After receiving a lifetime achievement award at the Laureus 2019 ceremony Arsene Wenger gave another interview and in his usual candid way, spoke about a variety of topics from Africa to Ramsey and of course about Ozil. Here is the transcript:
Arsene, lifetime achievement. It feels like a time to look back on all of these.. achievements. Everyone always asks you what you’re doing next.
It looks always like it’s all over! But what is good is lifetime achievement, there are still some things to do, hopefully, in front of me. And that I don’t look too much behind me. I’m rather proud to have defended the value I espoused in sport and not to have betrayed what I think is important in our sport.
Favorite player who played under you?
The first time I came to England there were no successful foreign managers. And that first win (Premier League) I think I opened a little bit the door for other managers from foreign countries. Because then there was a belief that foreign managers could not be successful in England.
But what is remarkable and what I would like to add is that in life, when you love competition you take winning for granted and you think it’s normal. But I speak to people from all kind of sport and I make them talk. They only talk about the things they lost and could have won. And what is terrible in sport is that you live more with what you have not done. I speak to ski people and runners and I ask them “what is a race you could have won?” and they come out with it right away. And in football it’s a bit similar.
Were you surprised by the nutrition when you came to England?
Yes, it was a surprise. I always thought of your intake like the petrol in a car. You try to give the best possible petrol to the players. It’s difficult to describe the society twenty years ago in England. Because the players, when I suppressed the Mars bars the players all chanted on the coach “we want our Mars bars”. Nobody would chant that anymore.
Maybe modern life has changed so much that for the players and the managers today they are overflowed with information – at the time that was not the case – today the players have too much information and even today the players to pick out the two or three pieces of information important for their success.
Will you ever stop watching football?
Honestly, no. I cannot switch off and I have to accept it. I somewhere got that virus, somewhere in my body and it will remain there. When I wake up in the morning my thinking is, what kind of game is on tonight? And that is my life.
Cesc Fabregas called you his mentor tonight, I know you’ve mentored hundreds or probably thousands of young footballers. How important is it for young people in general to have a mentor? And did you have a mentor of your own?
Look, I believe successful lives are always a meeting between people who have an attitude, a desire, and somebody who believes in them and gives them a chance. In ANY job, you alone, you do nothing. And I believe as well, in our job, you have self esteem and you have confidence. Self esteem is a little bit of an abstract idea you have of your value. But confidence is the capacity to go into action. But the action, to have that courage, you find that in the eyes of someone else. Of other people. You know that you are good but you need as well to find that belief, that confidence, in the people who are around you. We (managers and coaches) have that huge potential to influence people in their life in a positive way and unfortunately sometimes you don’t find the key for somebody. But sometimes it’s just.. I give you a concrete example, the position on the field is always to be adjusted to the psychological profile of the player. So sometimes just to change position makes a difference.
In the case of Cesc Fabregas it was so obvious that he had the perfect vision and that this guy can deliver the final ball that his position was easy to find.
What was the biggest surprise, getting the award or Jose Mourinho finally saying something really nice about you?
That’s a very good question. It was a surprise, yes, because we had some good fights and time appeases it always. The surprise that I got awarded was even bigger because usually lifetime achievement is for Pele, Maradona, or Beckenbauer, and tonight is a little player from a village so.. but I represent coaches and it’s good as well that coaches are rewarded in our game.
Arsene, we saw France being honored tonight for winning the World Cup. Africa’s probably underperformed at the World Cup, African teams generally. Um..and uh.. coaches like yourself would you be interested in going into Africa to try and allow them to get to that next step at the world level?
No, I’m, I made a statement after the final of the World Cup and I just said that France won the World Cup with some African players who have been educated in France you know, but they still come from Africa. And so I thought, I said, it should encourage Africa to organize their football. They have so much talent. These guys are really French, they were born in France, they were not selected because of the quality of their football, their parents came to France, they have been educated in France. But that shows that the potential in Africa is there and one person cannot change that, the whole football has to be organized and structured. And successful national football starts with a youth system that is well organized. I cannot do that. I do not have enough time in front of me. I can help put it on route but you need 10, 20 years to do that.
What do you make of the Mesut Ozil situation and how it might resolve itself?
I feel like the length of the contract has nothing to do with, normally, the selection of the team. But uhh sometimes you have special cases that I don’t want to interfere in but most of the time when we think that we sign a player for five years now we have a good player for five years. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they practice at their, that they play at their very best you know? Because it’s a bit inviting them to be in the comfort zone. When the player is just 5-6 months it’s a bit different. You have the case of Rabiot at Paris St. Germain, you have the case of Ramsey in Arsenal. I don’t know. And I’m an Arsenal fan now. Even I’m a very sensitive fan because I cannot speak too much about that. I just want Arsenal to win.
On a similar point. Why do you think these contracts are running down at so many clubs particularly at Arsenal in recent years are having trouble?
In the case of Ramsey it’s not a question at all of contract. The player. I think it was not at all a financial situation and not a desire for the player to leave. But as long as I was there. I was convinced that the player would stay. What happened after I don’t know. But it was not a financial problem and not a desire to leave problem.
Why do the players run out their contracts? It’s very simple. Because the transfer money is so big now that they think “if I run out my contract I will not get the whole transfer but I will get a big part of it.” Adding that to the inflation, it means that the financial incentive to the player is to run out his contract. You will see that more and more. Because a normal, a good player today is between 50 and 100 million. So the player will not be bought for that price. His interest is to run the contract out and say to the club, ‘ok, I don’t want 50 but I want a part of it.’
Was it a mistake to give Ozil that significant contract? And tell me about Mesut Ozil, what’s he like as a person?
I don’t want to interfere in that. I’m a fan. I just want Arsenal to win the games. My position is very sensitive about that and I don’t want to interfere in internal policy. Ozil has a contract but again, the problem you ask is, you want to buy the same kind of player as Ozil you will have to spend 100 million. And to retain the value of the player and beyond the Ozil case, it’s more about the way football is structured nowadays. To buy players of top top quality you need 100 million. So the decision you have to make always is “do we extend the player, who cost us nothing, and is a top class player, or do we have the money to buy another player?” It’s not less expensive! And spend that kind of money.
Question in French
They ask me about Thomas Tuchel, the young generation coming up. He thinks I appreciate Tuchel from PSG which is true. What I like is that he moved from Germany to France and he is not scared to develop his ideas and he adapted very quickly to a different kind of game and he looks like he has the team with him.
You talked about the values you had as a coach in terms of developing young players, finding value in the market, building something bigger than what happens on the pitch.
I just want to say that we built the Emirates (stadium) without ONE PENNY INJECTED. By ANYBODY. This is all done on transfer policy. From the first to the last moment. You could only survive by having a good transfer policy and by selling your best players. Because what people forget now, this has changed, because the television money has improved a lot, so the weight today of a transfer is less big because television money is doubled compared to a few years ago. And we were relying on our transfer policy.
Do you think of the Premier League coaches now, that it’s Mr. Pochettino who is most similar to you in that regard?
Yeah, they have a good young generation. With Winks, Alli, Kane, Dier, they have a very good young generation like we had some times and like Man United had with the Giggs, Beckham, Scholes generation. So, they have a good basic ground to develop. They are maturing now and it will be interesting to see how they develop.
WHEW.. that was long. Apologies for any creative license I took with Wenger’s words and for the fact that I don’t have time to edit. I have to take the dog for a walk and the daughter to school. I might make corrections this afternoon but I have a busy day ahead so don’t count on it.
