielders who are either young or acclimating to the league! I would suggest that the reason for how sadly we give up the midfield may not be solved entirely by a change of coach. You need both the right kind of tactics and the right kind of personnel. One thing I would suggest as a criticism: Emery cannot expect players to play it out from the back as the only option (as Tom as rightly pointed out). The lack of flexibility is worrying.

       Pepe will probably turn out to be a dud, by the way. I mean, five games in we can call this, right? Or is it Emery’s fault that he stunk the place up this afternoon?

       1. You remember Tim’s post about the Atleti Valencia game where Emery did what Emery does despite having Villa, Mata, Silva and co at his disposal?

          Now go check the thread about how he lost 4-2 to a 9 man Madrid with the same squad.

          That in itself would not be the problem if it was an outlier. But ten years on, he’s making the same mistakes, playing the same way.

          As for managers, here’s 3 we could possibly get with the salary and stature we offer: Ten Haeg, Naglesmann, Allegri.

          1. That’s super cool, Bombay. Now would you mind putting in the effort to explain why those managers would succeed at Arsenal? I mean, you put in the effort to say why Emery would suck. Why exactly would your suggestions be better? I look forward to details such as the ones you put forward on the opposite case.

             Cheers.

             1. This is churlish now, Bun. You asked for names, he gave you names. He went further, and showed a track record of less-than-success with Emery.

                You want to know why those coaches would succeed? No guarantee they would, but look at their track records, which would suggest either (a) an upward trajectory with limited squads (Ten Haeg, Nagelsmann), or (b) sustained success at the top level (Allegri). Isn’t that enough?

                Nothing is guaranteed, but those are names – among others – that are showing or have shown what they can do.

          2. I miss bombay, Bombay gooner!

             1. You won’t miss what it’s become now, Kafkush.

                Bun, you talk about others giving emotional responses and when confronted with logic proceed to whataboutery and changing the goal posts. Fly that Emery flag high for all you want, it’s still a free world, but that doesn’t mean you’re right.

                As for why those 3 names, I’m sure you know enough about football and have followed it closely to know the reasoning. If not, do a bloody Google search instead of asking everyone to spoon feed you everything instead of continually getting riled up.

             2. There is no Emery flag. I’m on record below saying he should be sacked if this becomes the norm. The responses here about Emery have been disproportionately driven by emotion. The very post itself opens by noting that it was written in anger. I’m part of that. So what bothers me isn’t the idea that Emery should go. I understand why people think this. What irks is that when we as fans get into this ‘everything the coach does is sh*t’ mode it creates zero room for nuance and a willful ignoring of mitigating factors or what he might have done right. The ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ attitude does not wear well. And while I can appreciate that the anger is coming from the WAY we’re dropping points, we are level on points (I think?) with our rivals, so I’m just not ready for a Kermit the Frog.

                To be clear, yesterday’s performance pushed me ever closer to the Unai Out camp. But you mistake if you think I’m in an Emery camp. My camp has always been, wait and see, and then judge him this season. So far, as I’ve said, it hasn’t looked good.

14. Sorry, comment re. Jose was a hollow joke. Hopefully. Re. world class players in every position – not sure I would agree. But I do think we have better players in every position than Watford. (Except maybe Deulofou who always looks like a world class player against us). Anyway, my feeling is that there is a problem with a) the talent of players or b) a problem with the way they the players are being trained, instructed or used. At this point, and my view includes the end of last season, I’m inclined to think the latter. I’d be very happy to be proven wrong but I cant remember that last time I thought Arsenal played really well. Home to Leicester last year ?

15. Emery makes the team less than the sum of its parts. We have the exact same fatal weaknesses we have had for years, except they’re even worse now. Our strengths aren’t as strong, even with better personnel. I just hate it, because I like many of the players on this team. There is potential for an excellent team there, but they’re handicapped right now.

16. We certainly have more then good enough to beat a team like Watford and I think we can challenge for 4th place this season given the fact that none of ManU, Chelsea or Spurs are all that good and any 2 of them have the potential to melt down. However, to suggest that Bellerin, Ozil, Torriera, Guendouzi, Leno, Willock, the current version of Pepe, Ceballos, Tierney, Kolasinac, Sok, Luiz are world class talents and would get into any team in the world is a quite a ways off target. We have Europa league/5th place in the PL level talent.

17. I am not even angry now. I expected this. My preview to the game was ‘abandon all hope’ and I will have that as my motto while Emery is in charge.

    Emery lost the dressing room last season too, before he reinstated Ozil. Xhaka’s statement about being afraid specified that we went in happy and confident at HT, but came out scared to play, right from the first minute. That’s a shot at Emery. Btw, I know this isn’t Xhaka appreciation land, but he’s been captain wherever he’s played. I have, despite his limitations and errors, never seen him hide, nor seen any of his teammates lose trust in him, the way they did in say, Mustafi. He is captain, even if unannounced. The team isn’t happy with the coach. I think it’s apparent. But does ‘Don’ Raul pull the trigger?

18. Wenger had a defensive structure that was better. He would build his attack on top of it and often that could lead to the defense being neglected. But if Arsenal lost 2 games in a row, you’d see them focus more on defense and usually pull off a clean sheet. Emery has made us worse in every aspect of the game. All these excuses to cover this simple fact, that he’s not a good coach. At least, not for any big club.

    1. This is one of the most laughable comments I’ve seen in a while. Let’s start with “Wenger had a defensive structure” Hahaha! You’ve always been myopic about Wenger, Shard. This is further proof. You must not have watched Wenger’s Arsenal from 2007-2017.

       Yeah, totally, we built a team on top of Gallas and Silvestre. Or was that Senderos and Squillaci? Silly comment.

       1. So you think we had no defensive structure under Wenger? At all? But you think there is one under Emery. Yeah, I’m not sure I even care to debate this.

          By the way, do you think Emery is a better coach than OGS and Lampard? Because that was like the floor of everyone’s expectations. I’m not sure he is. In fact, I’m pretty sure he’s not.

          1. Well, tell me, Shard. I made no such claim. But, you, on the other hand, claimed there was a defensive structure under Wenger that was better. I look forward to your explanation, especially concerning how Wenger never bothered to buy a DM, or thought Denilson or Xhaka would be one, etc. So enlighten us. How was Wenger better, defensively?

          2. Wenger thought Silvestre was a good buy, Shard. Care to explain?

             1. Structure is different from recruitment. no? He thought Silvestre was a good buy because he cost like 3/4th of a million and was experienced, at a time when we were sorely lacking it. His system did place pressure on the CBs, but when he wanted to focus on defense, it was usually a good team defensive performance. Emery has us incapable of keeping opposition shots low, while creating less, and has the team confused.

                This isn’t even an argument. We are worse under Emery.

             2. Shard, did you just say that Wenger’s teams displayed a good team performance, defensively? Where were you in the last three years of his reign? You’re embarrassing yourself. 8-2!

             3. And yeah, structure is different from recruitment, but you’ve not once explained what that structure was. I look forward to your explanation of Wenger’s defensive structure.

