Lol.. well that wasn’t good!
The first half Arsenal tried that play it out from the back thing and only made 18 passes into their final third. At first, I kind of got what Emery was doing – he was playing deep to draw them out and create space for Auba and Pepe run into. And you know? A couple of errors from Adrian and Henderson and Arsenal probably should have been one or two goals up.
But it wasn’t good football. It was relying on errors football. And if you asked me before the game if I wanted Arsenal to sit that deep and try to play out from the back I would have said “no.” Because statistically, you are just going to get hammered playing like that against a team that loves the high press. He did it against Stokely so I don’t know why I thought he would do something different here.
It is weird, small-team mentality from Emery. We tried to get a smash and grab. I’ve been watching him for years and this is new for him. PSG didn’t play hemmed into their own half like that. I wonder how much longer the players are going to want to play in a system like that.
But on the flip side, Liverpool are champions of Europe. They are an amazingly well drilled team. They have three of the best attackers in football on their team, they have a midfield which presses so well, and the best center back pairing in the league. Oh yeah, and we are missing Tierney, Bellerin, and Holding. Once they come back and have a few weeks to get some game time and learn how to play in the Premier League it will be a very different Arsenal.
So, I don’t know what else I can expect Emery to do? I can’t personally come up with a plan other than maybe play a 451 and just try to clog everything but even that is exactly what Liverpool face all the time. So, we did a 442 and tried to hit them with long balls like Leicester.
In the second half Luiz gave away a penalty in like the 2nd minute. I don’t know what I expected from him. We’ve gone from fans, the coach, and the management team hounding Mustafi out of the club and replaced him with a guy who gives away that penalty. A blatant shirt pull like that. Just wow. I expected more from him. He seems so much smarter in all of his interviews. He also got destroyed for their third goal. Overall a not at all good game from him.
After that we played better but I can’t tell if that was because we made smart changes or if Liverpool invited us in so they could hit us on the counter. Which is exactly what they did.
They really looked in control of this match. We had more of the ball in the second half and ended the game almost level with them on touches, but we only completed 62 passes into their final third and 3 in their 18 yard box. They out-tackled Arsenal throughout the match and out-hustled us to the ball when we had it. Pepe showed us some sweet dribble moves but just couldn’t get past van Dijk – who had one of his best games today.
Torreira got the consolation goal after Emery finally decided to bring in Lacazette. Then they just shut up shop.
I’m not mad. I’m still not an Emery In guy but whatever, I think that what I think about Emery is irrelevant. Kroenke likes him and that’s that. He’s going to get the full year so I guess I might as well just be a supporter – like a jock strap. I’m not going to say that we were good today. We weren’t. But whatever, we aren’t a title contender, we are still fighting for 4th and all the teams around us in that race looked pretty bare today.
So, there you have it. Next up, Tottenham.
You did it! This one was served up on a plate, but you’ve managed a very measured response to what was a fairly significant show of shit.
But, yes. Beaten badly at Anfield, It won’t be the measure of our season anymore than many others. As you allude, 3/4 still look wide open. Status still quo.
Pretty much how I saw it too.
The only bright spot for me was Pepe showing glimpses of what he can do.
He won’t be facing the best CB in the world every week.
The shirt tugs in your own box with the advent of VAR are just beyond dumb.
If Matip doesn’t score from his header I think Sokratis gets penalized for a shirt pull on VVD.
If Pepe would have score form his chance than this would be a different match, but otherwise, it’s been better than in that last year match at Anfield.
Have a feeling that Arsenal is in a great position to finish in Champions League places this season.
I’m not a big fan of of this coach and his style of football. I am of the opinion that we can do better with the resources available to him. As far as I know, that is why he was let go at PSG and his tendency to use some players for public flogging (like ozil). It strikes me that deep down, he doesn’t have a footballing style and just makes it up as he goes along; this is not right for a big and ambitious club. So he wouldn’t be coaching at: PSG, Baca,… but at Arsenal? We’ll see.
Exact result I predicted.
As scoreline that accurately reflects where both teams are in respect of each other. No need to loose sweat. On to Spurs at home, one we need to win.
Nailed it, Tim! I don’t know how you managed not to say Emery was a garbage coach, but I admire the strength of your inner monologue filter!
Just a bit confused about this, though: you’re not happy because we played it out from the back…which is the opposite of a small team mentality. I wouldn’t call what we did today ‘smash and grab’ football, but hey-ho, different strokes.
Personally, I thought the tactics were brave, and I’m glad he did it at Anfield. It smarts to lose, but the idea is that we keep practicing and practicing. At least, that’s my hope. That Emery just persists with what he wants to do, and then we get better and better at it. Our season (and his job) depends on it.
Liverpool don’t lose games, much less at Anfield…and much less against an Arsenal that is a work in progress. So we move on. The viability of achieving our aims this season haven’t changed after 2W 1L, particularly when the L stands for Liverpool!
we used to lose games like that to man u when henry and db10 were playing.
equally we used to beat them as well.
we are closing and will close the gap on the top two this year.
I hated everything about that match today. Not a fan of parking the bus. Especially when we have no real experience or license to drive a bus. Brutal. AND I would be interested in your view on a midfield with both Xhaka and Ceballos in it. I don’t think we can afford both defensively.
Well, I’m not sure that we had too many other good options. Ha d Pepe taken that 1on1 in the first half, maybe things end up a little different. But it still would have been a smash and grab. We need Bellerin, Holding and Tierney in, and perhaps not Xhaka. But overall, the team needs more time together in competitive matches. With the amount of player turnover we’ve had, a trip to Pool early in the season was always going to be tough. Even City would have been easier.