Money back in the comments section for anyone disgruntled with my free blog.
Appreciate you doing this Tim, as always. Wenger has always had interesting things to say.
These lifetime acheivement awards are always sort of glib, with nothing hugely exciting or new coming out of them, so I everything he’s said is no surprise. But I do wonder if, at his age, there’s just nothing new to say. No new ideas, no new insights. It’s like a band that comes out with a killer album or two, but then run out of new ideas. Because it really just sounds like much of the same over the last 10 years or so. Not a criticism of Wenger – it’s just how things are. Even Einstein sort of just faded after his initial flurry of brilliance.
But as a fan who heard all about the self-sufficiency, of being the first foreign manager, of revolutionizing diets… I despaired of the Wenger era by the end, it is kind of jading to hear the same things from him again and again.
*sits back and waits for the hate from people who feel the same way but see this somehow as an attack on Wenger or Tim
On Ozil and Ramsey, the full context of the remarks are useful to consider. Otherwise someone will see the words “comfort zone”, and another person will see the part where he says it would cost 100m to buy an Ozil, so the club has to make a decision on how best to re-allocate the money. In other words, “he slacked off”, or “you have to pay heavily for top class?” Depends on where you sit in this debate. So context is key.
Wenger is open, while at the same time avoiding tripwire headlines. That’s not an easy thing to do.
This, on Tuchel at PSG, is for me the most intriguing part of the whole interview 👇🏽
“What I like is that he moved from Germany to France and he is not scared to develop his ideas and he adapted very quickly to a different kind of game and he looks like he has the team with him”.
I don’t think it’s a dig. But it’s deep, astute, and unintentionally revealing.
it might be a bit of a dig. he knows psg well so i’m sure he knows what the players say of the difference between tuchel and the previous manager. while it may not be an intentional dig, it’s probably more a statement with insight.
…more of an informed statement than a dig.
It seems to inform how he would look at Emery’s performance without actually revealing what he believes about Emery’s performance. We can extrapolate from there but good luck doing that in an unbiased way.
I can say with full confidence he was taking shots at Emery and Sanllehi.
What’s the xG?
You can say with full speculation, you mean.
Full, full speculation. It doesn’t read like anything at all to me.
Just a touch of speculation, but mostly Tim’s dry humour.
*rabble-rabble*rouse-rouse*
jw1
He absolutely was. TBH I think Wenger was being disingenuous in referencing Ozil in this way, particularly as he (Wenger) was complicit in putting him (Ozil) in this so called ‘comfort zone’ in the first place.
Very naughty Arsene, mischief making was never your thing.
I’m guessing here, but I think Wenger was referring to the club culture at PSG and how the French league can be underestimated by some foreign managers.
The PSG owner is known for undermining his manager by being too friendly with his star players and cajoling them. That’s the No. 1 reason for any dressing room issue at PSG.
Tuchel has been doing very well in the French league when you think that Ancelotti and Emery lost the league title in their first season at PSG whereas Blanc, a French manager, was able to win the league in all his seasons at PSG.
Yeah, there was a report about Tuchel’s adaptation to the rockstar players at PSG – visiting their favourite Paris nightclubs to make sure he had eyes and ears there, and calling Neymar in the evenings to remind him how much he loves him as a player and needs him in his team.
When people castigate Emery for failing to deal with star players there, they’re really underestimating how bonkers that club is.
Wenger underlines a very important point on Ozil which is what a difficult situation that was for the club. They made a decision to give him the contract but if they hadn’t done so things might have turned out worse. Ozil has still been responsible for winning points for Arsenal since then (Newcastle away, Leicester at home come to mind) and although we incurred a substantial opportunity cost with his contract, there is little chance we could’ve found a superior player on the open market for what his wages are costing us.
Agreed on the ‘might have turned out worse’ part.
Arsenal were nearly paralyzed by their obsession to not lose control of the club’s image– affecting brand value. More so than on the pitch– the club waged a media campaign (war) to maintain public-facing equilibrium– with their public relations and social media messaging. From approx late-Fall 2017 until the day Arsene announced his resignation.
First, there was the possibility of losing both Alexis and Ozil for nothing. Then the media-contrived ’empty seats’ sh^tstorm that viralized into a living organism for several months. An online media-generated siege that scared the marketing arm sh^tless over possibly irreparable damage to the global AFC brand. Signing Mesut Ozil stanched the bleeding, limiting the war to a single front– focused on Arsene Wenger.
And Arsene shouldered it (bravely) till season’s end.
That period of masterclass-nasty character assassination– still grinds my gears.
I can agree that AW (and the club) might have been better served with him stepping down– say, 2 years earlier, But I can never forgive those who pushed him out earlier than circumstances dictated. The club and the transition we would have started this May? Could have worked as intended– had Wenger stayed through this season.
Wenger needed to stay on this season.
There. I’ve said it.
jw1
Big clubs can’t afford to stand still.
During Wenger’s two decades with us a host of managers won major league titles and European trophies and were still replaced by newer managers. Clubs are constantly trying to stay ahead of the modern game sustain their success. In the end, even Wenger had to pay the price of progress.
One big reason is the CL, which is a bit of a poisoned chalice. Wenger often performed miracles qualifying us, but the Arsenal teams that were good enough to qualify weren’t good enough to avoid annual humiliations in the biggest club tournament on the planet. That wasn’t good for our rep, or for Wenger’s career.
It’s not good for dressing rooms either. Some players will eventually come to the conclusion that they need to leave to further their careers at other Champions League clubs. Such as Alexis, Ox, Gnabry, and yes, Ramsey!
It’s sad that Wenger isn’t coaching another big team where he can cement his incredible legacy and we can cheer him on. The very last thing he needed was another year with us.
I totally agree that Wenger didn’t need us. In fact, although there was a bit of a Stockholm syndrome on both sides, it’s easy to see who needed who more until the climate turned too toxic to be tenable. Once the Wenger situation was biting the club in the almighty dollar, the axe had to be wielded. There was never a more dedicated servant to this club than Arsene Wenger, even if his devotion had reached arguably pathological levels by the end.
As for JW1’s theory about Arsenal needing Wenger to stay for another season, I don’t see it. In a vacuum it makes some sense. It’s easy to forget how ready everyone was to move on from him at the end of the 2018 season. We were all waiting with bated breath to find out who his successor would be and there was genuine enthusiasm about the club because finally things would be a little bit different. If Wenger stays, I think the toxic climate escalates until he is eventually forced out and Arsenal’s season may have been over before it even began.
Tim wrote an insightful post last year about Arsene’s incredible consistency – his ability to rack up 75-80 points while rebuilding different teams. The problem wasn’t Wenger turning into a bad coach, it was our rivals finding other coaches who could match that consistency. Then they also had more to spend etc.
I always thought that us occupying one of the four CL places in England for 20 years had the effect of forcing our rivals to take radical measures to improve. It’s precisely because of Arsene’s long-term excellence that teams like Sp*ds gave Pochettino a chance and FSG hired Klopp and backed him to the hilt. Because with Arsene around, you simply weren’t gonna qualify for the CL without a special coach and squad.
Time just caught up with Arsenal and Wenger, the same way it does for all of us.
Appreciate the thoughtful remarks guys.
Where I can see where some feel another year might have been standing still? It may have allowed the now-aborted machinery to have hardened in-place. Instead– and due solely to public perception/outcry the club moved forward to replace Wenger last May. My idea, effected– not necessarily in a vacuum? But considered as an alternative timeline?