          3. Also, I know full well why you won’t debate this, because you have nothing to stand on.

             Defensive “structure”? Explain what Wenger’s was, just so we’re clear.

             1. One fullback higher than the other. CBs and MFs encouraged to step up and intercept. A deep lying midfielder to support play, and drop deep if needed.

                That’s the best me, an amateur, can describe it.

                But it worked better than whatever Emery is supposedly trying to do. This can be seen with the eye, and with stats.

                The 8-2 actually wasn’t as bad a defensive performance, ManU were just shooting like snipers that day, and we had a decimated squad. The 6-1 to ManU many years earlier was worse.

             2. One full-back higher than the other? That’s the magic, eh, Shard? Hilarious reading of the game. CB’s intercept! Oh yeah, that’s some serious analysis and some tactic unique to Wenger’s “structure.” Whatevs. That structure, even if we accept your simplistic summary, failed us miserably on many occasion. Try harder. Yeah, the 8-2 wasn’t a bad performance? We’ve never lost a game by such a margin under Emery, but one certainty is that you’d never make such an incredible excuse for him as you did for that 8-2. You’re so transparent.

       2. Cech won the golden gloves in the 2015/2016 season. Before you say it was all down to his brilliance, Arsenal had the lowest xGA that season.

          1. Yes, also they only allowed 37 big chances that season and Cech saved 12 and conceded 13. So far this season, Arsenal have conceded 10 big chances the opposition have scored on 7. Leno has only saved 1 big chance this season.

19. Bun

    You offer a debate and then just want to try to eviscerate rather than understand and engage in one. I may not understand football tactics, but I see yours. It’s strange because I don’t think we disagree on much. But you’d rather go with an infuriating attitude of, ‘you know nothing’, and then focusing on one line and using it to attack and demolish an argument which isn’t exactly yours. Maybe that is what you think good debating is I guess.

    Of course I wouldn’t give Emery the same benefit of the doubt as Wenger. HE HASN’T EARNED IT! Quite the opposite.

    Whatever. I guess we’d just better stay out of each others’ way. I’m sorry I chose to respond to you above, and sorry that Wenger’s name, even in a factual comparison, annoys you so much.

    1. Shard, you’ve offered nothing in defense of your arguments. You’ve made an absurd and indefensible claim about Wenger’s defensive structure being better than Emery’s (offering the most vague description as evidence, i.e., one fullback higher!), and you’ve shown a clear prejudice in your defense of an 8-2 drubbing while offering nothing of the sort for any Emery loss that doesn’t approximate that scoreline.

       Prejudice.

       1. I offered more than that. You just chose to ignore that and demand the explanations you list out here. As you are often wont to do.

          What do you mean by prejudice? Just that I like Emery less than Wenger? Well, duh. Why wouldn’t I? Why wouldn’t any Arsenal fan?

          Also, I don’t need to ‘defend’ my comments. Take them as they are. Or challenge them. I’m always open to debate. In fact, that’s also how I can gauge my own flaws, and basically why I’m on this blog. But what you do isn’t engage. It’s browbeat. It’s cute and all for a while. But I’m just not having it anymore.

          If that doesn’t strike you as true, that’s up to you. I don’t expect you to listen or introspect. You’re way too sure of yourself for that. Feel free to ignore my comments, just like you choose to ignore what I actually say, in favour of imagining why I’m saying it.

          1. Um. No. You’re not getting away with that. You just made a bunch of excuses for Wenger’s 8-2 loss that you would never countenance for Emery. That’s the prejudice I’m talking about. It’s incredible because Emery’s Arsenal has never lost by such a scoreline. You also claimed Wenger had a better defensive structure and then backed that up with a frankly laughable assertion about one fullback being higher than the other, and center backs making interceptions, etc., as if that wasn’t commonplace. Faced with those counterarguments, your only recourse is to say that I don’t “engage.” Talk about deflection. Come on, Shard. Tell us again what Wenger used to do that was so structurally sound. Did the defenders intercept stuff? Man, Emery’s really missing a beat here.

             1. I said Wenger’s Arsenal defended better than Emery’s. and that this is borne out by the eye test and stats. By the shots we’ve conceded under Emery. Emery is worse than the worst of Wenger.

                I didn’t ‘defend’ the 8-2. I said it wasn’t as bad a defensive performance as is made out and I said why. I also said a PRIME Wenger defensive performance was way worse. But of course you’d ignore that. Because you brought up the 8-2 as some sort of half baked attempt to counter the fact that Emery has us defending worse than Wenger ever did. And that’s while killing the attack.

                If you want to see who’s trying to deflect, take a look in the mirror.

                I say you don’t engage, because you don’t. You’d rather just force people to submit to you being right. That’s just how you roll.

             2. One thing that everybody should agree upon is that UE came after Wenger. His CLEAR mandate was to take care of our defensive issues. He knew what he was dealing with. He knew what the challenge was. Wenger was about attacking, about freedom and it led him to a series of blind spots with regard to defense. Unai was hired to succeed a coach who had neglected defense. His famous presentation certainly addressed that. I’m sure he made a series of proposals to improve the defense. Nothing materialized, He failed, completely. Let’s not compare a successful attacking coach who lost his way with the defense and a coach who was hired to take care of that very problem, failed and did not, in the process, manage to offer his team any identity or personality.

             3. Look, Shard, I agree we look defensively bad right now. But claiming that Wenger had a better defensive structure is just another example of your prejudice. It was scrambled eggs for a decade. Emery hasn’t made us better, but Wenger was also about the eggs. There was no “structure.” We always looked desperate.

                It’s funny, because the same people who are moaning about structure are also saying things like “individuals are carrying Emery,” without giving any thought to the fact that Wenger had better individual defenders at his disposal than Emery. He had Bellerin and Monreal for most of his reign, as well as Koscielny and Mertesacker. Emery’s system of playing it out from the back is infuriating, but he’s also relying on Sokratis, AMN, and Kolasinac, none of whom are particularly good players. Luiz, while the best of the bunch, is determined to give away one penalty every game, it seems.

                I’m wasn’t cool with Wenger’s approach to defense. I’m also not cool with Emery’s approach. I wanted Wenger gone because he refused to adapt and gave us scrambled eggs every week. I WILL want Emery gone if he does the same this season. I gave Wenger a decade of benefit of the doubt, because he gave us more than a decade of incredible football. I have always said that I will give Emery two seasons because of the context in which he came here.

                Tim bet me an ice cream cone that Emery will be gone by December, and I said he’ll stay the year and get us in the top four. At the moment, it looks like he’ll be the cone-licker here, and I’ll gladly hold up my hands and say I was wrong. But don’t start talking nonsense about “defensive structure” and Wenger.

             4. You keep insisting that the problem is in the personnel in the back four. I keep telling you that the problem is in the structure of the team. I can’t figure out why we are not communicating here.

                Remember when Luiz gave away the penalty? Right? That’s Luiz’ fault. But the second we gave the ball away, the midfield evaporated. I was shaking my head in despair. It was unbelievable how disorganized we were on that play. So, yes, an attacker free to run at Luiz forced Luiz to make a mistake and he gave away the penalty.

