Sorry that I haven’t posted for a few days but I’ve been away at a work conference and very busy.
I didn’t get to watch the match yesterday and so, I have no comment other than “we won, yay!”
I also see that there is almost no news on the Aaron Ramsey front. No news here is bad news, folks. It means that Ramsey is refusing to sign and also refusing to be shopped around by the club. He’s got Arsenal in the back of a Karmann Ghia here.
The club could still sign him (like Ozil) or trade him in January (like Alexis) so if you’re the hopeful type, you still have that. For me, though, I think he’s 100% off and said my goodbyes a month ago.
I’ve written about his stats before and I don’t have to remind people that he’s a once in a generation midfielder. His work rate is astounding and his ability to get forward, score, pass, and to play defense makes him one of those players, like Paul Pogba, who you can build a team around. He’s a massive loss for Arsenal if he does go.
The thing I keep coming back to with all of this is Ivan Gazidis. I know he’s got a lot of goodwill for showing Wenger the door and Unai the hallway but Ramsey should have been signed to a new deal two or even three years ago and that is his fault.
Gazidis is the one who let the Arsene Wenger contract chaos happen. That chaos meant that players were always going to be uncertain of their future at the club and reticent to re-sign. I know that Ozil got a new deal but look at how much we had to pay him to keep him at the club. If you’re an Aaron Ramsey why would you sign for Arsenal for any less than Ozil? Especially when you’re going to get a massive signing bonus when you sign up for Tottenham, Man U, Man City, or Chelsea next summer.
Ramsey is getting Ozil money next summer, maybe more because he counts as homegrown, you can bank on that. If Arsenal want to keep him, that’s what they have to offer.
I know a lot of people have a lot of helpful suggestions but there is nothing Arsenal can do at this point. You can’t just “sell him” as suggested because he doesn’t have to sign. You can’t bench him because then you’re paying someone to do nothing. Plus, my understanding is that if a club were to just bench a player he could sue to get out of his contract.
There are some things the club could do to punish him: I think not playing him in cup competitions would be fair treatment. If he wants to be purely rational about his contract then we should treat him like a workhorse. Don’t let him get forward as much as he likes, make him play a more defensive role (we have enough forwards), and only let him play in the Premier League. Imagine if Emery wins the Europa League but Ramsey doesn’t get a medal? Or if we win any of the other competitions and he doesn’t get to play. Maybe that’s harsh, but it’s also harsh for him to hold Arsenal to ransom.
But I doubt Arsenal will do any of that. They will probably keep up with the very clear attempt to woo him that they have been doing on the official site. It would be great if this all works but I really think it won’t. He’s going to be professional and rational and play his part, then next summer he’s going to say that he’s “off for a new adventure” and “wants to thank the fans for the memories”.
I wish he would stay and I would love some good news about him signing this week. But for some reason this feels like the end of the Ramsey era.
Ramsey is by no stretch of the imagination comparable to Pogba.
How many injuries have the club babysat him through?
isn’t this the guy who loses the ball every third pass. He is now 27. Is he better than Niles?
The sooner we get rid the better..
Would have rather kept Jack.
… And please DO NOT compare him to Ozil. DON’T you dare.
Try a comparison matrix with Ramsey, Pogba and Wilshere, and you will have a big surprise.
http://7amkickoff.com/index.php/2018/02/09/folks-i-think-this-ramsey-guy-might-be-good/
Tim did a comparison of Ramsey and Pogba’s stats. You’ll eat your words after reading the stats. I would suggest you find the post and see for yourself before writing Ramsey off. I can’t believe you also said you’ll prefer if Wilshere stayed over Ramsey. I sincerely hope you find that post *seems Tim has actually shared the link to the post below
We’ve been watching this summer blockbuster for years, and since Ramsey pulled out of the game in Dublin, I’ve grown steadily pessimistic about this not being the endgame. I so want to be wrong. But this has a familiar smell and feel.
And so, Mr Emery…
Your first league game as Arsenal manager is against the runaway champions, who (despite missing KDB) looked ominous today
Your makeshift LB and your uncertain RB will be facing Sane and Mahrez, and your backline a hungry Aguero with plenty to prove after the Argentina mess
Your CEO is very likely jumping ship two months after hiring you
Your CEO is very likely jumping ship after overseeing the biggest structural and managerial change in the clubs history — a new setup that is as yet unproven
He’s very likely leaving with the contract of one of your most senior, most influential players unresolved
There’s a chance that said player could leave the club this window
Welcome to England, Mr Emery.