Might have us looking at AW stepping down this May (not a ‘resignation’). With Mikel Arteta in the wings to come aboard. With Sven Mislintat still in the family– credentials established. Now with the funds to augment a changeover of the roster in Summer TW 2019. Gazidis just announcing his plans to ride-off into Milan’s sunset. Without– the power-vacuum/breach that Sanllehi strong-armed himself into.
Instead. Everything that’s been done has occurred because of too much b*tching over a situation that– yes, had already passed it’s sell-by date. WhoTF cares if it went another year to fix it– correctly? Just 6 more months for AW to announce his intentions. Six months– to maintain the club’s character and tradition? To make changes to Arsenal’s persona in a gradual, graceful fashion?
A possible alternative timeline– that’s occurred to me.
+++
Instead of this amputation, this loss of limb– we’re now, mostly clumsily, adapting to.
+++
Arsene Wenger, for the club he’ll always love– would have taken as many bullets as necessary for those six months. To possibly have that string of events. It’s a shame we fans could not have found the resilience.
Here, my apology. Sorry to rant.
But it just pains me, that all it might have taken– was another kilo of fortitude to see it end another way. To foster change another way. A bit of fortitude that we fans could not muster.
We fans and supporters; are the only pliable constant of any football club.
Now– we have no choice but find that fortitude.
jw1
Ivan’s biggest mistake was not taking the reigns from Arsene in the 2017-2018 offseason. He should have forced through the Alexis sale to Man City, brought in young talent instead of paying top dollar for Lacazette and later prevented the insane Ozil extension from being signed. Arsene “shouldered the blame” for the disastrous season, but his boss should have stepped in and told him to do what was in the long-term interest of the club. It didn’t and doesn’t really matter so much who sets up the team week-to-week when the strategy of the club can be characterized as “WTF?”
Arsenal will likely be paying the price for some time for last season’s decisions. I kind of think we haven’t really recovered yet from that Liverpool game in August 2017…
This is a gem from Squires on Tottenham’s stadium building fiasco, truly worth everyone’s time.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2019/feb/19/david-squires-on-tottenhams-grand-designs-for-their-new-stadium
I absolutely loved that.
His passion and abiding interest comes through. He usually has something interesting to say – so many thanks, Tim for doing this.
He is candid and eloquent when speaking generally but more circumspect when responding directly to current situations and players. Clearly, there is much more going on under the surface which he is uncomfortable discussing.
I hope he continues contributing his unique, compassionate and intelligent voice when asked. It is so necessary to be able to hear that in a world and time that be so absurd, incoherent and inarticulate.
Hey, if I had time for a blog post today it was going to be about the transcript of Ornstein on the Arsecast.
https://arseblog.news/2019/02/ornstein-on-the-arsecast-the-full-transcript/
I think some of the revelations in there are deeply disturbing.
Wow.
Well… this sure demolished a few arguments in favour of the management on the Ozil situation. Bringing on an unfit and unacclimatised Denis Suarez to chase a game we were losing to the champions of England really chrystallised everything, Dude’s training well, according to Orny, but still no dice.
You can believe Ornstein or not if you wish, but the strong suggestion, as has been argued by a few of us, is that it’s top-down, it’s financially motivated, and it’s due to lingering dissatisfaction over the size of the contract. Clearly the club is trying to squeeze money here and there, and the 350k a week is a big, fat target.
Ornstein sums it up well, in explaining what they hope the desired outcome would be (pushing him out at HIS financial cost, not Arsenal’s), with the irony that the player’s financial value suffers, both to their detriment and to his.
Incredibly, in briefing against Ozil (which makes a nonsense of the notion that he shouldn’t respond) they expect us to pat them on the back for doing their jobs — supporting an Arsenal player at a VERY difficult time — i.e. following his painful, racially-fueled and acrimonious exit from Die Mannschaft. They also briefed against Mislintat. They apparently do this sort of thing a lot. It has always happened, mind, but not, to my recollection, this maliciously.
It’s not all black and white. He paints a fair and rounded picture of Sanllehi and Emery than polarised debate might otherwise do. Sanllehi, he says, is impressive, and comes across as a really well-connected and shrewd operator… someone, in fairness, we were lucky to land. But man, our club is still a nest of vipers.
He was also forced to speculate that there’s a fear that if Ozil plays, he might actually play well which would lead to demands from fans that he stay.
Kuh–Ray–Zee!
That part got my attention as well.
This is what we’ve come to… if we play him and he looks good, he’s harder to get rid of.
And the thing that makes me laugh, is that he might actually play out of his skin (As he did in the FA Cup final against Chelsea a couple of seasons ago).
Oh boy.
I remain unconvinced by arguments that suggest Ozil’s benchings aren’t at least partly down to his own inconsistency and resistance to Emery’s methods. To my mind, neither the management nor the player come off looking good in this fiasco.
Oh sure. I agree. As said many times, I don’t think he’s blameless or the decision to drop him from your preferred Xi is irrational. But as I’ve also said many times, the Arctic deep-freeze is another matter, plainly not football related, and Ornstein confirms that.
Well, Ornstein’s pretty reliable, but I’d prefer to say that Ornstein confirms that he’s heard these things, but the things themselves… Who knows.
However, just from all these pieces, including Wenger’s comments, Ornstein’s, and the takes by Andrew, James, and the folks at Arsenal Vision over the last week or so, it does — all of it and everyone — look like a steaming pile of whale sh*t.
I’m thinking of a stranded whale, you understand.
Meh. Football’s big business and big business seems to me like it is run, by necessity, by nests of vipers. It’s an adapt or die world. If we want to play on the same playground as Abu Dhabi FC and Hedge Fund FC and Tax Haven FC and Shady Chinese Sponsorship FC, we can’t bring a squirt gun to the playground.
(Reference for those interested: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/15/gazprom-abu-dhabi-alternative-guide-champions-league-ties-last-16)
PS I don’t think this is new, it’s just being taken to bigger, more complex and more corrupt levels than before. Arsenal were probably run by a nest of vipers in the 1910-20’s too when they were making their fortune in banking, heck they somehow got Arsenal promoted to the top flight against the rules and then they poached the greatest coach of his generation by doubling his salary to join what was in 1925 a struggling club near the relegation zone, no doubt using those same shady funds.
Stranded whale poo. That’s a bad smell. Like, really bad.
Is all this a steaming pile? I doubt it, given who’s saying and how he’s saying. Orny heavily caveats a lot of what he says, and is honest about what he doesn’t know. But that’s how the newsgathering process works. If you’re a good journalist is (and Ornstein is, and that’s why he’s a correspondent and not merely a reporter) you ask trusted sources the right questions, and you draw informed conclusions. The info, the insight is solid.
Haberman and Baker are not in the West Wing with Trump and co, but they still, through good reporting chops and solid sources, bring us credible accounts of the train wreck that is the Trump presidency… which is then confirmed by Trump insiders when they leave.
The BBC has many, many good reporters. In politics and in sport. Ornstein is in that rarefied group that is supremely well-connected, are senior editorial figures and have been in the game long enough to know how to get the story behind the story.
James and Andrew dont have that access, and that’s why they invite Orny onto the podcast. have to say too that far too much of yesterday’s Arsecast was spent on the defensive. Seems like a section of the gooner nation gave them a justified shoeing.
Claude: To clarify: I meant the Ozil-Sanllehi situation itself is stranded whale bum-blowout, NOT folks like Ornstein, Wenger, and the podcasters! I really value all of their insight, and especially Ornstein when it comes to transfers and the running of the club.