                Go watch the entire play again for that penalty. Both Arsenal midfielders were in the Watford box (Willock and Torreira). Torreira takes a shot, Watford clear, Deulofeu draws in three Arsenal players (Xhaka, A M-N, and Torreira) and passes to Cleverly. Now the break is on. Perreira just runs at Luiz.

                But that one play aside, Arsenal couldn’t hold on to the ball this entire match. We completed just 83% of our passes. Constantly turning the ball over in midfield and not winning it back or stopping the opponents puts the defense under enormous pressure.

                So, there are some similarities to Wenger’s Arsenal but some differences. The main difference being that Unai seems to think that playing it out from the back is a good tactic. Which invites pressure higher up the pitch.

                Teams know this and especially know that when Arsenal don’t have Lacazette we have no outlet up top. This could be a brutal month for Arsenal. Though that depends on whether other coaches are brave enough to play Arsenal high up with pressure.

                We will see!

             5. What I keep trying to communicate is that it’s both. I bring up individuals because others say the reason we’re doing anything at all is because of individuals. Well, ok, then, let’s talk about the individual mistakes, too. It just irks when the sauce is used for the gander but not the goose. The tendency has been to say, when we do well, that it’s because of individuals, but when we do poorly — like pass to the opposition or give up a penalty — it’s because of Emery. There’s the bias creeping in.

                Playing it out from the back is not an inherently bad system, but it is if you have no fullbacks, and error-prone CB’s (Luiz made high profile errors in other systems, too, by the way). From what Xhaka said, it appears the team is able to do this in training just fine, but we all saw what happened at Watford.

                Weirdly, people complain about not being able to tell how Emery wants to play, and yet if he switches it up now and starts hoofing it long, the same people will complain that he’s a coward, etc. We’ve seen all those arguments here before. My bet is that he said to himself, ‘F it, I’m playing this way regardless of the personnel this year, because being reactive last year and adopting tactics to make up for personnel problems got me nowhere last season.’ I don’t know. Wouldn’t surprise me, though.

                The players have to be able to figure out when it’s ok to play it out from the back, and when it’s ok to hoof it. It’s clear they do both in any given match, but default to the former.

             6. Adrian Clarke rips Emery’s tactics and the team’s work: https://www.arsenal.com/news/analysis-why-it-went-wrong-watford

                Also, it’s possible that there are moments of individual brilliance that are carrying Arsenal despite Emery’s awful team tactics. That’s what I think is going on.

             7. Clarke’s summary:

                The issues that we had in midfield
                The threat we posed on the counter
                When we needed to show more game management
                Auba’s clinical display up front

                That’s pretty much what I think most of us are saying here, man.

             8. I do love Adrian Clarke’s smiling narration. He seems like a lovely guy.

                Is Aubameyang brilliant as an individual? Yes, and he “had it all to do” as they say. But he was given the opportunity to “have it all to do” by a system that Emery prefers, namely in his use of full backs. That AMN move was a perfect illustration.

    2. Well said Shard. Always one step from asking people to prove negatives. I scroll past when the two of you are discussing anything. It’s tiresome.

       1. No one should read anything I discuss with Shard, though I do sometimes agree with him. The trigger for me is when he talks about Wenger. Always always always.

          1. I think its because we have only really had one other manager as a reference point for Arsenal’s performances and tactically as well. To gauge progress, you have to measure what is, against what was. Until we go through 2 to 3 other managers, Arsene will continue to be in the conversation. Not because someone likes him or not, but because his tenure and why it ended, are still points to consider when measuring any new manager.

             Its not about favouritism or preference, its just the logical way to judge progress or the impact of anything in life. We look at what we did in the past and measure against what we are currently doing. So Bun, I suggest you get used to it for at least the next couple of years, or you will be getting annoyed at every turn.

20. Oh just saw the other comment. ‘If you can’t describe the process well enough for me not to poke holes in, your observation is wrong’, is the refuge of a faux intellectual.

    The fact that continents moved, the continental drift theory, fittingly outlined by a paleo-climatologist named Wegener, was discredited by the leading geologists of the time because he couldn’t satisfactorily explain the mechanism of how they would move, when it was demanded of him. They thus ignored the evidence he’d offered, and concluded the land is as it ever was. They were wrong and self importantly smug in their wisdom.

    1. You said Wenger had a better defensive structure, and then when asked to explain what that was, gave a simplistic answer about one fullback being higher than the other, etc. In other words, the evidence you used in support of your claim was vague and therefore unconvincing.

       1. The evidence I used is of the stats, and the eye test including the observation that we’d go more defensive if we’d had two bad results in a row, and usually get a good performance. You asked for the description of said structure, and then went, hah, nothing special. Well yeah, there’s nothing special about the structure. But it worked better.

          Btw, implicit in the comparison is an acceptance that we weren’t great defensively even under Wenger. The fact is that Emery is worse. No matter how much you call it nonsense. Anyway, you do you. We’re not going to agree on this, and there’s no reason to argue about Wenger anymore.

          1. There is reason if you bring him up. We complained about Wenger’s lack of defensive shape for years. It wasn’t a “better structure.” Often there was no structure at all, other than play a high line and scramble back on the inevitable counter-attack. Perhaps it gave up fewer chances than now because Wenger had the luxury of having actual fullbacks, but of course we all know how you argue this point: when we do well, it’s because of individuals, when we do poorly, it’s because of Emery.

             In recent memory, one of the few times we looked good against a top four team under Wenger was a game against City in which we parked the bus and beat them on the counter. He deliberately conceded possession. It was almost unheard of from him.

          2. Actually, when he had Sagna, Wenger did have a play-it-out system, namely: goal-kick to Sagna’s head. I’m trying to think who in our midfield or up top makes a good target for Leno these days? Is this why we’re defaulting to playing it out from the back? We don’t have any high ball winners in the team?

             1. YES!

                Don’t you remember you and I having this conversation on here just the other day??

             2. Does ring a bell. I remember years ago you made that observation about Sagna, and it came back to me when I was thinking about how Wenger preferred to ignite the first phase.

             3. We do need an outlet / alternative to the play-it-out-from-the-back strategy, and I wonder if perhaps this was Emery’s thinking in wanting a taller presence in the middle of the park (e.g., Nzonzi). We almost have to play it out from a GK, because who is the alternative target man? Really struggling to think of one.

21. Hah, Tim. I just noticed the ‘It’s Ginormous’ tagline. What brought that on?

    1. Guendouzi. There was a misquote circulated that when Guendouzi was called up by the French National team he said “it’s ginormous”

       1. Oh I should have guessed. I watched the clip even without knowing French only because I was convinced he wouldn’t have said ginormous. He said gigantesque I believe.

22. Completely sympathise with your post Tim and echo the sentiments. I take comfort in my gut feel that we have owners and execs who will wish to avoid a repeat of the late Wenger toxicity. Looking at the chat across multiple sites it’s fair say Emery has lost the majority of fans and players. Hopefully a replacement coach arrives soon as it’d be a shame if this became another ‘falling short’ season.