We played like the small teams play us, only at no time did we look like we had a plan to create something from this game. There has got to be an end product from playing out from the back. Lacking a game plan or a system of creating goals wont get us top 4…we will also be found out by lesser teams….Pep took only half a game.
Ah, I see what you mean by ‘smash and grab’ here; I, too, associate that with smaller teams. I guess I don’t have a strong take on this idea as it relates to Arsenal today. I mean, every team in the league apart from City are a lesser light to Liverpool. On the other hand, there was a plan of attack; its execution, however, left something to be desired. I think you’ll see us try to play it out from the back (invite the press, and then play it into the space left in midfield for a counterattack, etc.) against all teams this season, big or small. No?
As others have suggested, we did play well for a fairly decent chunk of time in this game, and missed two excellent opportunities to score (Auba and Pepe). This isn’t to suggest that Liverpool didn’t outplay us on the whole, but I guess I just sort of expected that.
Just the one comment. Arsenal were dispossessed in our defensive third eight (8) times in the first half. The most in the past decade.
And for how much of that decade did we have a system in which the first phase was invariably playing it out from the back? I think you can see why we might be more prone now to being dispossessed at the back, and here we’re talking about one of the best pressing teams in Europe, so yeah, context matters. Unlike last season, though, I don’t want Emery to abandon it too soon out of conservatism or fear. Let’s stick with it. See if we can improve. Because all teams like to press now (Burnley did it to us relentlessly last weekend), and one of the best ways to deal with that if you have the right technicians is invite that pressure to expose the spaces behind. If we can better at this (and we do have a ball player in Luiz now), then I think Emery’s system can thrive. AMN’s passing was sloppy today, and Monreal is almost Lichtsteiner years now. I’m giving this a few months. We need Bellerin and Tierney, and Torreira to be fully fit.
Ceballos was dreadfully slow today. But I think Liverpool surprised him with how quickly they press and the lack of support around him. Like you say, it will probably get better.
Yeah that was exactly the game that would show if he is as good as Burnley made him look. Burnley tried to play the football that they are not good at, so he easily was able to escape the press(not sure Xhaka would be able to though), but Liverpool is a totally different beast. They press in groups and with the right level of intensity, so he looked slow and sloppy.
Hey dude, you seem to be quite an Emery supporter and that’s cool. There are many other stats I could choose but it’s only one game. Personally my broader concern is that many fans really aren’t on-board with Emery’s game-plans and look it’s always easy to pick holes after the event but yesterday’s set-up was asking for trouble. Additionally, when questioned Klopp responded that ‘Pool’s style was ‘intensity’. Hey our style could (should) be intensity. That’s 100% on the coach fifteen months into his tenure. Phrased another way it’s damn close to Klopp saying ‘we wanted it more’. That’s unacceptable by any reasonable standard. Any way, peace and love 😉
I’m feeling the love, Matt.
Like I say below, I’m not so much an “Emery supporter” as someone whose “benefit of the doubt” threshold is higher than some. But as I’ve also said on a number of occasions, Emery has to deliver this season, or he’s gone.
I’m optimistic he will get us in the top four, but I’m not expecting smooth sailing these next couple of months while we wait on our fullbacks –and others to integrate.
Liverpool are the champions of Europe, folks. And a significantly better team than we are.
Im not sure that anything we planned would have changed the outcome. That said, I said at the top of this thread that I wanted us to attack them. That means I’d rather have Laca on the pitch. All things considered (Pepe new, Liverpool strong, Laca statistically more inclined the score than Pepe), Laca would hurt them more than Pepe. Plus, he’s hardworking.
Didnt see the game… today was a good day to be genuinely busy, I said to myself at the start. And so it proved 🙂
But having now caught some highlights, not sure I go with the “but Mustafi” reaction to Luiz’s foul. It’s too early, too easy and too reactionary. Defenders tug shirts and get away with it 95% of the time. It’s the clown shoes, slipping, sliding pratfalls and clueless defending of Mustafi that we have a problem with. Not shirt tugging. Luiz is a signifiant upgrade on him.
CORR: **Top of the last thread, obviously.
Great point about Luiz at the end there.
Re: Lacazette: I’m hearing he’s still bothered by that ankle injury he suffered a few weeks ago? If so, that might explain why he didn’t start. But of course it could have been tactical, as you suggest.
Best game to have played a 4-5-1 in the absence of Lacazette, have 2 banks of 4 when defending and have the ability to stretch the attack. Kolasinac and Monreal could have played the left side with Pepe and AMN on the right, and keep a midfield trio without Xhaka.
Playing the 4-4-2 was a tacit admission that we can’t compete and following his presser where he said he’d rather not play Liverpool, I think the wrong energy was employed in preparation for this game.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
About the energy, here’s a quote from Emery a couple of days ago:
“Saturday is a massive match, an amazing opportunity for us to do something important,” Emery said. “Knowing it is going to be difficult, but really we can [say]: ‘We are here.’”
The whole ‘rather not Liverpool’ thing was a joke, and people have blown it up to make a psychoanalytical assessment of the team. Regardless, everyone, including the players and staff at Arsenal, know that Liverpool and City are the top teams in England right now. We have a lot of work to do to catch up to them. Prior to the game I thought Emery was fairly realistic about this while also asking his players to make a statement of intent.
That statement didn’t happen, but there were signs that it could have. I mean, Auba and Pepe put those chances away and we’re looking at a draw. Luiz doesn’t tug that shirt, and the scoreline doesn’t look quite so bad. Etc.
Obviously the scoreline this year was better, but I also saw this as a better performance than last season’s. But I’m probably in the minority here!
No doubt Luiz is an upgrade on Mustafi but not sure how you can justify shirt pulling in the box with VAR in effect.
And later he should’ve known not to get so tight on Sala having already picked up a cheap yellow.