I don’t think the Ozil squeezing out is purely financial. I just don’t; it makes no sense on any level whatsoever. If he plays well, then you at the very least have some potential buyers. If he doesn’t play, and you give the idea to potential buyers that he’s got a bad attitude and not good enough anymore, who is going to go for him? It makes no sense.
I think it started as Emery dropping him to try to force a reaction, which clearly hasn’t happened. It probably led to bad blood – but not necessary improved performances from Ozil. Lest we forget, we’ve looked pretty shit even when/especially when Ozil has played. I think Emery was trying to provoke his star to play to his potential, and it hasn’t worked, and now there’s bad blood.
The ‘if Ozil plays he’ll look good’ has more than a whiff of Diaby/Wilshere. They may have been injured, but it’s the same thing: players magically improve in their absence.
If Emery were a huge admirer of Ozil, he’d have gone to bat for him. As it is, if he received word from on high that Ozil needed to be moved on and not playing him would help, then Emery probably shrugged his shoulders and said sure.
Ornstein said a lot of crap in that interview with Arseblog and after too; why were we pursuing a box to box midfielder, when a week later after Ramsey is announced as leaving he tells the BBC podcast that a #8 midfielder… a box-to-box midfielder… doesn’t fit Emery’s system? Sanhelli is an “impressive” operator? I think he’s been fed lines and is regurgitating them as a favour to make sure his “in” at the club is maintained. I used to think his source previously was Gazidis himself, now I think Ornstein is trying to ingratiate himself to Sanhelli who is a hitman, carrying out KSE orders to cut player salaries and transfers dramatically.
Yeah this.
I thought this because he found a way to include the PoV that Ramsey never intended to sign without actually reporting it. It’s complete speculation because no one can know Ramsey’s intention, especially when it contradicts what Ramsey has told us, and what Ornstein himself reported about a deal being close but a contract never being put in front of Ramsey.
Weak, but the club got the message out there through him. That’s how I read that. Ornstein later asked for a site to not quote him as saying this, but that’s what most people took from it anyway.
“You can believe Ornstein or not if you wish, but the strong suggestion, as has been argued by a few of us, is that it’s top-down, it’s financially motivated, and it’s due to lingering dissatisfaction over the size of the contract. “
Then why would Emery make Ozil a co-captain and start him in 10 out of 12 games to start the PL season?
Makes no sense.
He then missed a few with back problems, a couple due to a knee problem, and a few due to some sort of illness.
Seems to me Emery gave him a fair shot and it’s probably a combination of two factors: Ozil hadn’t impressed with his attitude, defensive contribution, or whatever, and then the brass decided he wasn’t worth the money and have been trying to push him out.
I’m going to go with Ornstein. No offence.
…cause “seems to me” is an insufficiency robutst reporting standard, compared to that of the beeb’s well-connected sports news correspondent
Why would I take any ?
Please explain the logic of starting a player ten times out of twelve for 90 minutes a pop or close to it, if it was your intention to freeze him out solely due to money and no other factor.
I’m sure you going with Ornstein had absolutely nothing to do with his story backing up your position 🙂
For the record, you may not remember it but a few threads back I floated the idea Ozil getting frozen out might be coming partially from the top and not just from Emery.
Emery doesn’t have enough clout to make a decision like that without blessing from the board.
Ornstein has the virtue of knowing what he’s talking about 🙂 Not spitballing to fit a pre-decided narrative. And as i said, he’s not a tabloid journalist.
You were clearly right about the decision being top-down.
Wasn’t Gazidis our Ceo for most of that time?
Are you saying Gazidis forced Emery to make Ozil a co- captain?
Here’s what happened: they played him in order to showcase him, so that he would be attractive to other teams. It was an intentional ploy. They knew exactly what they were doing. After a few months of that they had a meeting with him and said “you don’t have a place at Arsenal, if another team comes for you, you should sign or you will be dropped”. He said “lol, nah, I’m staying” and now they are trying to push him out. That’s what happened.
Stop being weird Tom.
What I am suggesting is that this financial direction from the top was not there while Gazidis was CEO. It came after his departure.
“Stop being weird Tom.
What I am suggesting is that this financial direction from the top was not there while Gazidis was CEO. It came after his departure.”
At least I’m not weird looking 🙂
Gazidis announced his departure September 18 and Ozil kept starting for another half a dozen of games or more until he got his back spasms or something.
So Raul didn’t take over on day 1 after the announcement and start peddling cost cutting. I don’t know what you want me to say?
You see Ozil named captain and starting games, and you agree there’s then a direction from the top to cut costs, but you attribute it to Ozil’s performances rather than the new guy who also withdrew a contract from another captain? Ok I guess.
Not at all.
What Im saying simply is that maybe it was a combination of things why Ozil has become a persona non grata for Emery and the brass and not just because of his pay.
What was on everyone’s mind before the season’s start? Oh that’s right – “can Ozil adapt to Emery’s no one is special attitude and play more defense?
Has he?
Ozil’s performances DID have something to do with getting dropped, Shard. Tom is half-right. But his exclusion from the starting XI, as I keep repeating till I’m blue in the face, is not the issue. That had a rational and justifiable basis, from a coach’s POV.
There are some very smart guys on this thread trying to make us swallow the etablishment/coach position that Ozil became so bad, that he wasn’t even worth a place in our 18. Which, as guys who know their football, they must know to be bollocks.
Ornstein strips all those flimsy justifications away, bless him.
Question for you Claude: Is Ornstein a correspondent or the Word made flesh? 😀
JK, JK. I like the guy.
I don’t know who is peddling the argument you’re trashing, but possibly I’m misunderstanding what others are saying. I think there have been a few instances when Ozil has been fit and not even named on the bench, so there’s clearly something more than a “tactical” reason at play. I thought everyone agreed with that?
Whatever the case, it’s just an awful situation for us right now. A bit like the fecal detritus of a large, beached marine mammal.
Agree. That’s some scary sh*t dude. I am desperate for someone to convince me that KSE won’t eventually be the demise of what Arsenal used to be.
He’s uncomfortable talking about Ozil. I wonder why that is. By comparison he was much more definite about Ramsey. Is it just that Ramsey’s future is certain but Ozil’s isn’t? Is he telling Ozil to do better? That part of the interview has me confused.
His reaction to the Tuchel question was kind of cool. I think he felt happy about Tuchel coming from Germany to France. I didn’t make the connection about the players being with him and what that says about Emery, but yeah, it does at least suggest at Emery’s failings.
I might have to watch the presser again. I think I was just happy to see him again to be too analytical about any of it.
His answer on mentors is class as ever. And if I ran a national federation of an upcoming footballing nation, I would immediately get in touch and appoint him as a consultant if not the man in charge.
Maybe because it was his decision to give Ozil the contract he’s on. That’s why he keeps bringing up the arbitrary £100 m it would take to bring in a player of Ozil’s caliber, although the market seemed to rebut that notion ,if the rumors of lack of interest from other clubs were true.
Ramsey , on the other hand , at £180 k per week would’ve represented better value than Ozil at twice that.
Eh? That’s a weird interpretation. Also this whole market thing. The market responds in terms of both demand and supply. If Ozil’s primary messaging was that he intends to stay there is no reason for there to be offers which leak to the media. And frankly, I predicted he’d sign a new deal because that was his public messaging, and it would be more damaging to his brand if he’d gone back on that.
There were also reports that Wenger didn’t want to pay Ozil that much but was overruled. Which I didn’t believe actually. But I don’t know what to make of it, I don’t think you’re right about Wenger being uncomfortable because of the price of the contract. There’s something else behind that.