I’m so happy we face City at the start of the season otherwise we’d have no chance. Along with KDB here is a full 11 of those who didn’t start;
Ederson;
Danilo, Kompany, Otamendi,
Zinchenko; Delph, Gundogan; de
Bruyne, D. Silva, Sterling; Jesus
Kompany was on the bench. Mendy, who played, is miles better than Delph. Stones played. Walker also played, and played decently.
btw, it looks as if they and Spurs called back their late rounds World Cup players earlier than we did, and their pre-season prep look much more advanced than our players’ (who left earlier).
All the City players I mentioned were in squads that were involved in the last 2 days of the tournament.
After watching City today, I’m convinced they will tear us a new one next week. We’ve looked pretty average this preseason, especially at the back, and City will punish us. Suddenly not looking forward to our first game…
Well said. The man has his hands full for sure.
Ha!! Ramsey Era…Thats a joke…Constantly injured and bit part player(Yes even considering “that FA cup goal” ). We have sold better players, more effective ones and have survived. Ramsey, in my opinion has already been replaced or at least his work rate has. I have being forever Wenger admirer but I am glad he has been replaced by Unai who places more trust in team-play than solo talent(moments of individual brilliance)
Yeah, while there’s a fair amount to be optimistic about at the moment, this isn’t one of those things. While Ramsey can be one of the best box to box midfielders in Europe when playing well(see Euro 2016), there are 2 issues:
1. Perhaps due to the horror leg break, he gets injured a lot…this likely isn’t going to get better as he gets older.
2. He’s at his best in a position pretty similar to what Ozil plays. Meaning it’s going to be hard to accommodate both. Frankly, if it weren’t for the injury issues, I’d almost rather have Ramsey at this point.
So I’m pessimistic. And worse, as pointed out, he ticks a homegrown box for PL teams, so he will command a BIG premium when out of contract.
Steve are you actually in SLC?
Well, Holladay technically, but basically yes. Good to see that’s there’s another Gooner here. Most of my friends are Liverpool supporters.
Here’s what I think about Ramsey:
– If he wants to leave, no problem. He’s given us many years of his career, and we’ve given him a decent salary, medical care, and a lot of mismanagement. I’d say we’re even.
– If he wants to go on a free, no problem. He’s entitled to do whatever he wants with his contract, and if that maximizes his payday then fair play to him. He’s under no obligation to help the club get a good fee for him. So no hard feelings at all.
– Will we miss him? Yes. He’s a good player, and he’s grown quite important despite not having a nailed down role.
– Will we miss him a lot? I don’t think so. He has good seasons and bad seasons, and has never been fit for long enough or consistently good for long enough to make me – and apparently a lot of others – feel he’s irreplaceable. This is not Cesc. This is not RVP. If we goes we suffer a little, unless we can replace him – directly or indirectly – and I think there’s a lot of players who can indirectly replace him. Players who can add more solidity or dribbling in the middle, or more pace and trickery on the wing. It’s late in the window but not impossible.
So there. Not too bothered either way.
Of course the club can’t FORCE Ramsey to be sold this window, but they could be doing their utmost to make him want to be sold if they know he’s not going to sign at all, or not for a realistic amount of money. They could have told him two month ago, “look, Aaron, we love you, we want you to re-sign and be our new captain, yada yada yada, but just so you know, if you don’t re-sign by (say) August 1, we’ll have no choice but to write you out of our plans for the upcoming season, which will mean (a) shopping you around to every big club in Europe, and (b) making it VERY uncomfortable for you for the whole of next season if you refuse to go and refuse to sign.”
Given that ultimatum (and a very generous new deal on the table), some players would be mercenaries and refuse to sign just to get the big payday in 2019; but plenty of players would choose to re-sign for Arsenal or else say, “thanks for the memories folks,” and bugger off (to Chelski, ‘Pool, wherever) this summer.
Have we really tried this tactic? I very much doubt it. Of course I don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors, but I think it’s reasonable for fans to question whether we’ve done everything we can not to be in a situation where he runs his contract all the way down. I take it that’s what people are expressing when they criticize the club for being in this situation again. Plenty of clubs deal with contract situations like this nowadays, and more often than not, they get some decent money for the player before the bitter end (or, occasionally, get great service right up until the bitter end, which I suppose could happen this season, but I’m not holding my breath).
Sure, the players ultimately hold all the cards in these situations, but most players want to play football asap in a team that values them at a club where they feel at home and that matches their ambitions. If Ramsey didn’t feel we matched his ambitions and he wanted to go someplace to improve himself (like the Ox) or to have a better chance to win trophies (like RvP) he’d be off at the end of this window (it’s not like he’s a kid anymore, who can afford to write off a whole season of his career!). Even Alexis was more than willing to sign for City last summer; we just refused City’s offer. So if Ramsey really flat out refuses to move this summer, even if a big English or European club comes in for him (and they surely will at 40m or less), just so he can run down his contract, his only realistic motivation is money. He might be that ruthless and greedy, but I doubt it. And if he is that ruthless and greedy, then there’s no sense mourning a player willing to make such a d*ck move.