This is the type of self inflicted wounds that will get you beat every time.
Pepe was the bright spot even though his finishing was poor.
I can see him becoming a fan favorite in no time.
You think VAR will stop defenders tugging shirts and hugging attackers at corners? Im not excusing the foul, but you make it more than it is. A foul in the box. He was correctly punished. Now what we want from the refs is consistency.
Yeah I don’t mind what Emery tried here: while Liverpool is much better a build up play compared to early Klopp era, they are still the most dangerous on the break. So by sitting deep and inviting Liverpool to have a go at them, Emery tried to take out their main weapon. But I think if there was one tweak he could have made is to go for 3 tops(Auba, Laca, Pepe) earlier(perhaps even half time). Throughout the first half it became obvious that our midfield cannot get us out of the press and most of the time defenders would just clear it. And having extra striker with Laca’s quality, might have provided better chance to hit them on the break, since our midfield was mostly useless for a build up. To play in a bit like Spuds last season. It is clear that we are not ready to play through their press yet: passing is too slow for that, in order to break through we need to put a string of 1 touch accurate forward passes, we haven’t done this in years.
Seconded, regarding no-comparison of Luiz– to ‘he who has seppekued not himself, but the club’. And, over many seasons. Luiz has a long way to go before he even moves the needle on the Mustafi Meter.
There were opportunities. Not inclined to think we deserved them. Of the errors littered throughout the match on-pitch? The more egregious ones were those formed in Emery’s mind. He chose tactics allowing Pool to attack relentlessly. At half– decided more of the same was just fine. Laca and Torriera on at 46′? I might have applauded. On at 80′? I threw my arms up and pirouetted. Can’t say I was fooled being down 1-nil at half. Yet we sallied-forth– for a further 35-minutes.
To reprise– I didn’t expect 3pts. But did expect Arsenal might play more evenly– than the effort produced.
I only watched the first half. Twice Pépé shot almost straight at Adrian. He will improve if / when he gains confidence. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
How did Southampton play Liverpool? I didn’t watch that game, but they seemed to have run Liverpool close, even if it took a keeper error. Which is the thing. We should be peppering Adrian’s goal with shots from our capable attackers. Not play like Burnley play us. It was never going to work. We’d probably have lost no matter what, but at least we could have had some fun.
Not sure how this should count as progress. Playing out from the back doesn’t mean hit a hail mary for the strikers. But we’re chameleons, at least till season’s end. So whatever.
Adrian is a good shot stopper.
It’s his ball playing that highly suspect, but in order to exploit that we would’ve had to high press them and open ourselves up.
I’m not sure that would’ve been a better option.
Southampton played them tough but Liverpool are a different proposition at Anfield.
Also, I think Arsenal players have by now developed the Anfield PTSD from all the recent drubbings.
Confidence is a weird thing. Setting up to get some shots and test the keeper after he’s made a mistake would be a good thing to do. It would be a good thing to do regardless, based both on our own strength and a possible weakness in their team.
That doesn’t mean I think it’s easy. I don’t have the answers. I just know this ain’t it chief.
Under most circumstances, I normally feel Emery gets blamed unfairly whenever we have a bad result or the football isn’t pleasing to the eye however I was disappointed with our approach today. I thought we finally had the personnel to play a proper 4-3-3 and go toe to toe with Pool today but we were too narrow and had no control over the game whatsoever. I stopped watching after the third one went in but it must be said that despite being completely outplayed during the 65 minutes of football that I watched, all the goals we conceded were completely avoidable if only our defenders showed a little more awareness of the situation. I didn’t see Pool carve open our defense like they did last season at Anfield or even create that many clear cut chances. I guess that’s scant consolation but hey, they only lost one game last year and are CL winners while we are still very much a work in process. We move on.
I doubt Kroenke likes Emery.
The difference between PSG and Arsenal are the injuries to key players.
Mentioned it briefly on twitter and I will say it again, Emery messes his tactics against big teams. Against Barca in his first season at PSG, and against Real Madrid in the second season.
Though you could make a case for his lack of squad players, his selection was appalling. His game plan was obsolete and it didn’t make sense.
Why play Aubameyang instead of Lacazette as Striker? In reality Auba requires more chances to score so why deplete the attack?Why abandon the 4-3-3?
Now I don’t look forward to the NLD. Matter of fact I tuned out when I saw Xhaka in the starting lineup, and a 4-4-2 formation.
Is this parody?
It isn’t.
It is.
https://arseblog.com/2019/08/liverpool-3-1-arsenal-no-shame-in-anfield-defeat-but-questions-can-be-asked-of-gunners-gameplan/
And
https://www.gunnerstown.com/arsenal/2019/08/25/liverpool-3-1-arsenal-the-game-of-7-truths-the-hidden-lessons-in-yesterdays-loss/
Well I didn’t take time to explain my pov in detail, but read the posts above.
You can google what Julian Draxler had to say about their UEFA champions league exit and the coach at the time Unai Emery.
Your opinion neither validates nor negates my opinion. I see things the way I do and you do differently, but read through both blogs and find the wisdom inherent.
I think Andrew Mangan at Arseblog is one the most sane public commenters on Arsenal in the world, so I put a lot of stock in his opinion. I don’t always agree on every point he makes, but, as he says in the post you linked to, we all have our own takes, and that’s his.
As for his post validating yours, I’m not sure it does. You said Emery did not have a plan (I suppose this is what “obsolete” mean?) or that it “didn’t make sense.” Arseblog makes it clear what the plan was (I provide a version of the same elsewhere in this thread): be narrow, cut off routes through and crowd the middle, and force the opposition to rely on crosses.