Maybe, why not.
I don’t have strong feelings about that one way or another, although if ,as you say, Ozil expressed his desire to stay , and there were no offers for him other that from China ( I think) , then whoever signed off on that deal from Arsenal must’ve been in a very generous mood.
Why not cos if he had to defend that all he had to say was no it wasn’t a mistake, we could afford to pay him that much because of who he is and how much it would cost to replace him. There wouldn’t need to be any discomfort and ambivalence.
No offers that would leak because they’d never get past the informal stage. Not same as no interest,
Plus, I don’t know what has come over Arsenal fans. That Ozil contract is what the Emirates move was about. We paid our best player, a global star, among the largest contracts in the league. I don’t see it as a millstone and neither did Gazidis because he was still offering Ramsey his contract. Us cutting costs now is a change in direction which distorts the way we look at the Ozil deal. The club could and can afford it. They’ve just decided to get by on the cheap.
Phew!
Finally caught up on the posts (ie about 5 days’ worth).
I won’t bore with my pre-season expectations, Ozil, “values”, the slipperiness of language or erm, whatever I’ve forgotten, but just to say thanks so much for this transcript Tim.
I love Wenger and we were lucky to have him as manager. Yep, he was allowed to stay too long, but what he achieved in terms of great ‘artistic’ [attacking] football and his pride in achieving the stadium via mainly his astute management of increasing players’ ability [and value] and achieving Champions League more often than the agreement of 3-out-of-4 years to guarantee bank-backing (evident in the transcript) is deserving of an award.
I know, I should leave this comment at that point but… there was one ‘yeah yeah, ha ha’ gag I thought of back on previous threads…
We all know a player’s value goes up when he isn’t played.
(Bellerin, Holding, even Jenkinson are better than who we now play) so maybe Ozil isn’t being played so his value holds or even rises…?
/tongue-in-cheek
The club briefing against Mislintat being “malicious”seems a little off.
Are we supposed to accept Sven Mislintat is entirely blameless for coming here from Dortmund and leaving for Bayern less than 2 years later? Why didn’t we call the news reports where Sven was unhappy about not getting promotions “Mislintat briefing against the club”?
He was literally promoted twice in the short time he was here.
Why is it ‘malicious’ for Arsenal tell their side of the story? He officially got a warm public send-off. I don’t see the problem with saying privately that they expected more collaboration and teamwork from a guy who wanted the Technical Director role.
“The club briefing against Mislintat being “malicious”seems a little off.”
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Didnt say that. Though that the reference to scale was clear, but hey ho
Clubs always brief, and that’s what keeps reporters in business. But i cant remember this scale of negative stories planted about individuals in my long years of following Arsenal.
There’s no doubt that they tried to paint Sven as a detached hippy when news of his departure first broke.
Media knifings are more part of the culture now, and that is undeniable to anyone who’s been paying attention to that part of things at AFC
In the case of Mislintat I’m not sure Arsenal did anything “maliciously”, as you wrote.
I thought it was unusual that he’d been promoted twice but we kept reading stories about him being disgruntled about promotions. I mean, if you want a role, stay and fight for it my man.
And in the wake of his falling out with Tuchel, and being banished from the entire training ground at Dortmund. I think Arsenal have been very gentlemanly with him.
That’s my interpretation, and Im sticking by it.
Something has clearly changed in the media culture, and for the worse. Sanllehi has brought Camp Nou and Bernabeu high office politics to the Emirates.
I cant seem to find any instances of spinning against Richard Law, Pat Rice or Steve Bould. Can you?
Well firstly, poor Dick Law got plenty of bad press. He took the fall internally for the whole Park Ji-Young fiasco, and for our poor record with South American prospects, which was supposedly his area of expertise.
Secondly, why should the club show someone who couldn’t hack two years at Arsenal the same deference they showed to ex-player and Arsene’s “Hand of the King” Pat Rice?
Sven also had the option of staying silent and not putting out stories about his poor career. But no, Arsenal must always be the bad guy in every instance.
I’m actually glad things are changing at this club. Really bored of the fake, humble small-town club act. On reflection, I’ll take some Camp Nou high drama over disdainful AGM appearances from toffs with zero footballing acumen, or “the Board is aware of the recent unrest” type statements from whatever Lord gets rolled out of the boardroom months after a crisis has already boiled over.
One of the things Ornstein said about this was that Mislintat admits he’d probably do things differently if he had the chance.
Sven tried to do things one way, the club needed it done another way. That’s all.
Before Mislintat came in, we let a bunch of scouts go like Ben Wrigglesworth who we poached from Leicester with great fanfare. Did you see any of them crying to the press about promotions they were promised?
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My interpretation is that the briefing paints Mislintat as a very sensible head of recruitment, whose ambitions weren’t being met as promised. I read that transcript and in fact felt further aggrieved that we lost him / he quit, so if the point was to garner sympathy for Arsenal, it failed.
But I can also see Kaius’ point re: Arsenal acting in good faith and Mislintat being a bit of a d*ck about it all.
I’m not sure what to think now.
Both the Spanish Journalist Guy on Skysports and Ornstein said similar things, he had his own team/structure, which he didn’t fully integrate into the club. Maybe he was protecting his secrets.
On the one hand, he’s a genius! So indulge him (I think this is why he was promoted twice).
On the other hand, you can’t be do it your way and expect to be named Technical Director can you? That’s practically a Boardroom position.
Like Serge Gnabry, I think he might still be here if Bayern weren’t such a lure.
Fair points, but whether Sven did or didn’t do this or that (which has got Kaius deep in the weeds) is kind of not the point. The point is about the culture of the club, in which high ups brief to position themselves in turf battles, tear down the other guy and cover their a**es. Florentino Perez and Bartomeu kind of media politics that is common in Spain, between the clubs and AS, Marca and friendly media.
That is a media briefing culture change at Arsenal, and it’s being driven by the Sanllehi regime. It’s writ large, plain as day, in the transcript, and has reared its head in other reports in the past few months. I don’t like it and think it’s poisonous, but hey, Sahllehi did not make it to high levels in Spain without being a sharp operator.
Again, did you ever hear a peep about Bould, Law, Wenger or Rice? I asked Kaius, and on that point, got radio silence. Which is an answer of sorts, I suppose.
Look, we’ll see whether the ends justify the approach of sharper politics. The oppo briefings, telling the coach to play a guy less because he may play well and complicate efforts to shove him out. If Raul makes us the force we used to be, I suppose it would have been worth it. But I don’t know how this deeply cynical stuff can sit well with any gooner.
Just want to point out that Gnabry went to Werder Bremen after he left us, not Bayern Munich. Then Bayern came in and activated some sort of clause in his contract that allowed them to buy him for 8 million euros, then immediately loaned him to Hoffenheim. What I’m wondering is could Arsenal have activated that same clause? I have no idea but Wenger was reluctant to let him go and at that price it seems like he would’ve made the move if he could. THen again, it might’ve been at that point that Gnabry said “Nein danke” and chose Bayern. Which is exactly what I would’ve done in his place.
Sorry Claude, I did answer the point about Dick Law, Pat Rice and Bould but I guess it was embargoed.
What I said was: Dick Law’s a bad example because he did in fact get lots of bad press. The Park Ji-Sung shambles was when his name really came to light, but he mainly took the fall for Arsenal’s terrible record with South American prospects, which was supposed to be his specialty area.
And Pat Rice was Hand to Wenger’s King. Why would we show club legends like Rice and Bould the same deference as a club scout who didn’t last two years with us and already had a job at Bayern lined up?