PS I don’t remember ever hearing of a player who successfully sued to get out of his contract because the club, e.g., made him train in the reserves. Lots of threats have been made by a player’s agent against a club, but when has this sort of thing ever worked against a club who are being tough (but reasonable) against a contract rebel? Am I forgetting something?
Me neither. The Winston Bogarde story is interesting, though. Chelsea at one point tried to ease him out by not playing him. The problem for them was that Bogarde was quite prepared to take his massive wages and not play. A contract was a contract, far as he was concerned. It ended up making him far less marketable when his contract was up, but he became a notorious example of a player who refused to let a club budge him. Most players won’t do what he did, though.
Here’s a good take on that. https://www.ajaxdaily.com/2017/i-may-one-worst-buys-history-premiership-i-dont-care/
Would a club today make a contract rebel play with the U23s? Arsenal have never been that type of club. In fact, I think we’re a bit on the soft side when it comes to that. Star players at or near the end of their contracts have been rolling the club for a long time — from Vieira, to Henry to Flamini, to RVP, to Nasri, to Alexis, Ozil, Wilshere, Ox and now Ramsey. Even players with time to run on their contracts (like Anelka and Fabregas) forced their way out.
Im one of those who think that Ramsey should be sold rather than allowed to start the season uncommitted to the club, although as Tim points out, we can’t make him leave if he doesn’t want to. He’s under no obligation to deliver us a transfer fee instead of seeing out his contract. And we’re not going to Bogarde him. So this is 99% on the goodwill of the player.
One thing we can and should do is not give him the captaincy (oh I know about the ‘5 captains’ thing, but in practice one person is going to regularly do the job in out strongest XI, unless rested, injured or rotated). That’s not going to sit well with the fans or the rest of the squad.
The thing is, if a club like Barca are interested in you now, you move. No guarantees they’ll want you in a year, especially if it’s a bad one or you’re benched. So it often doesn’t make sense to wait.
Yep.
Claude,
Yes, but the case of Bogarde is instructive. He “got away with” doing what he did, but at the cost of utterly wasting a large chunk of his football career.
I didn’t deny that Ramsey could “pull a Bogarde” (this, I take it, is Tim’s basic point). I just questioned whether, if Arsenal “pulled a Chelsea” and made him train with the reserves, Ramsey could (at all straightforwardly) get his contract terminated. I really doubt that.
But I agree with you that Arsenal won’t do that to Ramsey, and they probably shouldn’t. Still, other options are open. Suppose, if he refuses to sign and refuses to be sold, we keep him in the first team squad but knock him well down the pecking order, so that he’s not starting at all, except for Europa League and League Cup games (think Walcott and Coquelin’s role in the first half of last season).
Of course that would hurt Arsenal as it would be a waste of his talents, but it’s a game of chicken: it hurts both parties, and the point is to see who blinks first. It’s probably far too late for us to be making threats like that now, but we could have made it clear that that would be his fate (“you won’t be part of the manager’s plans unless you re-sign”) two months ago.
Put it this way:
If you’re Aaron Ramsey, 27 going on 28, and your options are:
(a) moving now to a big European club (let’s say Chelsea), for a significant pay raise (but much less than you would make next summer), to be a key component of a side chasing the biggest titles now, or
(b) stay at Arsenal in order to run your contract down, knowing you’ll be a club pariah for your mercenary stance and virtually only be playing in the Europa and League cup matches, in the *hope* that you’ll have an even bigger payday coming from some team or other next summer
who in their right minds would choose (b)???
Answer: only people who are overwhelmingly focused on money alone. I know there are people like that, but I just think it’s a bizarre stance for someone who’s already a millionaire many times over, and whose opportunity to play professional football is brief and shrinking fast.
I don’t think Ramsey is that greedy. I think he’s in a game of chicken with Arsenal–happy to run his contract down, happy to go to the right (big, rich) club if they come along now, even happy to “pull an Ozil” and sign in mid-season for 300k a week if it comes to that–and I suspect Arsenal haven’t done enough to call his bluff.
That’s a pretty good analysis.
Something literally just occurred to me, though. With the new structure, the contract isn’t Emery’s problem. It’s Gazidis’. I know it’s not this simple and straightforward, but Emery (strictly speaking) need only worry himself with Ramsey’s fitness and availability, whether he has him for one season or four seasons in the future.