The problem wasn’t the plan, necessarily (or else, it’s easy to criticize it in hindsight, isn’t it?), but the poor execution of it, the mistakes, and, importantly, the quality of opposition means that they can hurt from anywhere.
As Andrew says (and this made me laugh):
“The logic was to deny Liverpool space centrally where they can really, really hurt you, and to that extent it worked and we handed them the wings where they can only really hurt you.”
Agreed.
well…….good for you, tim. however, i’m not biting my tongue. i said in the previous thread if arsenal fail to play well, it would likely be more down to emery than the players or the opposition. a 4-3-1-2? how is that going to stop their fullbacks? commit to either a 4-4-2 to defend deep and counter or a 4-3-3 to minimize the likelihood of their fullbacks being so effective. give your team a chance! once arsenal went to a front 3, which is the way i believe they should have begun, only then did they begin to slightly compete.
david luiz gave up two goals. if that were mustafi…
arsenal needed a defender so i appreciated arsenal signing someone but i never felt the david luiz excitement most 7am’ers did. like i said earlier this month, i would have preferred arsenal buy someone who was better than koscielny but we have david luiz. all in all, it wasn’t really bad business but only time will tell if it was good business.
pepe missed a 1v1 with the keeper. if that were iwobi…
i was disappointed but it happens sometimes. maybe i should temper my expectations; he only scored 13 goals from open play in ligue 1 last year. what does that translate to in the premier league? we’ll see.
all in all, i wasn’t really upset about the result. liverpool are a good team. what was disappointing was the performance. arsenal are stacked with players who like to play football, yet emery has sent them out to play what looked like anti-football. players don’t come to arsenal to play football like that. the boss has to utilize his resources better. sure, bergkamp and henry lost games against liverpool but at least they played. emery didn’t let these boys play. let the players play! let the fans be entertained! make people want to watch arsenal football! give your team a chance to win! fill those empty seats at the emirates!
I find it strange when people admit on the one hand that Liverpool are the better team, and on the other get angry when we don’t go to Anfield and play jazz. This isn’t 2004. We put on Charlie Parker and it’s a scoreline that will sap all that is human from the players.
The narrowing of the back line is not a bad strategy in and of itself. Lots of teams do this to close off the space in the middle, etc (and it’s easier to play it out from the back). Keeping the ball away from Firmino was key. I remember when Wenger was in charge, most managers just let us have the flanks all day long, knowing we’d spend the majority of the match passing it aimlessly around the 18-yard box trying to break down a narrow and compact defense. Entertaining? Hardly. That was late-Wenger Arsenal to a T.
You cite the transition to the front three as the reason we got back in the game. I’d disagree on the connection. Liverpool were on autopilot those last ten minutes. The contest was finished. And by the way, there were moments in the first half when that starting formation looked a smart choice.
Like I say above, hindsight is a wonderful thing. You had made up your mind long ago that any result other than a win today (against Liverpool!) would be Emery’s fault. Come on, man!
I struggle to understand people having a go at Pepe for missing 1v1 and bringing iwobi into this somehow. Iwobi would not be able to make 1v2 situation into 1v1 with their goalie. I enjoyed how easily Pepe beat Robertson and Henderson before that. Finish was timid I agree, but I prefer to focus on positives and that move that he created all by himself, deserved to be seen as one.
Sure , Arsenal are stocked with players who like to play football but also who make a lot of simple mistakes.
Guen, who I thought had a good game , at one point headed a rebound blindly right back to a Pool player in the middle of our pen area, when he easily could’ve controlled it and shepherd the ball out wide.
Liverpool players don’t make these mistakes.
I think I get what you’re saying but trying to go toe to toe with this Liverpool side at Anfield could’ve easily turned into Wenger’s 1000 game at the Bridge.
right on. guendouzi does make mistakes but he’s only 12 years old. my point is and has always been the arsenal manager is a problem. liverpool, man for man (apart from vvd), aren’t better than arsenal. what they are is better coached. arsenal got out-coached, hence, out-played today. that’s the real shame. playing a 4-3-3 doesn’t make arsenal much less resilient than a 4-3-1-2 but it also makes liverpool far less of a threat in the wide areas.
I agree Klopp is the better coach but if you think our full backs are a match for Arnold and Robertson then I have to question your sanity.
AMN is no RB and Monreal’s legs have gone.
Our midfield consisted of two 20 year olds, a loanee who’s been with the club a month, and Xhaka.
Show me a club that can go toe to toe with Liverpool fielding this kind of midfield.
Klopp is better, but it took him a few seasons to fully get this team playing like European champions. It’s why I like the idea of giving Emery the time and players he wants for more than just a year. Klopp finished fourth in his second season. If Emery does the same in his second season, would you keep him and see where it goes? It’s not just about getting new players but having the time available to integrate them and inculcate automatism when it comes to system.
The scattergun approach to hiring a new manager after one or two years has not led to stability at United or Chelsea. Perhaps this is instructive.
In any case, we wait and see. This is a big season for Emery. Top four or bust.
Would you keep him if he improves total points tally but misses out on top four?
Difference is Klopp was renowned for playing beautiful attacking football, we all used to purr over his Dortmund team.
Emery has never played a brand or style of football that has got everyone in football excited. So wouldn’t hold my breath he could make us into title challengers.
I asked you first, Tom. But no, he should go if we miss out on top four, no matter the points tally.
You think VAR will stop defenders tugging shirts at corners?
Yes, the ones who aren’t complete knuckleheads.
It’s instinct formed by habit over years and years of doing this with little consequence, and we’re only three weeks into VAR. This has nothing to do with David Luiz being a knucklebrain or a bad defender.
This was as blatant a shirt pull as I’ve ever seen in a penalty box.
Lee Dixon called it “stupid “on air and I totally agree.