    As an aside I thoroughly enjoy reading everyone’s comments but some of this is barely adolescent. You know who you are; please leave it in the playground.

    1. feel that we have owners and execs who will wish to avoid a repeat of the late Wenger toxicity

       ===

       Precisely. It’s why I really hope we resist the urge to freak out. I think sometimes we get it in our heads that nothing will change unless we as fans express our vociferous and unanimous fury, but that was the previous era, when it felt like nothing we saw in the game affected the powers that be. We’re in a new era. They will have noticed this performance. No need for toxicity.

23. lf I was watford I would be more disapointed 31 shots and only one goal from open play and that was a gift.
    That result felt as bad as the man u 8-2.
    teams and players in the premier league are nearly all great quality now even with the promoted teams you cannot drop workrate by any percentage or you will struggle.
    once a team gains momentum and sees your having a lazy you just cannot get it back.
    klopps liverpool are top of the league because he has eradicated this trait
    when we play ozil it seems that it gives every player the right to play lethargic he cannot motivate the team, the team need to motivate him.
    we need to sort this playing out from the back problem, but the long ball is a problem too, when we did go for the long ball auba, ozil and pepe are never going to win a ball in the air and willock ducked out of a header. the effort to win anything against the central defenders are just a token gesture.
    ozil or cebellos should drop and not guendouzi all the time, it’s too predictable and the oposition close on him straight away even to create diversions, but fair play to him he still keeps showing for the ball and he certainly has a bit about him.
    All the work on the training ground that emery and ljunberg do goes straight out the window as soon as we step on the pitch shame.
    the other minor thing is we only dropped two points not three, in fact we actually gained one.
    my disapointment is the manner we played not the result.

24. why wasn’t watfords first goal checked with var? the player who intercepted the pass from sokratis was encroaching in the box we never deserved anything from the game but rules are rules.

    1. It wasn’t checked with VAR because VAR doesn’t check when the ball isn’t in play.

       1. hi tim, have you a link to the var rules. I can only see one about restarts.
          obviously once a restart takes place any mistakes in a previous passage of play cannot be looked at.
          but when the goal kick was taken the ball became in play that is when the encroachment took or was taking place.
          the only other rule I can find is if a goal kick is taken early an attacker doesn:t have to be outside the 18yard box.

25. I see no lies in this article. Really hard to stomach at the moment. I wasn’t Emery to do well because I want all Arsenal managers and players to do well but it’s becoming clear that for whatever reason, he’s not getting it out of us right now. I thought we set up with a diamond against Liverpool to try and counter their formation, keep it tight and hit them on the counter. I understood that, even if it didn’t work on the day. I don’t understand why we’d then go to the team bottom of the league and set up exactly the same.

    1. Because the coach is a coward. Gutless. Weak. Confused and neurotic. Control freak. A miserable sod (you can see that on the sidelines of every game, rest is my impression).

26. Man, that was tough. I don’t normally end up being annoyed at the end of a match. I’ve learned to become sanguine, to channel any disappointment into something like music. Although anger can be an energy, it’s often energy-sapping, so I try not to experience it. I couldn’t stop it yesterday though. A 2-2 draw that was a 5-2, 6-2, 7-2 thrashing in all but the result, it almost feels miraculous that we didn’t lose, and I almost hoped we had, because we deserved it so much. We were pretty poor in the 1st half, but I disagree with Tim – I think that 2nd half is the worst I can recall us playing since pre-Wenger times. But there may be some recency bias going on there, I admit….

    It left me feeling a bit lost. Emery had better hope that our four horsemen of the anti-apocalypse (Bellerin, Teirney, Holding, Lacazette) return and hit the ground running, and maintain fitness, or else events may well – and would probably deserve to – overtake him.

    Should Emery go? Maybe, maybe not. I follow no other league, know of not many other managers in detail, so it’s not like I could give my reasoning were I to even list a bunch of names, but it’s becoming harder not think like that. I thought the Liverpool match offered a blueprint – if not the personnel at the time – of how he wanted to approach matched like that, but the Watford match has pretty much blown that rationalisation out of the water for me. I don’t know, I just don’t know.

27. 100% right.

    The man is not up to this job.

    End it.

    Now.

28. after 16 months, we can’t see what emery has done to improve this team. what’s worse is that we can’t even see what he’s trying to do. emery’s arsenal lack direction. without direction, there’s no purpose or motivation to the way a team plays. as a result, arsenal can concede 31 shots to any team on any given matchday.

    this is plain to see and has been for a long time. myself, shard, and a handful of others have been beating the “unai out” drum for a long while now. we’d like to welcome the rest of you good folks who’ve decided to join the party; better late than never. meanwhile, others have suggested that he needs more time. sorry boys, but it doesn’t take all night to recognize that it’s dark outside so why give him all night? the complaints aren’t new. arsenal have no style, identity, or direction to their play. under emery, they play bad football.

    since it was announced that wenger was leaving, i’ve been clamoring for the vieira/bergkamp group be given the nod to lead the team. bergkamp has done marvels for ajax’ reserve and first team players while patrick’s blend of youth and experience had nycfc playing the best footie in the mls. vieira was the only person that wenger suggested should become the next arsenal manager. lastly, wengerball was really bergkamp/vieiraball and i totally believe they can bring those days back.

    1. “this is plain to see and has been for a long time. myself, shard, and a handful of others have been beating the “unai out” drum for a long while now. we’d like to welcome the rest of you good folks who’ve decided to join the party; better late than never”

       ————————

       It’s a miserable party if you ask me.
       No drinks, no finger food , no pizza or chicken wings.
       Just a bunch of guys sitting around bitc#ing and moaning.
       I was late to the Wenger out party for some of the same reasons.
       These are the worst sausage parties ever.

       1. Well, almost all debates about sports are sausage parties. Name me a female Arsenal writer you like not named Amy Lawrence?

          As for it being a miserable party, you’re right. What will be worse is if we have to sit through 18 more months of Emery.

29. Two cardinal rules of football – you cannot let your opponent build through the middle and you cannot lose possession in the middle. Against Spurs and yesterday we just are way too open and careless in the middle. In possession we spread out so much that it actually slows our play down because passes have to travel 20-30 yards and if they’re not pin-point accurate and weighted perfectly the opposition is on us like flies on s**t. When I watch City play there are a lot more players that come short for the ball and they compress the field so that when they lose possession there is limited space for the opponents to immediately build through.

    Any clips I see of Emery’s practices it seems to be a lot of conditioning/technical drills with players running through sticks and mannequins – where is the 11 v 11 Bielsa-style sessions with the coach screaming at them about shape and patterns?

    Unfortunately I think we’re stuck with this guy until the end of the year, but I’m worried because even Chelsea looks like they’re getting their legs, United are boring but solid and Spurs starting to get settled.

30. Wow.

    Some pretty strong feelings on this. Ive never subscribed to the notion that if you don’t think Emery is good enough, then you should tell us who is. I heard the same argument in favour of keeping Arsene Wenger two years ago. And speaking of Arsene, he was an absolutely inspired hire by Arsenal in 1996. An absolutely inspired hire that no one had heard of. But he turned out to be the most consequential figure — player or official — in the club’s history.