He has always been careful to say (1) the player is important to his plans (2) the contract situation is between the player and the club. Point 2 is important. Very important. This is what Ivan put in place once he forced Wenger out.
If Im Emery, Im thinking that Ramsey’s contract eff-up was Ivan’s problem. Meanwhile, I have a league to compete in and cups to try to win. And Im playing Ramsey (and giving him the armband) if he’s fit. Even if he leaves next June. I’m on the hook for results. Why let someone else’s incompetence limit my options?
So, to your scenarios, I don’t see Emery limiting his involvement. Team selections are, after all, still the head coach’s prerogative,
Further, I think that any scenario where a player’s involvement is limited because of his contract situation would cause ill-will, would harden a players’s resolve to leave, and cause him to coast, intentionally or not. It could also easily poison the dressing room.
Once you go to final year unsigned, ALL the power resides with the player. Limiting him, depending on who he is, could be spiting your face.
I dont think that Emery, a new coach tasked with getting us back into the top 4, has the luxury of limiting his selection options. And why should he? He didnt cause the problem.
Wondering why we’re doubting what’s happened since last January– to be the modus operandi — now?
Ozil basically had AW over a barrel. Ramsey really doesn’t.
There was no way the club could allow both Sanchez and Ozil exit for little to nothing last January. Sven was here. Famhy on-board too. But the linchpin Raul? Was only here figuratively until a limited role in late-January– to push Auba and Mkhi over the line.
Theorizing that Marcus McGuane (sent to Barca on 1/30) was the price for allowing Sanllehi to work for Arsenal in advance of his February 1st sign-on date. Probably ONLY if Raul were able to get those deals done. The cutthroat moves in that TW were the portents of experience.
I really can’t see Raul or Huss or Sven or Ivan wringing hands, clutching pearls, or rending garments over the Ramsey situation.
And you can be certain– this won’t happen again.
jw1
I think Ramsey may be our LANS this winter.
Wait a minute! It’s only logical if arsenal are playing the wait game with Ramsey.. first of all, he’s not walking into the starting 11 of any top 5 team in England and that’s a banker! Secondly, he’s not the kinda player that’d give you at least 30 games a season and as such, won’t command higher pay compared with players that play same position in any top team in England.. he’s just gonna lose in the end.. any player who’d command a pay rise would have to prove it! He’s just scared of serious competition and that’s it! We’ve got Lucas and guen stefany who have shown promise and willingness to fight for their places in the team.. he should be doing same!!
I like Ramsey and what he brings to the table but he is not indispensable. If he goes, he goes and we all move on. It is not as if Aaron Ramsey was all alone in the midfield trying to will Arsenal to a title. He was a part of what we were over the last 10 years for all our successes and failures.
Emery does not feel beholden to Aaron Ramsey nor does Ramsey feel beholden to Unai Emery so this is a good time for this to happen.
I think Claude’s nailed it. emery is going to play who he wants to play – as he should. I’m not dreading Ramsey’s departure, as others have said. I’ll miss him but I don’t think the team will be devastated by it.
I am a bit more surprised by the news about Chambers than I am about Ramsey still being unsigned. A lot of people have suggested Chambers might be working his way into the starting XI this season. And while we have several CB’s, I think Chambers is much stronger than Holding, IMO. So why we are sending him away on loan baffles me. Unless there’s another signing impending. I expect one more surprise deal before the window closes.
With Ramsey it’s not just his overall althelticism, workrate and contribution, he also scores and makes important goals – late goals, equalizers, winners. Sometimes he’s a little too ambitious or selfish but it’s that kind of focused desire and belief that’s hard to replace.
I’m not saying he’s irreplaceable, and “once in a generation” is a bit strong for me (I’m old-fashioned but it seems like the league used to be full of players who could do everything and do it well) but if this is where he and the club part ways then Arsenal will certainly be poorer for it.
I’m still hopeful that he’s basically sounding out what life is going to be like under the new regime before committing himself to what would probably be his last big contract.
I was all for selling him by a deadline etc. But here’s the thing. A rigid policy while good that is clear, can ignore the issues of the case. Of course, as Tim points out that policy is not workable anyway because the player holds the power.
Personally, I was sure Ozil will sign, and I think Ramsey will sign too, for less money than Ozil at that.
Ramsey and the club seem to generally want the same thing. For him to stay. So the assumption that it is a ‘contest’ between who has the real power seems misplaced. Of course it’s a negotiation and both parties have options but supposing the difference isn’t insurmountable, why would you as a club risk alienating an important player?