You didn’t need VAR to spot that one.
Dixon’s commentary was an embarrassment to television. Seriously.
Even without VAR most refs would have seen that. Don’t think the ref even went to VAR, he just instantly pointed to the spot. That’s how blatant and lazy it was. 9/10 that’s a penalty in the premier league era
It was pretty friggin naive to play Guendouzi, Willock and Ceballos against Liverpool on the road. Torreira made a pretty solid difference when he came in. Willock was MIA. If the idea was to play on the counter, then Ozil is a one pass counter attack. And you need Lacazette to hold the ball.
Emery is poor.
Did Torreira make a difference because the game was over as a contest? Possibly. Regardless, all things are possible in hindsight, aren’t they? Torreira is not match fit.
A lot of respectable commenters were hoping Emery would be brave enough to start Guendouzi, Willock, and Ceballos after their stellar performance against Burnley. He’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.
So yeah, like said. Hindsight.
Why has the word ‘minnow’ gone from footballing parlance? Anyway, that’s how we played.
It’s all well and good pointing to how great Liverpool are, but we didn’t even make them play that well. Pepe might have got something from their mistake, Auba could have lobbed it in from distance. But we are now small time.
We play like we are minnows because the coach sets us up to be minnows. And I am not entertained. Ultimately, that’s all it comes down to.
I would be able to deal with it if I could see a vision, and commitment to make it work. So far, all we’ve got are excuses as to why this perfect vision has been impossible to execute. Some people said after Burnley that this is how we’ll play. We passed it around in our half for a bit until Liverpool dropped deeper. Then we passed it around in our half some more. I don’t think this qualifies as a viable gameplan, It’s not that the players failed to pass it further. It’s that we were set up to guard against failure rather than to succeed. That’s how it appears to me anyway.
Emery is getting by on player’s talents instead of enhancing/accentuating them. We might make top 4. We ought to have made it last season too. I think we’ll win the Europa. But we won’t get anywhere with Emery as our coach.
The word ‘minnow’ has gone from parlance because it’s as tired as your lazy-a** understanding of how Emery wants the team to play and how it might or might not work expectations-wise against the champions of Europe.
Anybody and their dog could have predicted how you’d react to the first loss of the season (Emery!!!!) because you’ve been monotone on this issue for months.
Is Emery “getting by” on talents? Wow. I’d like an explanation of the distinction between individual talent and collective system. Like, if we’re getting by on individual talent but he’s not accentuating it, how do you make the call that individual talents haven’t been accentuated as a result of playing for Emery? Would love to hear you dissect individual-collective for me, because it seems all you do is blame Emery for failings and praise individuals for achievements…only when the distinction suits.
Cheers.
Why would you want more lazy a** tired analysis Bun. Not got anything better to do in life? Or are you as bored of the Arsenal games as I am?
Anybody and their dog could predict your reaction too. I get it. Loyalty and time and reasonableness and all that. Wonder where it goes for an opposite view though? How about you enlighten me as to Emery’s grand vision indecipherable to us lesser mortals, and why 14 months down the line he’s still needing your superior football knowledge and browbeating skills to run interference for him?
‘First loss of the season’ as if it exists in isolation from last season’s collapse, or the oh so great victories against Newcastle and Burnley. And you pretend to be balanced and fair about this. That dead horse I’m beating gave its life for your snobbery. Stop playing the white knight.
You made an accusation, so go ahead: Distinguish for me individual vs. collective in Emery’s system.
My reaction has been clear all along: I will wait. I’m not judging Emery on his first season in charge of a squad that he largely inherited, and also not in the first three games of a season in which he seems to have finally gotten the kinds of players he wants.
You, on the other hand, decided long ago how you’d judge the manager, completely ignoring context in his first year in charge.
And…you really don’t know how Emery prefers the team to play? Really? Did you not watch pre-season? Did you not watch Newcastle, Burnley, and Liverpool? I think you do know, but you just don’t like it. I’ve also described it above, and many others have done so also. Why this is a mystery to you is strange.
But more to the point of your comment above, enlighten us about the distinction between individual talent and system that you feel so sure defines the uselessness of Emery and the reliance on talent.
I look forward to it.
I think you do know, but you won’t admit it. See how that goes.
As for motivations, you love to talk smack about others but how about yours. You won’t judge the first season at all? That’s not reasonable, you just like to act like it is. You want to pretend I ignore the context of the first season, because you can’t accept that someone else may consider it and reach a different conclusion. Why? Because you love tilting at windmills.
I’m not going to jump to oblige just because you tell me to. If you don’t like it, you go jump. There’s plenty other windmills for someone like you, Don.
You said that Emery is “getting by” on individual talents.
It’s funny that you made that claim, isn’t it, Shard? In two responses so far you didn’t once address the problem. Namely (again): if we’re getting by on individual talent but Emery’s not accentuating it, how do you make the call that individual talents haven’t been accentuated as a result of playing for Emery?
Collective vs. individual conundrum, Shard. You raised it. If I was a snob I’d pretend to understand what you’re talking about. So make it clear to me, ‘kay? I mean, your criticism of Emery is as predictable as ever, but since you bring up individual talent as a stick to beat him with, I’m sure you, as someone who takes ideas seriously, would like to explain the distinction.
Yes, I’m quite sure you’d prefer not to “jump to oblige” my challenge to your comment. In the absence of any ability to clarify the distinction between individual and system, or “getting by” and “having an impact,” it suits to deflect.
No need to jump, Shard. You’ve said it all by saying nothing.
Sure. Whatever you say, Bun Shapiro.
Please address the arguments without resorting to name calling.
Thanks, everyone.
Disciplined, evenly toned, patient, understanding, piece Tim.
This manager complicates to deceive.