Taken in isolation, It’s easy to add things like Mislintat leaving to the current laundry list of gripes. Taken in context, there’s been pretty high turnover of club scouts since the general shake-up, StatsDNA, etc and no-one really noticed. And with Ramsey, people on here decided that Raul ‘Lord Sauron’ Sanllehi “pushed him out” even though Ornstein, the same Ornstein whose word you say is as good as the truth, suggests Rambo never had any intention of signing a new deal.
As far as Özil is concerned, earlier in the season when his name appeared in a starting line-up on Arseblog News, half the comments would be people snarking about “oh, nice of Özil to turn up after his latest fake illness”. After four years at the club, a fair number of fans don’t even take the guy seriously as a professional. So why are we surprised that a new coach trying to instill a team-first culture at the club has little time for him?
Like Bun, I just think some of the aspersions being cast on Arsenal may be plausible, but too many are creative projections based on flimsy foundations. The very first thing Ornstein acknowledges at the start of that transcript is “it’s hard to know the full story”. I think people convinced by their own pet theories would do well to remember that.
Noted Doc.
But we all knew something was up when Bayern were forced to release a statement saying they had nothing to do with his move to Bremen.
Yeah they were definitively sniffing around that situation and the contract clause business is probably their doing. Still, I don’t think the narrative of “good player leaves Arsenal for better club” quite rings true. He simply didn’t get chances coming off a big injury. The timing was bad for his contract to come due after a season like that.
Off the post of this topic, but watching the Liverpool/Bayern match. Gnabry has been great. Sigh. More terrible transfer activity, as he’d be just about what we need in a wing.
Wenger wanted to keep him but Serge wanted to play and it wasn’t happening for him at Arsenal or even on loan at West Bro, so he decided to sign with Werder instead of extending with us. He’s finally developed into a starter caliber player but it took him 5 years and 3 clubs to get there since leaving us.
ugh. watched the same performance from serge; makes me wanna throw up! 🤮
Much of the fallout and tension of this season comes from ridiculous decision-making leading up to the 2017-2018 season. As I had thought before last season started, Alexis should have been sold in the offseason along with Ozil if a reasonable extension couldn’t be agreed to. We forewent a lucrative transfer fee for Alexis, swapped him for a marginal player on ridiculous wages, and signed Ozil to an insane contract in order to pursue a top 4 finish that was always improbable. And to make matters worse two top-dollar strikers were bought when it was clear that the team’s backbone was a mess. Such a squandering of resources precludes big money transfers this season when there is a need to replace several players in the squad.
Clearly there are opinions here that paint the club, and especially Sanllehi, in nefarious terms. I guess I’m just having a little trouble with this level of aspersion (not, mind you, that I trust that things will get better). We are in the middle of a messy transition that suddenly got a lot messier when the man whose vision spearheaded the transition packed his bags.
From day one of the newly appointed SMEG Brain Trust, a Guardian journalist voted Ozil most likely to be the first high-profile casualty. While my fervent hope was that this would prove unfounded — particularly when Emery spoke of welcoming Ozil back from Germany as family — signs of dissatisfaction on both sides began to accrue. And here we are.
Let’s say Sanllehi is ordering Emery not to play Ozil, or, perhaps, that Emery is in concert with Sanllehi about an order not to play him. As hard as this is for us as fans, I find myself feeling a bit Stoic about it all. I wish the club would communicate better what its plans are, but look, if freezing out a 31-year-old nearing the end of this career but who takes up the wage bill of two elite players and who isn’t performing according to expectations and tactical set-up is part of the plan, then…ouch? but also, ok? let’s see where this goes. If it’s to free up funds / wages to re-energize a squad in desperate need of younger blood and players who best suit the new manager’s style, then I can understand the ruthlessness. We’ve wanted that exact shift in culture for years. Will it work, long term? We have yet to find out. That’s how I want to respond right now: we’re in a messy transition, we don’t know the future, but we know it’s going to involve surprising and perhaps difficult changes in the short term. (By the way, Ozil will play again this season.)
Some of the outrage over Ozil’s treatment is based on results. This will die down when we start winning games again. Some of it is down to the question of “values.” We don’t treat players like this, apparently. Well, apparently we do, and that’s offending some people. I don’t know, guys…I was also not cool with the indulgent and coddling “values” that saw us with individual players who had the power (on the pitch and in contract negotiations).
Those are fair points, some of which I see differently, but theyre fair.
Let’s see if Sanllehi can be a Bargain Basement Bartomeu. Bring the Barcelona management culture, sharp practice, effortless d***ishness, ruthlessness and political ethos on the Kroenke cheap… and turn us into them on the field.
I doubt it. We’re not the same. We’re never going to spend 30m on a players and park him. Heck, we took a player they clearly wanted to get shot of. But hey, these are early days. Let’s see how his Barcelona-on-the-Thames project goes. We will know, in time, what we gain, and we lose.
I have my doubts, too, Claude.
And last point, because I have a life… 🙂
I don’t think that treating your players with decency is coddling them.
Call me naive (and you surely will), I think that you can keep your core principles and be successful.
Over and out.
Excellent summary by Bun with which I 100% concur.
I think the point about “values” is so messy because “values” not only means different things to everyone but also by its very nature the sheer mention of the word leaves all of those crucial details of implied meaning packed inside, clear or at least felt strongly in the mind but not articulated for the broad readership who will of course each interpret it according to their own perceptions. All of that is a long winded way of saying we are unlikely to find accord on what values Arsenal has espoused and are now espousing. Still, Bun’s description of the contrast between how contract rebels, personae non-grata and want-always were handled under Wenger and how they are handled now is inescapable. I suppose the interpretation of the intentions underlying these actions is what colors the club and the players in question with the “values” or lack thereof that we so often speak of.
Yeah fully agree with Bun on this.
Facing the prospect of no angel investment from the owner, a self-sustaining philosophy, and paltry Europa League revenue streams, Arsenal simply cannot, and should not show the same largesse we are used to seeing. We need a hard dose of realism, not airy laments about values.
The Atletico Madrid team that denied us in the UEL semis spent about 80 million less on wages than we do. Sp*ds have a wage bill which is about half of ours. In the last decade, what achievements do we have to show for our “values” and for paying one of the highest wage-bills in Europe?
So I have some direct questions I’d genuinely like you to answer, straight.
1. Not f****** people over (acting with integrity with regard to legitimate agreements) is a pretty low bar for values. Agree or disagree?
2. What do you think of the calculation that if you play Ozil and he plays well, it complicates effort to get rid of him?
3. If you want Mesut out, is paying up on the rest of his contract coddling him, and does that make you a soft touch?
4. Should Arsenal FC bite the bullet on what everyone agrees was a poor agreement for the club and take the financial hit by paying him off, or should they continue to make Ozil’s stay untenable to the point where he has no choice to leave, financially disadvantaged?
5. (and probably the most interesting Q I am posing to you) is there a footballing justification for leaving Ozil out of matchday SQUADS, or do you think he brings value off the bench as part of the 18? In other words, do you consider him still good enough to make our squads?
6. Money is tight. Should the club try to recover some of the Ozil outlay remaining on his contract?
I cant demand answers from you, but can only hope that you engage.
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Values are not messy. “I wont cheat on my wife”. “As a consultant/businessman, I won’t do business with ethically questionable people, no matter how much they’re paying”. Those are values someone may bring to life and work respectively.
Theyre not complicated.