    That’s the beauty of the recruitment process. We don’t know who will be the best fit for this football club AT THIS STAGE. We the fans can talk like if we know, but we don’t. I can reach the conclusion that Emery’s not the man, yet not know who is.
    But I can offer some educated fan’s thoughts on philosophy.

    The Arsenal philosophy which we managed to give voice to in the early Wenger years, is playing good football, but allying it with resilience and a winning mentality. If you say that you cant have all those things today, I’d think that that is a fair point. This isn’t the landscape of 1999. Greame Souness said of Arsene’s early teams that they can play you off the park aesthetically, or they can bully you off the park. Wenger’s problems started when he went small in player stature.

    – Can Emery give voice top Arsenal’s philosophy?
    – Is he a transitional coach, or is he overseeing a transition, with a view to being the post-transition coach?
    – Do the times necessitate a change of philosophy? For pragmatism ,until the rebuild is completed?
    – Can you have it all, the sexy and the tough, without being resourced to Pep levels, in 2020?

    These are complex questions that can get lost in certitude. I hear Bun on the point that 5 games into a season you can say that he owns is too reactionary; but on the other hand, someone can come through an interview process and you can see within in a week that you made a hiring mistake.

    There’s a lot to like about Unai. He’s earnest, and honest and open and seems a really decent guy. He has the respect of fellow coaches. But I still feel, in my bones, that he may not be the one. And for me, he’s nearly out of time to change my mind.

    1. but on the other hand, someone can come through an interview process and you can see within in a week that you made a hiring mistake.

       ===

       That’s fair enough, and I hear your points, generally. But I would suggest the board saw what Emery was facing last year, and brought context into how they judged his performance. They will not be as forgiving this season, particularly after backing him in the transfer market (though it’s been made clear that they don’t always buy the kind of player Emery wants, which makes this tough…apparently he didn’t want Torreira because he prefers players of a bigger stature in the midfield).

       If, at any point between now and December, we see what happened at Watford develop into some kind of norm (however you define that), I’m sure the board will do the right thing and fire him, and I’d be fully behind that. That second half yesterday was pathetic.

       1. Agreed.

    2. Klopp was laughing at his formation after their win against us. But I appreciate the rest of what you said, and your post here and on the guardian yesterday.
       I had already posted, having woken up late and not see any of the game, that I was done with emery, a boring and negative manager. Then I watched 10 minutes of the game and tuned out. I was done before yesterday’s result, but this blogpost is making me loquacious for some reason.
       Worse than anything else for me – we attack like crap now.

       1. I thought that his subs were terrible, especially of Ceballos. We played worse. And I cant see a good football rationale the first one especially.

          But some things he cant control. Like Willock running 50 years with the ball on a 2 v2 counter (as I recall), Auba wide open to his right, and instead choosing to dribble between the only 2 Watford men upfield. A bit of head-up awareness could have seen a classic give-and-go take both defenders out of the game. Ozil may not have Willock’s energy, but in that situation, he’d likely have played the right pass.

          Or Reiss Nelson getting into promising positions, but getting too easily muscled off the ball. I was surprised about how flimsy he was made to look by Watford defenders. Either Nelson or Willock scores or assists, and Emery looks like a tactical genius, regardless of the dross his team had served up before.

          1. You touch another thing I believe we can see in the 22 game run. We won some moments there, not patterns of dominating. In fact, our results against top teams, where he had us playing like hungry underdogs, added the gloss to those results, making us trust in the touted process.

31. anyone seen the pictures of william saliba in the arsenal end with the away fans yesterday?.. hope his english isn’t very good yet or he certainly heard a few choice words.

32. Guen had probably his worst game in a red jersey. Poor decision-making and body shape when receiving. That said, there were tactical issues playing from the back, as others have noted. But what stands out to me as I re-watch the horror show of our goal kicks is seeing Xhaka. He positions himself to be a non-option every time Guen gets the ball. Then he just stands still once the ball gets to his teammate. Only when 3 opponents stream to Guen does he finally move, and it’s way too late. It’s also pretty clear to me that his teammates don’t want Xhaka to have the ball under pressure playing out from the back. There are acres of space between their lines, but that would require a chipped ball to GX in many cases. And he can’t settle a ball from the air and make a pass unless he has enough time to make a sandwich, including toasting the bread. How in the world can you beat a press with your deep-lying playmaker unable to participate in playing out? That, and his terrible choices of when to engage and drop whe we are out of possession made me scream. I have become that guy that sees only the bad with GX.

    And finally, a game plan focused on counterattacking against Watford? Watford? We take the same approach there as at Anfield? Giving UE only 5 games into the new season to figure things out does sound ridiculously short. But when the new season resembles last season’s end so clearly, I’m starting to worry that waiting another 5 or 10 games could find us facing another year of Europa league.

    1. Thank you for mentioning this. I went back and watched the second half and Xhaka was hiding on a LOT of possessions.

       1. That’s surprising. I’ve never got the sense that he hides. (Or does he, do you think?) He was certainly annoyed by the tactic of playing it from the back. He demanded it be played long after the goal. I presume he was also displeased with the way Emery’s HT team talk went.

          1. He’s fine in the first five minutes and then starts hiding behind a marker. He covered himself for their first goal, not really making himself available. Though why Leno didn’t chip it over the first line of defenders there is a mystery.

             1. Oh, I meant in general. I believed you about this game, but appreciate the details.

             2. I think he didn’t chip it because it would have gone to Xhaka, who can’t receive a chipped ball, turn and make a play on it in less than an hour. He also theoretically has Dani, but Xhaka and he were often spaced closely.

       2. interesting – was his talk of “fear” projection?

33. Thanks for that Tim. Just how I’ve felt since the disastrous end to last season confirmed what my heart, head and eyes were telling me.
    With the additions acquired in the transfer window joining some jems already in the team we should be doing well – yes maybe still growing together – but certainly better that we have done. These players can, and most likely love, to play football. I reckon they are much better at ‘reacting’ to the situation on the pitch than any amount of Emery mumbo-jumbo formations, half backed to react to the opposition. Unleash these players – especially when Bellerin, Tierney and Lacazette return – and let them play the beautiful game. Bring back possession football, engaging talent with ball, having fun, and playing an Arsenal Way.
    Emery is not the coach to do this. I don’t have time to wait for him to learn new ways. Let’s understand the situation as intelligent people can and act on it. This is not disloyal, it is the intelligent thing to do. Use the time to January to search out a new coach that Edu and Raul know has the right philosophy in their blood.. And hire him. It is really that simple. We are not ManU, we are not messing up by doing this. Please, can Arsenal be allowed to be as good as we are, post-Wenger blues do not have to be part of our script. Let’s capitalize on that still excellent summer transfer window. Now.

34. I’ve said before – imo Emery was hired not to develop a style, philosophy etc.
    It was to get into the CL.
    Not a bad appointment for that as his track record suggested ‘I can win the EL cup’.