Defeatist approach, cowardly choice of tactics deployed and
personnel used. System? Personality? Tactical nuance? Style?
Fourth place doubtful with this manager.
Time for player revolt by Xmas. PLEASE.
Or: It is never too soon to speak truth based on tangible evidence.
Why give someone an(other) entire season to attempt something they
patiently do not have the competency for. Cut our losses and trust the
management team to find us the manager to capitalize on the stronger
team they provided us with this season. Start looking now.
Man, that was painful to watch…looks like another season of selective viewing to maintain sanity…cheers folks
higher up, some kid accused me of having a go at pepe for missing the 1v1. i didn’t have a go at pepe for missing a 1v1. i clearly said that it happens. i also said it was a reminder that he only scored 13 goal from open play last season (in ligue 1) and the quality of that finish may have been a reason why. likewise, i suggested that if iwobi had missed that chance, the knives would have been out but that’s not new either.
when the pepe-in and iwobi-out transfers happened, i said that i thought zaha was clearly better than pepe but saw no evidence that pepe was better than iwobi. knowing i could be wrong, i suggested we continue to monitor that situation. my post is continued monitoring of pepe’s productivity to iwobi’s.
similarly, i compared david luiz to koscielny and mustafi, suggesting that koscielny is better and there’s no evidence that david luiz is better than mustafi. if mustafi had done what luiz did yesterday, like iwobi above, the knives would have been out.
arsenal paid twice as much for david luiz as we got for koscielny. arsenal paid twice as much for pepe as we might get for iwobi. last summer, arsenal paid twice as much for torreira as we got for coquelin. sorry, but i haven’t seen any evidence that suggests those signings are even as good as the players they’re replacing, let alone twice as good as the transfer fees suggest. except for torreira, it’s still early. we’ll see.
bun, we get it. you’re the ultimate emery apologist, willing to blindly give him more time when it’s clear he can’t make arsenal better. you’re willing to wipe his backside with your t-shirt based on some devotion to a fake process; give him two years, you say. i say nuts!
to most, his approach suggests he’s got a small-club mentality. he’s fooled a few people by winning the europa league a few times. he hit the lottery coaching at clubs like psg and arsenal but his teams don’t play good football based on his strategic approach and nothing we’ve seen over the past 16 months suggests he’s improving arsenal. i didn’t expect him to win or lose yesterday. i hoped arsenal would play against a top team as if they were also a top team instead of playing what wenger referred to as cowardly anti-football.
come on, bun. it’s plain to see that there is no real process to what emery’s doing. he’s winging it, hoping the talent in the side can nick him a result while setting the team out hoping to not get embarrassed. you can’t win based, exclusively, on hope. it’s clear that he can’t improve on what was wenger’s worst arsenal. it doesn’t take all night to recognize that it’s dark outside.
I understand why some would perceive me as an Emery apologist, but truthfully, the motivation behind my comments have more to do with the reactionary nature of football these days. I haven’t liked a lot of what I’ve seen from Emery’s Arsenal this past year, though I’ve also seen performances I did like.
My point, generally, is that you can’t demand a coach to come in with the kind of squad we had last season and expect instant consistency of results and performances. And I get further worried when I see fans just waiting to pounce on him the minute we drop points… My worry only increases when that reaction follows a game against the European champions at home where (as Arseblog pointed out today) they haven’t lost in two years.
“My point, generally, is that you can’t demand a coach to come in with the kind of squad we had last season and expect instant consistency of results and performances.”
You’re right about results. What can take time to develop are the results. What shouldn’t take time to develop is the identity, the style of football.
And actually, you know what? Emery has changed Arsenal’s identity and it’s really ugly football in almost every regard. Don’t @ me with your “Jazz Football” thing. It’s a cute riposte for the plebes but I don’t want Wenger back. Emery likes teams to come all over the back line. He invites teams to get on top of his defense and pound his box.
Silliness aside, his teams don’t control games. They don’t control the midfield. I don’t mind losing to Liverpool and Man City but when Burnley and Crystal Palace and little teams are able to dictate the game, that’s when there’s a problem. That’s what people are actually upset about but seem to be unable to just say outright.
And statistically, it’s inarguable: if we continue to play football this way, we will not finish top four. And this is the season, dude. If we don’t make top four this year, with Chelsea, Tottenham, and Man Unit all in utter disarray it could be a long time before we are able to get back into the top four.
I really hope you’re right and Bellerin is going to ride in on his halo and save this team from this hideous football. But you know, I was looking at the players yesterday and frankly I think a lot of them are fed up with Emery. I’m concerned that Tottenham will be the breaking point.
Fortunately, Spurs look like a team in some trouble as well. So, maybe Emery will get a reprieve before there’s one of those famous “clear the air” meetings or the owners start talking about how much faith they have in him.
I am curious about something: when do you see the miracle happening at Arsenal? When will we start playing good football? Or is it just/mostly results? And more importantly, what will the miracle look like? What football will we start to play that will be so glorious that I will even be like “oops I was wrong”? What will that football look like under Emery? Which performances would you like to see repeated and can we repeat them week in and week out?
bun, we get it. you’re the ultimate emery apologist, willing to blindly give him more time when it’s clear he can’t make arsenal better. you’re willing to wipe his backside with your t-shirt based on some devotion to a fake process; give him two years, you say. i say nuts!
Bun is on record now to let Emery go if he fails to secure top four no questions asked. Hardly an Emery apologist.
Giving any manager two seasons is also hardly being slow to react unless they totally fail in their first season.
If anyone is a bit agenda driven and reactionary it’s probably you Josh.
“Liverpool are a good team” , really?
I wonder what constitutes a very good team in your opinion then.
But no agenda right?