Or, if you’re a club, “I wont work with Mendes, Raiola or Joorabchian, because their practice of agenting is one that we’re not comfortable with ethically”. (Sanllehi tore that one up)
Theyre not complicated.
Values are, when you think about it, VERY straightforward. Not saying “easy”, saying “straightforward”.
Shard and I spoke about clear, specific things, not abstracts. We could not have been more specific.
Man, that’s a lot Claude. As a way of helping me respond, could you clarify what you think Arsenal’s values are? For example, if it’s that we always treat players fairly in terms of contracts and playing time, then I’d argue the current regime isn’t much different from the ancien regime. We can all think of examples of signings over the years that were baffling and who stayed and left under less than valorous circumstances. Maybe the treatment of Ozil is on an extreme end of the spectrum, but let’s not pretend that a spectrum wasn’t there in the first place.
But perhaps you want to have a philosophical discussion? Values are contingent. They are straightforward only insofar as any community agrees that they are, so to claim a universal straightforwardness about “values” doesn’t really say anything at all. But actually your example is an ethical one. The value is “marriage,” and then the ethical or “ought” element to achieving that value is “don’t cheat.” Similarly, you might say that what a team should value is “success,” and then that the way to achieve that value is “don’t cheat.”
What actions should go into achieving the value of success? Is it possible that in a system such as competitive sport, there might be varying aims that conflict with the inherent valuing of human life apart from ability, talent, and financial gain? What about this ethical statement in support of success: “a club should aim to be as successful as possible but at the same time treat humans quite apart from their ability, talent, and financial gain.” How would this ethical imperative achieve the intended value of “success” in a sport for which ability, talent, and financial gain are intrinsic to being successful?
I think if you look to sport in terms of morality / ethics, you’re always going to be disappointed. If the value of “success” is based on morality, then results don’t matter. If the value of “success” is based on results, then morality doesn’t matter. I’ve given up on trying to think of professional sport as a measure, symbol, or locus of a moral universe, precisely because it is, at heart, a results based metric, and therefore doesn’t support any vision of how we should treat others.
Perhaps, then, the ultimate goal is to support the team in the world that best exemplifies the moral principle of inclusion, for example, in which case you need to give up on conventional ideas of power and success. For the record, I support those things. I just don’t think professional sports / corporate clubs do. I think we need to reconsider what we expect from a club in terms of morality.
“I think if you look to sport in terms of morality / ethics, you’re always going to be disappointed. If the value of “success” is based on morality, then results don’t matter. If the value of “success” is based on results, then morality doesn’t matter. I’ve given up on trying to think of professional sport as a measure, symbol, or locus of a moral universe, precisely because it is, at heart, a results based metric, and therefore doesn’t support any vision of how we should treat others.”
I find this profoundly depressing. Your only moral value of sport is in victory? If the only value is in winning, then I have some bad news for you about Arsenal over the next 20 years or so. We aren’t going to be doing much winning.
Also, being disappointed isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I know I’m the king of lowered expectations but sometimes you just gotta be disappointed. It’s good to feel loss, heartbreak.
Sometimes I wonder if you argue for arguments sake or if you really believe some things you say. Do you really not find any value, any morality, in sport other than winning?
For the record, I support those things. I just don’t think professional sports / corporate clubs do. I think we need to reconsider what we expect from a club in terms of morality.
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To clarify: For the record, I support inclusion (for example), I just don’t think professional sports / corporate clubs do. I think we need to reconsider what we expect from a club in terms of morality.
In reference to your 5th question and it being the most interesting, I don’t even agree with the premise that Özil’s situation is that interesting at all. As Bun suggests, it was fairly easy to predict.
Early in the season when Özil’s name would appear on a teamsheet over on Arseblog, there’d be a ton of snarky “nice of Özil to turn up after his latest fake illness” type tweets. Based on his history at the club, a section of the fanbase doesn’t even take the guy seriously as a pro.
Where was this indignation when Elneny was frozen out at the start of the season? The fact that Elneny is being treated the same way as Özil tells us this isn’t necessarily about high wages. And that “values” are being selectively invoked based on the size of a player’s contract. Either both are cases of “constructive dismissal” or neither of them are.
We’re not PSG. We don’t choose starting XI’s or 18-man squads based on salary. So to a coach, especially a new coach, Özil and Elneny are just squad players. If they don’t play, other players are getting their minutes. We may lose by not getting the most out of Özil’s contract, but we gain from someone like Guendouzi getting regular playing time and increasing his worth as a player.
For me, Arsenal don’t have much of a case to answer regarding values here.
Who’s ever been financially disadvantaged by leaving Arsenal? What’s more likely is a wealthy enough club wants him and can match or increase his salary, or Arsenal pays what they owe. The day Arsenal welches on a contract, I’ll say I was wrong. Ain’t happening now though.
As far as Joorabchian, Mendes and Raiola are concerned, this is more selective application of “values”. Or are you saying these three are the only morally compromised agents in the entire game, and every single agent Arsenal usually works with is a paragon of virtue? You really think Arsenal should pass up on talent like de Ligt or Pepe because Mendes might get a cut? I don’t.
Sanllehi is not the bad guy here. He’s a guy coming in at the end of a decade-long period of over-spending on players and under-achievement on the pitch. He answers to KSA, so it seems a bit myopic to blame him and him alone for every action the club takes that annoys us.
I like Bun and Doc’s philosophical approach to the values question much more than mine.
Bun, the question were for Doc, who said that values were hard to understand. Yes, it was a ton. I apologise. I mistook myself for Jeremy Paxman last night, but now that Ive woken up, I can that Im clearly not.
Not for nothing?
This intriguing podcast transcript has been available for almost 10 days.
Bit amused by the idea– that most had NOT seen it until Tim posted the link today.
Mostly, that several have expressed that they’d just caught up on what’s been several straight days of engaging commentary– that might not have unwound in the same manner had this transcript been linked here say, last Wednesday.
I’d read this– day after it was online– and was quietly curious why it hadn’t been a focal point. Guess I’m clear. 🙂
jw1
If we look at the Raul promotion as a bureaucratic coup, then the expulsion of Ramsey and Ozil may also be seen as political. Get the loyalists of the previous guy out. Ozil’s performances seem to be an issue here, but Ramsey’s? Clearly that contract was good value for us.
And on values. Philosophy apart. Arsenal went back on their word to Ramsey and didn’t even inform him. He’s our longest serving player. He deserves better than that. Arsenal are supposed to be better than that.
Arsenal signed a contract with Mesut who is settled in London for the immediate future, and then decide they want to force him out. Not trade him and take the hit, not buy out his contract, not engage with him and win him over, not coax good performances out of him, but destroy his playing potential and reputation. Did anyone think finding out there’s plans to cut him from the roster might even explain poor performances. That the coach not fighting for him might be the issue between them?
Whatever this is it’s dirty, sleazy stuff, passed off as just business. It’s not. It’s not Arsenal. And no, maybe some of you guys wanted Arsenal’s culture to change to this. I didn’t. This is not why I started supporting the club.
Shard, could you please explain the moral difference between how contracts were handled under Wenger’s regime as opposed to Emery’s regime? Let’s start with Lucas Perez, ok? How do you think Perez was handled as a player? Under your morality, I’d say “terrible.” After you answer for Perez, I’ll ask you about Ji Sung Park. Bischoff! By the way, how do you feel about the club’s treatment of Justin Hoyte? Or is loyalty itself more important than quality? Did we go back on our word on Hoyte, Merida, JET, Bendtner, Aliadiere, Gibbs, Traore, Miyaichi, all of whom were, at one time or another, told they were the future of Arsenal? Sorry, did Emery and Sanllehi do that? Were they the ones who didn’t tie down Ramsey to a long term contract? Were they the ones who signed up Walcott and then determined he was surplus to needs? Say more, Shard!