    As soon as he managed it (or failed twice) he was likely to be out and we’d get in whoever could build a style etc – a project for the long term (or work with who we now know as Edu in achieving that).

    Sadly Emery is making Arsenal less than the sum of its parts.
    What I see when we come under pressure is panic. And panic causes brain-farts.
    But panic is not inevitable – even under stress there are ways to overcome it and that is on the management to provide systems/ habits/tactics for people to fall back on.

    Sadly (as I’ve said before) we seem to be more reliant on the other teams (Chelsea, ManU, Spu*s, Leicester!) failing rather than us storming ahead (and yet we’re the team with a settled manager and upgrades in players).
    And Emery is more reliant on another manager not being available, than in his own abilities.

35. LAGUNNER:
    “It’s also pretty clear to me that his teammates don’t want Xhaka to have the ball under pressure playing out from the back. There are acres of space between their lines, but that would require a chipped ball to GX in many cases. And he can’t settle a ball from the air and make a pass unless he has enough time to make a sandwich, including toasting the bread.”

    Take a bow, son. You win the comments section. Spot on.

    We have the weirdest playing it out from the back routine. It is so unnatural and telegraphed. It’s like someone announcing, “Im going to get really mad at you”, a split sec before getting mad at you. The centre backs stand on either side of Leno, and one of them distributes it. It was comical and embarrassing to watch yesterday. When Sokrais screwed up, everything went long from the keeper, and we won about 5% of those balls. That contributed in no small measure to the ball coming right back at us. For about 15 minutes, I thought that Pepe had left the field. If he got 2 touches in that time I’d be surprised. Luiz looked fatigued on that attempted tackle. Xhaka could barely run by minute 88. It’s so much hard work when you don’t have the ball.

    So yes, Xhaka’s positioning is key, for the lobbed pass or the pass on the carpet. And instead of the CB’s compressing the space by flanking Leno, they needed to get out and prove pass options for him.

    Have to say this about passing it out from the back…
    We keep talking about it as if it’s some fancyfangled thing, but it’s not. It’s what’s the modern game is. Levante do it fairly competently. Osasuna do it. St Etienne do it. Graz do it. Aston Villa do it. Brighton do it. That there’s all this attendant drama when Arsenal do it, shows that we are a badly coached team. Kicking it long sharply reduces your chances of retaining the ball. There is absolutely no excuse for highly paid ballplayers at a big club not working asa team to make it less drama filled than it is.

    A lot of the time I see Xhaka, with loads of options around him, pass it back to Leno.

    1. What went for Pepe went for Ozil as well. I know that some folks like to scapegoat him, but he was not the problem yesterday, as his play for the 2nd goal showed. After Sokratis’ mistake when everything went long, he’s not going to win many balls in that situation. Neither was Reiss Nelson.

       Prime Santi would have thrived in this team. Watford committed as many as 6 men to the press (the back 4 and the outlet, Guendouzi, who was sometimes double teamed), so a ferryer who was secure in possession and a passer could theoretically have cut them wide open. But our PIOFTB was so woeful, they had no fear of being punished for over-committing men to to the forward press.

    2. Arsenal were 0/20 long passes forward.

       1. Excuse me, 1/20.

          1. My math was a guess 😀

             But yeah, we were bad

    3. Great point. And this has become of us, the team that was known for passing, technical football.
       (The teams you mention btw, that’s a damning comparison).

    4. Yes, this is the norm in the modern game. So why do our players struggle with it? You say coaching, but they work on this all the time, I bet. And the players making mistakes are hugely experienced! Luiz, Sokratis, and Xhaka all struggle with it, and they are technically good players. What you want as an outlet is a player who runs to make himself available and who AT THE SAME TIME has an idea of where to go next. I have in mind the way Cesc (I know) used to take the ball from a pass and use its momentum to move directly and fluidly into an action of intent rather than needing to control, stop, turn. I know. It was Cesc. I feel like Guendouzi does / can do this? He struggled at Watford, though.

36. Lol… should I feel guilty that I checked Guardian every few hours to check if Unai got fired? 🙂 Irrespective of how the mid-week game goes, an insipid game with Aston Villa may seal it.

    1. No guilt. Maybe intuition?
       Been unable to locate any public comments by Unai Emery since his post-match interview. Seems indicative something is afoot.

       The deeper issue– Xhaka’s ‘scared’ comment to the press. Cannot put that back-in-the-tube. Odds are not favorable this team will rebound and accomplish under Emery. There’s no ‘team-DNA’ to rely upon with this flock of players.

       Ludicrous to think a team can play several styles well– until they’ve mastered one as a group.
       Unai is losing (lost?)– the confidence of his team.

       Not the miracle worker we’d hoped.
       Not the motivator the situation now requires.

       1. Xhaka should be forced to keep quiet. A gag order perhaps.
          Everything coming out of his mouth right now is just plain wrong.
          I don’t care how accurate his we were scared statement was, you just don’t say that $hit in public.

          1. It was bizarre.

          2. Last to say that was Theo Walcott who lost his first team place promptly. At least use the euphemism “handbrake”, Granit!

    2. Emery isn’t getting fired baring a total team collapse people.
       We’ll beat Vila and a draw at United isn’t beyond us either.

       There’s a difference between not picking up his option year ….and letting him go mid season.
       It ain’t happening.

       I see Freddie being mentioned which is kinda odd.
       Based on what exactly?
       If you’re gonna go for an unproven quantity then at least go for someone like Arteta who’s had a chance to learn from the best.

       1. Had Arteta pegged the December prior to UE’s hiring. Took quite a bit of grief for it– until it almost happened. Felt it was the right choice, right time. Win-Win prop. Had Arteta done well– win. Or if jettisoned here (as Emery, sooner than later)? Ensuring he’s not Pep’s successor at City– win. Arteta was not leaving City except for Arsenal. Unlikely now.

          It’s OK. I’ll go on record now– as I had with Arteta.
          Might have only been close then. But was in good company (Ornstein).

          Emery will be out with one more of these debacles.
          Now consider– what are the odds of that NOT happening before Christmas?

          1. This unfounded Artetamania puzzles me. It’s not based on anything except that he used to play for us, is the understudy of the great Pep, and by several accounts (which do not include actually independently head-coaching a team), he will one day become a very astute coach.

             Ljungberg is much better placed than Arteta is, and has much stronger claims to the Arsenal head coach job, if you want to go the ex-player turned coach route. Christ, even Lampard brought prior experience to the job of managing one of England’s biggest clubs.

             The Newcastle job, which Arteta reportedly turned down, would have been the perfect testbed. An underachieving but big and well-supported club. Top 7 or 8 material in the hands of the right manager… like Villa, Leeds, Sunderland and handful of clubs whose position belie their potential. Even Marcelo Bielsa, who has achieved much in the game as a player and coach, did not consider Leeds to be beneath him.

             I like Arteta a lot. I have his old, fading jersey, that’s how much. I think he was a superb player and captain for us. But I see no evidence offered that he was what we needed. And the biggest knock against him for me is that Ivan Gazidis wanted him.