ONLY 13 goals from open play, Josh said, as if that is some kind of indictment of a winger.
And he bleats incessantly about transfer costs, concluding, on the basis of a single full appearance by Pepe, that he was not worth the transfer fee.
Josh is a bit too trigger-reactionary sometimes, and it leads to some premature and even outright bad takes.
An example of Josh’s bad arguments is his comment about Torreira, a 23 year old established international with Uruguay, whom we bought at the age of 22 for 26 million in today’s market, who has scored goals against Spurs and Liverpool, and who (like Pepe) adds significantly to our dead ball options. Man, Arsenal even get bashed for paying 8m for 32 year old, experienced, prem-tested defender who has won many honours. Why? Becaause we only got 5m for Kosc, who is a year older in age, but 3 years older in wear and tear.
Josh’s bashing of everything Arsenal has done in the market is laughable. No, Bunburyist is not an apologist… he strikes me as a realist.
Shard, I agree with you that we played against Liverpool with a small club mentality. We gave them exxcessive respect with out selections. As for the misses by Auba and Pepe, sometimes in football you get what you didnt deserve. How many times has Arsenal been hurt — goals and even results-wise — by teams we’ve outplayed.
By the way, may need to host a beer summit between you and Bun (or an ice cream summit, given his oft-stated preference). The tiff is way too tiffy now…
Of courses we played like a small team away to Liverpool.
Barca shipped 4 there with the best player in the world and.
Tim, how about hosting an annual 7amkickoff Poster Ice Cream Wrestling Match?
I like beer and ice cream…
Here’s something to make us all happy… Spurs spursed it up at home.
spuds lose so no more damage to our top 4 trophy.
biggie next week..
It is a big one next weekend. We can all understand or rationalize losing at Anfield, but if the team want to show they’re up for a top four fight, we have to beat Spurs.
If we lose, I promise all of you that I will absolutely lose my sh*t. Fair?
Man, we have a tricky opening fixture list. Spurs coming up, Watford away, United away… Although, weirdly, I’d put Watford as the trickiest of the lot. Is that weird? Maybe I’m just basking in the warm glow of a Spurs loss today.
Sorry, I don’t think that next week’s is a pivotal game in determining the outcome of the race. It’s too early. We had zero points after 2 games last year, and but for a late season collapse, whould have finished 3rd. All NLDs are big, but I dont see this one as pivotal.
I want to see us lay down a marker for the future, though. Play with authority and ambition against the hun at home, and beat them.
any game against a top six side is pivotal they are all six pointers.
bun, i appreciate your defense of emery to reactionary responses from fans but my responses are far from reactionary. i didn’t expect emery to come in and do miracles last season but, after 16 months, i did expect to see clear direction and purpose to the way that arsenal were going to play and compete for the championship. win, lose, draw, top 4, no top 4; none of that matters to me, only the direction towards the championship. can you, honestly, say you see direction and purpose to arsenal’s play? fyi, i didn’t say a negative word about emery until the end of last season when it appeared clear to me that he provided no direction. is a year really reactionary? if so, i’m guilty.
tom, it’s clear that i don’t fancy emery. what’s the agenda?
claudeivan, i didn’t lambast pepe because of his miss. i simply asked how bad it would have been if iwobi had missed that. likewise, i didn’t present his lack of goals from open play in france as an indictment. it was to highlight that he may not be as clinical a finisher that we hope for and we may need to curb our expectations. even lacazette, who’s far more clinical and consistently scored more goals than pepe goals in only one season last year have seen his numbers diminished in the premier league.
in fact, the only players i’ve bashed on this site in the past 5 years was ramsey because of his approach play and xhaka for his lack of awareness. only a fool would lambast a young player on his premier league debut away at the european champions. you’ve known me long enough to know i’m no fool. i’ve known you long enough to know you can read simple english. don’t take a fragment of what i’ve said and try to make an argument without nuance. please use context of the entire statement.
i do agree, you’re spot on when you declare i bleat incessantly about transfers. however, it’s nota bout the money. it’s about do these guys make arsenal that much better for the money spent. £35 million for xhaka, has he made arsenal that much better? how about the £35 million for mustafi? £26 million for torreira, is he an upgrade to coquelin? let’s pretend he is. is he twice as good as coquelin? is pepe really better than iwobi? if so, is he twice as good? is david luiz better than mustafi? i’ve simply asked questions that i thought were legit but i don’t know. however, time always tells. its why i end many of my posts with the words “we’ll see”.
btw, i could care less about what spurs are doing. i only care about what arsenal are doing; what spurs eats doesn’t make arsenal poop. the performance claude says he wanted to see from arsenal next weekend is the performance i wanted to see from arsenal yesterday. after all, tottenham are not just arsenal’s biggest rival, they are beaten finalist in the european final against liverpool in june so they’re also a good team. we’ll see how the manager approaches this game.
To be fair, I did want to see us give it a go against Liverpool as well. Seems that the decision to bench Lacazette surprised everyone. Sure he shored up the midfield, but we took Ceballos out of his position of maximum effectiveness in order to do so.
Tom, it’s clear I don’t like Emery, what’s the agenda?
Hm, I don’t know Josh, maybe this:
“Liverpool, man for man (apart from vvd), aren’t better than arsenal. what they are is better coached. arsenal got out-coached, hence, out-played today. “
Arsenal market value- 770m
Liverpool market value-1.2b according to transfermarkt………….which of course isn’t exact science but if these guys are off by half a billion in their evaluations then maybe they should just fold shop.
Of course you could make a case that Klopp is responsible for some of that difference in valuation and you wouldn’t be totally wrong.
Arnold and Robertson alone are worth 150m and one came cheap while the other was product of Pools academy, but Klopp did have more than one season
( three) to make them into the players that they are today.