Welcome to football, as it’s always been. Your focus on the Sanllehi regime in this regard is highly selective indeed, and therefore not convincing. Not your Arsenal? Give me a break.
Right. Because Mesut Ozil’s situation is the same as Amaury Bischoff’s.
Those guys lost out on ability, that’s ‘just business’. You want to say Ozil isn’t good enough to make the squad under this coach, while this is how we’re playing, go right ahead. You want to ignore what happened with Ramsey’s contract withdrawal, cool.
As for selective. Let’s say Arsene Wenger was doing the same to Ozil. It’s true I would be less harsh on him. Why? Because he’d earned my trust by living with the values he, and the club, espoused. That you look for holes in that armour is a different thing. I was even willing to grant him exceptions such as signing Suarez – the good one-, which I was against simply on account of values, but understood the value in. It’s called a track record, and both Sanllehi and Emery have less than stellar ones.
And I don’t care if I’m convincing to you or not. I voice my opinions here simply as an outlet in this regard. Arsenal are going to do what they are going to do, and live with the outcome, good or bad. And all of us are going to support, or not, in our own ways.
Also a bit rich saying that this is the change in culture we’ve been wanting, and then arguing there’s no difference.
A matter of degree rather than kind, my friend. There was always ruthlessness, of course, because this is a business and sporting endeavor; I think what you’re seeing with Ozil is a new kind of ruthlessness or stand regarding certain criteria, one of them obviously financial, but another also, perhaps, being about attitude. This is a shift. Obviously you’re not on board. But I think if you judge clubs by standards of morality that pertain to the value of human beings, not one of them at the top is going to come out smelling roses.
Of course that’s true. I always understood that the values bit was, for the club at least, a marketing spiel. But that’s ok. I agreed with them and liked them, so I’ll buy.
I also agree it’s a matter of degrees. As you say, it seems to be expanding the ruthlessness further with finances over the human aspect in mind. I don’t like that.
I also especially dislike that Arsenal pulled an offer that had been agreed to, without even informing our longest serving player of it. That is utterly classless, and if all previous anecdotal evidence is to be taken into account, completely new. Even going back to before Wenger took over.
And before anyone brings up Ornstein again, he specifically said not to quote him as saying that, because he’s careful about what he reports. What he reported was that a deal was close but a contract never placed in front of Ramsey. Ramsey told us what happened. I believe him. And neither the club, nor any details reported since contradict him.
Sanllehi’s just a guy under whose watch Barcelona as a club were found guilty of making secret payments for Neymar, and received a ban for breaching youth transfer rules, who forced out a guy who recovered from cancer, and put Qatar on their shirts when it was a proud tradition to not have any sponsorship. The guy who apparently is guided on transfers more by his contacts than from the perspective of deep scouting and intelligent rebuild. But winning excuses everything, right? There’s apparently a twitter campaign in Saudi Arabia for MBS to take over Arsenal instead of ManU. That would help us win. Anyone for it?
And look, I’ll concede business can be cut-throat. You can’t be saints. We weren’t ever that. I also don’t mind Sanllehi being at Arsenal. But as an attack dog. Not the top dog.
Being Chelsea without the same money is a recipe for disaster. Even Chelsea are struggling because they no longer have the most money.
“…a twitter campaign in Saudi Arabia for MBS to take over Arsenal instead of ManU.”
First, not being critical, but interested in ‘where’ you caught wind of that. I can locate where it is ‘a thing’– but tried and could not find more than a whiff.
As a philosophical thought experiment– it’s a pretty good one. Teeters on a political edge too. Then a couple of 2-ton weights drop on top of any reality of it happening.
One from the purchasing side of the equation. Being the differential in estimated value of the brands of ManU and Arsenal. United comes in about +40% higher fiscally. If you’re buying a club? Buying because you want the global marketing appeal of the higher valued brand? Or the bargain of a lower-priced club– where whitewashing the reputation of a nation-state through sports– brings true value. That’s a conundrum.
Then, are we fans grading billionaires on an even scale– or on a curve? Is Stan Kroenke so different from Mohammed bin Salman? Sure, one doesn’t seem to respect £3.8B as much as the other– but then their goals are different. No matter which, seems we don’t really like any billionaires at all– as much as we do like the cash invested (though it’s a shame there aren’t a few more Vichai Srivaddhanaprabhas wanting to get into the game). And honestly, I’m not too sure the Crown Prince could bid profitably high enough– to convince Stan to hand over the keys to AFC (and would the naming rights for the stadium get a bit fuzzy then too?).
Anyhoo. Here’s a link to the piece (Forbes) where I drew my valuations of world football clubs:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2018/06/12/forbes-releases-15th-annual-list-of-the-worlds-most-valuable-soccer-teams/#748b914e4762
jw1
I miss Arsene and Arsenal
Kaius, youre a pretty smart commenter, so I dont know why you keep veering off into the weeds so often on this subject. Case in point, on Railoa et al….
It was not a question, and I don’t argue in favour of the previous stance. In fact, I don’t care. I want us to get the best deals. So there was no point doing a deep sea dive on something no on is arguing for.
The Ozil/Elneny argument and being “picked on salary” is just plain ridiculous. Sorry, it is. If anybody was arguing in favour of that, Jenkinson would be starting over Holding, Iwobi wouldn’t be in the squad, and Mustafi would be an undroppable.
But are our salaries a problem? Correct. It is not right that Mhki, the Sanchez makeweight, is earning close to 200k (more than twice the captain) and Ozil is earning 5x what he is. But the way that we are trying to weasel our way out of Ozil’s is wrong.
The line about “veering off into the weeds” is pure projection.
For me, Özil/Ramsey and values aren’t the central compelling drama of the season some of you keep making it out to be, thread after thread on here.
Interesting piece by Jon Liew on today’s Arsenal.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/stan-kroenke-arsenal-bate-jonathan-liew-a8788241.html
(Liew, rather controversially perhaps, calls Ozil a “wonderful attacking talent”, and brackets him with Auba and Laca. Im pretty sure he’ll get called out for that act of heresy 😉 )
Best bit for me:
“Claude stares listlessly into space, like a man who’s seen all of our futures. Troopz wears the haunted, crumpled look of a firebrand preacher who’s taken a job in telesales. Robbie grins desperately into the camera, trying and failing to congeal his thoughts on a Torreira-Xhaka midfield two into a tangible emotion. The result is less viral soapbox, and more a bunch of middle-aged blokes arguing about who has the worse lower back pain.”
haha! so good!
I get the idea that Arsenal leadership is making a business decision relative to Ozil. I’m not too bothered by the “values” side of that one. Completely in agreement that paying him that much money was a mistake, as he’s not been consistent enough to justify it.
But I also think the current Ozil freeze-out(and I’m not sure how else to describe not even having him on the bench as an option), is also a bad business move.
1. If you want to try to move him and get at least some value back for him, you need to play him at least a little to show that he can still play at decent level.
2. More importantly, our attack has been pretty sucky lately. We couldn’t even score against Bate. It’s pretty hard to believe Ozil wouldn’t help that at all. If this poor offense causes us to finish 5th or 6th and fall out of the EL(possibly being knocked out by Bate), we both lose out on CL money again, and also on recruiting prestige. Those things may cost us more in the long run than the Ozil pay pack is costing us.