On Ozil’s contract 1)he basically played a whole year at 140k when his market value was much higher so consider it back pay. 2)he’s the best in the world at what he does and in the context of the league, he’s not overpaid by much, if at all.
Ramsey will get around 250k and will sign on. That’s my prediction.
Fully agree on Gazidis though. He’s also got to shoulder some responsibility for the past couple of years. Yes, Arsene ran the show, but, if only to modernise, Gazidis seemingly created some problems that need not have been. And that’s ok, but if he leaves for Milan now, it’s a cowardly move IMO.
Btw, how much does Pogba earn? If we’re constantly comparing Ramsey to Pogba maybe that’s the real benchmark for his wages?
WRT Gadzidis, on paper now we seem to be in good shape in terms of structure and management, like Shard I have issues with how we got here, and personally think that things could and should have been handled better.
But I don’t really see how leaving now would be cowardly, if anything the opposite. He’s done the hard and unpopular work of overseeing a regime change which should pay off further down the line. If he leaves he won’t be around to share in the success or claim any credit.
The assumption seems to be that things look bad and Gadzidis is “jumping ship” as Claude phrases it upthread. Not sure I agree with that, it’s a pretty pessimistic take.
Not sure about things looking bad. But just after you push through changes, is not when you get to say my job is done (unless that was the express purpose of your job) There is a huge chance of instability just after big organisational changes, and it should be his responsibility to see it through the initial phase.
And no way does he not claim credit if it works. After the way he put himself front and centre he’s basically used the club’s restructuring as personal PR. He’ll be leaving on the basis of that, and will claim it has nothing to do with him if it goes wrong. Hence, cowardly.
I agree. It’s a classic big exec/politician’s move.
Probably not the right phrase, Greg. “Leaving” would have worked…
Are Chelsea in the champions league ?
No
For the life of me? Cannot see Ivan taking the Milan job. He has only just put his vision in place for Arsenal– after having to endure AW pulling FA Cup rabbits-from-hats for 4 years to retain his job.
A chef creates his pièce de résistance, places it into the oven– then walks out.
To take a job rebuilding a pizzeria that had burned to the ground.
OK. So the weather is better in Milan.
You take a vacation, not a job.
jw1
Some talk that he’ll also get shares at the club, plus higher wages. Also, in some ways, maybe a less challenging job because the expectations are lower due to their current predicament, and an easier league.
The league has growth potential too, and his being there might be a way for him to get in as a league/Super League executive too. After all, he has already been involved in setting up the MLS. Juventus’ chairman was pushing for a SL last season. Gazidis might sense a way in there.
I can see why he would take up the job (and he’s had plenty opportunity to deny that he’s leaving) I just think it would be ‘wrong’ to leave Arsenal just after the changes we’ve had under his supervision.
Like most Arsenal fans, I like Ramsey and I want him to stay. I don’t blame him for trying to maximize his earning potential – it’s what he should be doing anyway. I do blame our clusterf**k of a front office and their mind boggling incompetency when it comes to handling player contracts. That’s three of our best players running down their contracts in the last 6 months. I don’t see how this would fall on Wenger though. This is very much in the job description of our CEO.
I actually made this comment on Arseblog news a couple of weeks ago in reply to a poster who was being very effusive of Gazidis because of our increased revenue. When I objectively judge Gazidis on what he has achieved here, I find him lacking. He now has the support of the fans for bringing in a new manager (a couple of years late if you ask me) but when I see how much we are lagging behind Liverpool in our commercial revenue, I think that’s a better lens for looking at how he has performed rather than looking at our total revenue because most of that increase is driven by the popularity of the league and not because of IG’s accomplishments. Commercial revenue and managing player contracts are two of the most important tasks of the chief executive and in that regards, he has failed quite miserably. Hopefully, this is the last of it and going forward we will do better in this department but boy is this frustrating. We are the only big club who repeatedly does this with their best players.
As for the football, I can’t wait for the season to start but I have tempered my expectations. The top two will come down to City and Liverpool, followed by United in third. I expect that under Sarri, Chelsea is going to be better than us (they might even finish third if United capitulates) and Harry Kane FC, barring injury to Harry Kane, will finish above us as well. I hope to score 10 – 12 more points than we did than last season. That might get us to fifth if luck goes our way.
To be clear, I am not upset if Ramsey leaves. He is a good player but not irreplaceable. Its more upsetting to me that we are not in control of the contract situation and that’s very much in line with a long-term trend which speaks volumes about our chief executive.
I think we could make top 4.. Just because I’m optimistic 😁😁
Cojent reply Shard.
Several details of which I was unaware.
jw1
*Cogent…