You clearly know your football so when you say both clubs are on even footing talent wise( apart from VVD) , it can only be agenda driven.
Arsenal are closer to Leicester City and Everton talent-wise than Liverpool right now.
I don’t care if Emery gets the boot or stays and I’m not impressed by him much , but I’m not gonna go around and big up or put down this Arsenal squad because it suits my argument.
Fellas, I just listened to the Arsecast Extra on this game. It captures perfectly the divergence of opinion here and elsewhere. Listen to it through to the end. It’s helped me appreciate both sides of this, though you won’t be surprised to know that I’m on James’ side on this. His response regarding Newcastle’s win vs Spurs was, I thought, spot on with respect to how we should approach games away from home against the likes of Liverpool and City.
Or I should have said, “with respect to why an admiration for Newcastle’s win v Spurs might be instructive about criticism about our approach vs. Liverpool.”
Sorry, I don’t listen to Arsenal pods. Can you recap the points?
Are we really going to sell Monreal? I appreciate his advancing age, but this is a move that weakens us. Both on the field, and you’d think of it. It is a big show of faith in Tierney though. And there’s that young LB we got from Barcelona some years ago. Joel Lopez? So we should be fine in the medium to long term.
Josh’s point about Pepe is good. But I guess I didn’t think of him as a great goalscorer, as much as a great attacking threat. If given the opportunity to grow, Pepe will be a success with us. I still regret that we sold Iwobi at that price, and think Arsenal will too.
yeah, i first heard about the sociedad interest in monreal during emery’s post-match press conference. fast forward to today and it looks like he’s leaving. this move may significantly weakens arsenal’s chances of returning to the champions league places this term.
i appreciate your support with what i actually said about pepe and not what i was accused of implying on yesterday. seriously, i hope pepe does well and breaks all of th14’s goal scoring records. however, based on what i’ve seen of him, i don’t think he will. sure, his dribbles on saturday were cute but we watched a homegrown player do that plenty of times last season. bottom line, i don’t think pepe is much better than iwobi; certainly not for £72 million. with that, i don’t know his game as well as i know iwobi’s. i truly hope i’m wrong. we’ll see how his production in france translates to the premier league.
i was even more unimpressed with the david luiz deal. what he did on saturday is exactly what i expected from him. why not give leno a chance to make a save from a bad angle? arsenal already has a guy who is good at tomfoolery. now, they’ve spent £8 million on a guy with more experience at tomfoolery.
you’re probably right. time will tell.
Enjoyed the lively banter here. I think listening to Arsecast, as Bun suggested, is an excellent idea. They do a good job of crystalizing the opposing camps as it relates to the Liverpool match and Emery.
It boils down to this: Do you believe that we should play an attacking, expansive football – one that is truly “the beautiful game?” If so, then Emery’s choice to sit back, pack the box and play on the counter represents something of an affront. It is what we despise about small-minded clubs that play this way against us. It is ugly, negative, even cynical football that’s awful to watch. Playing this way is a capitulation – we are recognizing we are inferior to our opponent (whether or not it’s true), and we should not have that mentality as Arsenal. We should play like a top-tier club, with a clear, defined style, even if we take a lot of lumps on the way. Emery’s chameleon approach is not good football, and it’s not worthy of Arsenal.
The other camp has a more pragmatic stance. We are not as good as Liverpool. We don’t have the personnel to keep up with their fullbacks. We are most vulnerable when letting teams like Liverpool attack in transition, allowing their forwards to play in space and slice open our suspect back 4. Especially at Anfield, playing attacking football is suicide. Play a style that negates their strength. Let them hit crosses from 30 yards out all day. Win possession and attack behind their FB’s with the pace of Auba and Pepe. Ugly can get you points, and you need to play that way against better teams.
I totally understand both camps. One more purist/idealist, the other more pragmatic/defeatist.
I see Emery as a transitional manager. Like Bun, I’m not thrilled with him. I, do however believe that we are not going to beat Liverpool with attacking, expansive football at Anfield with our current squad. One could argue the tactics were spot on yesterday. Liverpool were frustrated and we were getting the better chances in the first 35 minutes. It wasn’t pretty, we weren’t going toe-to-toe with them. We had a small club mentality. But Auba and Pepe both got great chances that, had they converted, would have put us in great position to get points. Did Emery wait too long to make subs? Almost certaintly. Did our players take their chances? No. Did we make big mistakes defensively? Yes. Did he put us in position to get points at Anfield? Absolutely.
If we were to play that same style against, say, Crystal Palace, I would be very upset, as I was at the end of last season when we were disastrous. Emery’s pragmatism limits his ceiling and limits his floor. We aren’t going to play brilliant football under him on many occasions. But I still think he can get us to the CL. Giving up on him now is premature, but by mid-season, we need to be playing better and more consistently.
Third camp: you aren’t going to win too many games letting Liverpool jizz all over you, I can guarantee this statistically. It’s basically luck if you smash and grab a point from them. Not only that but the players hate it when they have to play ugly, minor-team football, and then they lose. Better to try to play some actual attacking football and lose 3-1 than just let Liverpool have their way
Good point – the players don’t like it. Saw Auba’s insta post wondering why Laca didn’t start.
If we play attacking football and lose 3-1, then everyone says what an unimaginative, terrible tactical approach it is and we are no better than under the final days of Wenger. The chances of winning at Anfield are very very slim for Arsenal this year – or anyone else for that matter. Expansive attacking football that allows Robertson and AA in behind our FB’s gives us zero chance. Call me Lloyd Christmas, but our defensive approach made me think, “So you’re telling me there’s a chance.”
Decent finishing and 1 less Luiz shirt tug and we might have pulled it off.