             1. I think it’s a sign of how important the ‘Arsenal Way’ is to fans.

                Arteta may or may not be up to the challemge of being a head coach, though it is easier than being the manager like Wenger. But the vision he has of the game, his knowledge of Arsenal, and that there was a balance of players he had played with as captain, and new talent, should have eased his path.

                Newcastle’s biggest obstacle might have been their owner. I don’t think Arteta needs that sort of challenge to start off his career.

             2. Except Claude? It’s not unfounded. Unlike your tut-tutting each mention of it. According to sources (most likely Gazidis via Ornstein)– Arteta was to be the choice.

                Not just fans fantasizing. It was, in short, a real thing.
                Per Ornstein/BBC: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44165995

                Excerpted from the above-linked piece:
                “Their hope is to make the right decision, rather than a quick one. They insist the new man will continue the values instilled by Wenger, play exciting and progressive football, represent Arsenal well and integrate young players.”

                Can only chuckle at this– seeing as where we sit at present.

                Without (apparently) Raul putting his foot down, Arteta was to be Arsenal’s manager– instead of Emery. I would have been far more comfortable with that. Both then and now.

       2. I actually think (as I mentioned above in response to Matt) that this new look director outfit will take action. Gone are the almost dictatorial (if you’ll forgive the metaphor, because I loved him) days of Wenger. Raul et al backed Emery considerably in the transfer market, and they’ve given him a pass on his first year, it seems, but they won’t suffer any threat to our chances of top four. If we’re mid-table by the middle to end of November, I bet they sack him.

          1. Did you see Emery throw Guendouzi under the bus in his post-match presser? Pretty poor form, if you ask me. He set the team up to play out to Guendo and when he’s not perfect the manager publicly criticizes him. Not cool.

             “on if it’s down to a lack of character or a lack of courage…
             We have some young players, they need to have experiences like today. And also, I say to Matteo, Matteo is a very good player, he is improving, he is young, he is very emotional, he has personality and sometimes needs to make some mistakes to improve. In the first half he made a mistake and didn’t score. In the second half we continued trying because we need to do that work and that is my responsibility because also when we can change and have a second plan – it’s doing long balls and the second action – they were very strong and we didn’t earn balls in that planning also. The key was to impose and we are going to work for have and make better our build up with the goalkeeper, with the defenders and the midfielders and also, being well when we are doing long balls for breaking their lines with long ball for taking more chances. Because we tried and we didn’t have also chances with that second plan.”

37. For years we all said Wenger’s team can’t defend. His last five years became unbearable at times. But even in those piss poor times, Wenger’s players won three FA cups beating good teams along the way. Mind you, numerous times during those seasons we had injuries to key players. We also lost key players to transfers with all the attendant drama to go with it. Despite all the turmoil, we looked forward to games where it all came together like magic. Those moments became increasingly rare but they were still delivered by the team.

    When Emery came we all cheered for the change from the numbness of constant disappointment with end-term Wenger. I remember we all wanted a change as we were tired of the predictability of Wenger’s teams. Some change we got! We got a manager who made more changes to his team and tactics in one season than what Wenger did in his entire tenure. But we were happy just because we got out of the drudgery of same old same old. And for a while it worked too. We were winning and that meant we fans had hope of better times.

    The finish to last season really started to change fan’s opinion of Emery. If we were playing exciting brand of Football and losing, people would still be willing to give him a chance. But, he hasn’t managed to enthuse fans at that level as well. Emery has been handicapped by loss of Bellerin and Holding. But that can’t really be an excuse for poor attacking displays. All coaches have to deal with injuries. I remember at start of season Arsenal played pretty well at Chelsea last year but lost. Fans accepted the loss as they could see players were trying to play good Football and win the game. But over the course of the season, for reasons unknown to me Emery lost his desire to Attack. His constant need to do adjustments which seemed proactive initially started looking like reactive decisions of a coach who doesn’t know what he wanted from his team.

    When Arsenal hired Emery, he mentioned clearly that he wanted to make sure that the team plays attacking Football. He would rather win 5-4 than 1-0. That statement clearly shows his philosophy of not being too bothered with defensive stability. I think we just assumed he will improve our defence. He wanted the team to Attack. But obviously, given the players he has had and the system he wanted to implement, that did not work out all too well. Hence this constant tinkering.

    Now it is very difficult to figure out whether the issue is mentality or players being unsure of their roles in the system. I hope Emery can be bold in his attacking philosophy while trying to get his players to buy in to his vision. Otherwise, we are in for few more months of drama this year.

    1. great post. i’m willing to bet my house is the latter; the players are unsure of what emery wants them to do. it’s the downside of not having an identity associated with how you want to play.

       every couple of days, the players have to learn a new system rather than making slight changes to a system that they’re intimately familiar with. when you do that, so many things can go wrong. the manager can make a mistake, he can err in his instruction, he can be mis-interpreted, or the players can simply forget as there’s so much to learn in such a short time. do you realize the torreira was taking a shot from less than ten yards from goal right before the penalty was conceded? when arsenal are only up a single goal and the momentum has shifted that heavily in watford’s favor, why would he be so high? say what you want but elneny wouldn’t have been that high up the pitch in that situation. this is the downside to arsenal having so many young players in their midfield.

       blaming the arsenal collapse on their mentality is a lazy brit concept and is very subjective. what’s more likely is those players don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing from one game to the next because of emery’s management. that’s always been my position.

       like shard, i recognized xhaka telling leno to stop playing the ball short. maybe his failing to get open when playing goal kicks was in protest to emery’s tactic. i hope not, as that’s completely unacceptable. yesterday was strange because arsenal played so poorly and it wasn’t xhaka at fault. i think it’s why so many are finally coming out in protest against emery.

       i read somewhere that the 31 shots arsenal conceded yesterday was the most they’ve ever conceded in a premier league game…….and that was to the bottom team in the league. has anyone else heard that stat? if that’s true, emery has got to go soon.

       1. i also read that arsenal have conceded more shots than any other team in any of the top 5 professional european leagues.

       2. Iwobi came on the field last season as a sub, and was asking what formation we’re playing. The players are definitely confused.

          Tom Cleverley talked about our tactic of playing it out from the back, and how he was surprised we persisted with it. But whatever. For me, the interesting part was where he said Flores has come in and made a difference. He hasn’t bombarded them with information. Just defined some basics of how he wants them to play.

          Emery, in my mind, loves the tactical battles in theory, more than the actual football.

38. one person who might be happy is mustafi. imagine if that were mustafi doing what sokratis or david luiz.

39. Lots of passion on here today. I haven’t read completely through all the other comments but have a few observations:

    1. Any team starting Ozil, Ceballos, Luiz, and Xhaka should be absolutely dominating possession against Watford. I was excited to see Ceballos and Ozil together. Was.
    2. Lee Dixon was ripping our formation on the US broadcast from the beginning. We can’t concede the flanks so easily.
    3. Our predictability playing out of the back is…criminal. Incompetent. Players are not moving to help one another and we for some reason refuse to chip over a high press.
    4. Goal kicks are scoring opportunities for the opposition in youth soccer. Like U7. We look like a freaking U7 team on goal kicks.
    5. Xhaka says the team is playing scared because Emery manages scared.
    6. I can’t remember an Arsenal side being dominated by such a low level team. I started watching in 09-10.
    7. The team doesn’t feel cohesive when it moves the ball. Players don’t seem to be moving off ball enough for one another. Hard to confirm when watching on TV.
    8. Wenger has a system he would develop based on the talent he had. It wasn’t always the same system. But there was consistency. Everyone criticized the predictability but at least the players knew what to expect. As a result, the Wenger Arsenal has a pretty high floor because the system was typically pretty good but a lower ceiling because he wouldn’t adapt, IMO.
    9. Unai…doesn’t have it. The players are good enough to finish third or fourth. At this rate, we won’t.

40. One more thing. I LOLd a couple of time when Leno would touch the ball to Luiz on a goal kick bad Luiz would immediately crank it up the field. I do wonder if splitting the CBS so close to the keeper on GKs makes that space easier to mark. Seems like more of a spread might be good to loosen the marking up.

41. can anyone link me to the var rules please…..
    I have looked on the premier league website and found this.

    “It will not review the decision to award a corner instead of a goal-kick, even if the corner produces a goal.

    This is because the VAR will only check the attacking possession phase that led to the goal, and the starting point is limited to the immediate phase, in this instance the corner being taken.”
    “The VAR will not review incidents outside of the four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity”
    I cannot find anything to do with restarts. it seems that the only onevwho has seen this rule is Dermot Gallagher on Sky Sports.
    the only thing I can think of is 2 rules one is var cannot get involved iin goal kicks because normally they are not in a phase that leads directly to a goal.
    yet var should check a goal for clear and obvious errors and the former overides the latter.

42. I largely agree with the sentiment. Arsenal should be better than they have shown so far this season and the Watford game was tough to watch. I remember similar games under Wenger though, games where the team just didn’t have it and they knew it.

    Unai definitely had a bad day with his starting lineup and with his subs. There’s a tough line to walk between giving up on a project too early and potentially further undermining the season with a managerial transition, but you have to weigh the upside of a better managerial fit against that. We also have to ask who we could get to replace him. Is there a clearly better option just waiting to jump in? I hear Wenger wants to get back into management. ;))

    Overall I agree the direction things are trending is concerning.

    1. i have to take issue with your post, doc. first, even the worst wenger’s teams never put in a performance like that against the bottom club in the league, allowing more shots than arsenal ever have in the premier league.

       second, it wasn’t just his line up and subs. it was the players don’t know what he wants from them. he’s a nerd strategist but he’s dealing with a bunch of jocks. first, he’s got to provide clear direction. second, he’s got to “dumb down” his soccer nerd nuances, ensuring the players have clear direction.

       third, this trend is nothing new. it was plain to see early last season. the difference is wenger’s influence was still evident and the club were lucky to go on that unbeaten run earlier in the season. when that run ended, emery was able to reintroduce ozil which slightly stopped the rot. that was the only thing that saved his job. this year, he’s picked up where he left off at the end of last season and here we are. i’m not surprised at all.

43. Playing out from the back is a risky strategy because any mistake by any player can lead to the opposition getting the ball in a dangerous position. We can analyze how any individual player like Xhaka positions himself and or try to blame the manager but each and every situation is different and Emery can’t go out and kick the ball. The players have to be able to think on the fly and adapt instantly to what the opposition players are doing and avoid making poor judgements and stupid mistakes. I think the reality is we don’t have the skill or the mental nous in our GK, back 4 or midfield to be trying to play out from the back consistently. Ultimately I blame Emery if he is still trying to push a strategy which he does not have the right talent to execute.

    1. it’s the manager’s job to create a strategy based on what his players can do, not what he likes.

       unai got out-coached. watford decided to make a strategic change in the second half, choosing to engage arsenal closer to the arsenal goal, than sitting back and trying to repel the arsenal attack. the typical remedy is to play the ball long but, with no lacazette, arsenal don’t have a center forward who can, routinely, win and keep the ball high up the pitch (seems we’re always talking about center forwards). this is the value of a good center forward; how many goals the team scores because of his play, not how many goals he personally scores. it’s the point we made last week about the value of players like firmino, giroud, and others that you didn’t get.

       the sad part about it was that this strategy was very predictable, yet it appeared clear that arsenal hadn’t been prepared to deal with it. that’s a management failure. i would say it’s reasonable to expect every team to approach arsenal goal kicks this way, especially as long as lacazette is out.

44. Today Emery said he will analyze what went wrong and discuss it with the team.
    Today they will begin to prepare for Eintracht Frankfurt on Thursday.
    Eintracht Frankfurt will watch videos of what Arsenal has done this season and should be very confident that they can win on Thursday. I sure as hell am not confident that Emery has a f**king clue as to what went wrong with his system and we will lose on Thursday.
    Every player can make a costly individual error and I can get over that. I can forgive players like Sokratis making errors where the system and team structure are at fault. The team dangerously tries playing out from the back 3 times and gets nailed on their fourth try. Why is a non- ball playing CB like Sokratis being asked to play the ball out. That was lunacy. Teams know they can successfully close down Xhaka and Guendouzi because they are not Arteta and Cazorla. So my theme here is players who are not being put in positions to maximize their strengths by the manager. That’s a structure problem Emery. Yor playing a diamond in the midfield and that is leaving deficient our FBs naked and unadorned. With a nod to the movie the Sierra Madre: midfield, midfield, we don’t need no stinkin’ midfield. Thank you for that Unai. Except for when we scored 2 goals against the run of play, our midfield structure was non-existent.
    Here are the questions the Arsenal hierarchy have to ask themselves when Bellerin, Holding and Tierny are all playing: are we playing better, if no, then Emery out. How many EL games do we lose before Emery out? How many PL games do we lose before Emery out? How many games can we give away before Emery out? How many more points can we drop before Emery out?
    Off the top of my head, I would say that man for man, we do not match up with PSG talent-wise and that’s what allowed for relative success at PSG and not Emery’s tactics. We cannot wait for Emery to get all the players he wants to fit his system because that system didn’t work at PSG.
    I’m also an AC Milan supporter. I liked Allegri when he was at AC Milan. He had success there and I was sorry when he left. Maybe he would consider Arsenal. Maybe he would like the challenge of the PL. Maybe he would like the new management structure at Arsenal. For me, he would not even have to learn English (if he doesn’t know it already) to be acceptable. His teams attack and defend and they win something.

    1. https://www.caughtoffside.com/2019/09/17/arsenal-fans-want-allegri-to-replace-emery/

45. In theory Ceballos and Ozil were the most technically skilled players on the pitch. I understand they want to stay further forward and get involved in the attacking in the final 1/3 but if the team is struggling to move the ball out from the back then one or both should be dropping deeper to receive the ball and help to facilitate moving it forward.

    1. ceballos was dropping deeper. mesut was part of a front 3.

46. Still. Two days on. No public comment from Emery since post-match.
    Very un-Arsenal PR. Curtains drawn.

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