Arsenal announce the Torreira (stats dump and early thoughts)

51 comments

1. Maitland-Niles now has the #15 shirt. The #7 is Mikhitaryan’s. Apart from that, it was a good article.

   1. I fixed it, thanks. I’d still like to see him played wide right!

      1. He played as a right sided midfielder when on loan at Ipswich.

      2. Wide right?
         Isn’t that where Mikhi plays in a good partnership with Bellarin?

2. Curious to know who led AFC in ‘failed short passes’ and ‘number of times dribbled’ as these are key defensive stats

   1. Xhaka was third in the League in failed short passes (behind de Bruyne and Eriksen). He plays much deeper than them, struggles to win the ball back, and plays a much less attacking role so his failed short passes are a much bigger problem.

      Xhaka also led Arsenal in being dribbled.

3. Where’s the announcement? Checked arsenal Twitter and the .com, didn’t see anything.

   1. You’re right, it’s not there (yet).

4. I’m curious about torreira and xhaka too. I wonder if Torreira and Xhaka fight for the spot – after all, what gives Xhaka the right to a starting place?

   I wonder if we see an all-action midfield of AMN and Torreira behind Ramsey. A parallel may be Spurs: Torreira and AMN might be Dembele and Dier (maybe?) and Ramsey is Alli. I don’t know. Alternatively, we structure our midfield like Sampdoria: Torreira is the deepest, with Xhaka and Ramsey flanking him perhaps, and Ozil behind two strikers. That might work, but relies on Kolasinac/Nacho and Bellerin/Licht for width. But whither Miki?

   Or perhaps both? Perhaps tactical flexibility and rotation are what this squad needs?

   Frankly I like that, for the first time in at least a decade, we’re tactically unpredictable. Hopefully we can have a blistering half season before other teams figure us out.

5. 1. By the looks of things, I’m guessing the club think Torreira can play as a (fairly defensive) number 8, because his skill-set seems appropriate for a “shuttling role” like late career Santi. This means if we play a 3 man midfield Xhaka would sit the deepest, sometimes slotting into the backline (like Motta); Torreira would be on one side of him (but stay pretty deep and close to Xhaka in the buildup, a la Verratti, who he’s been compared with), and Ramsey as the second number 8 on the other side who’s freer to bomb on when we’re in possession.
   This seems to make a ton of sense to me.

   2. Alternatively, we could play those three but with Xhaka-Torreira a very well balanced midfield duo and Ramsey as a 10 with Ozil wide right (or Ozil as a 10 and Ramsey gone, if he doesn’t sign).

   3. Alternatively, Torreira could replace Xhaka and partner Rambo (or AMN, etc). Or they could play together in some games, and rotate for the same role in other games.

   All this to say he looks to have the mobility, energy, quick feet, passing range, and aggression in the tackle that means he could play alongside Xhaka or replace him in the squad. And pretty much play with any of our other midfielders too. Obviously this is all based on second hand info, youtube clips, etc, but if he’s roughly the kind and quality player he looks to be, I think it’s an absolutely brilliant signing, pretty much the ideal midfielder to bring in, as he solves multiple problems in our midfield (no Santi-type, no proper DM) at once!

6. There’s been no announcement, mate. And no need making Xhaka out to be so bad. Some of these stats are influenced by how a team plays and how much defending the side does.
   As a team, most opponents stand off the Arsenal side, thus limiting the number of defensive stats our defensive players show. As it stands, Xhaka remains a linchpin of that midfield and Torreira won’t be changing that.

7. The more I look at and read about Torreira, the less I think that he’s being bought to play with Xhaka. He does what Xhaka does (conduct from the back with long passes), albeit at a lower percentage (source: Tim’s Arsenal Review article); plus he adds defence, bite, ball security in a crowded midfield, speed of foot, speed of thought and ferrying ability.

   I said about 4 posts ago that he’s a bit of a combination of Kante and Santi (Kanti?). I think that not only is Xhaka’s place in danger, but his continuity at Arsenal could be as well. That won’t be the case if Torreira makes him a squad player, but I cant see him becoming that. Xhaka sometimes gives me a Vermaelan vibe. I loved the Belgian striding out of defence and banging in goals, but man, when he was dropped, he disappeared from view, captaincy notwithstanding.

   I’m down with a 4-2-3-1, or a 4-3-3. Even in a 4-3-3, I’m not sure I’d play Xhaka, because Torreira can perform some of his main tasks. Oh, I dunno. Choices, choices. If Jack re-signs, we have one midfielder too many, and he (Jack), Elneny, Torreira, Ramsey, Xhaka and AMN represent 6 players contesting 2 to 3 slots. Yeah I know that injuries, cups, rotation etc mean games for everyone, but the team players its strongest XI more often than not.

   Choices, choices, but man I like Torreira’s game, age and transfer fee. And yes, I’m glad that we didn’t offer Samp a dollar more than the value of his buyout clause.

   Hope I’m wrong about Xhaka, though. He’s one player I’d like to see what Emery can do with in a well drilled and coached unit.

   1. I think Xhaka will both stay and play. His major weakness is his lack of defensive awareness, but he was improving on his defensive positioning anyway. Torreira next to him should help him, as should AMN or Elneny actually because all 3 of them are more defensively aware and have the energy to cover a lot of ground. And Emery should be able to work with Xhaka. Xhaka from deep, and Ozil (and Miki?) further ahead make for a creative team. A team of ‘protagonists’ if you will.

      PS. Just because this narrative still bothers me. We didn’t add the pound to the Suarez release clause, we MET the release clause of OVER 40m. I know Tim now says it didn’t exist but John Henry said it did, that Arsenal met it, and Liverpool decided to not honour it.

      1. As far as I understodd it it wasn’t a straight up release cluase so much, as an ambigously worded clause that stated that negotiations could start at 40m. Herny refused though and Arsenal would’ve had to contest the claus ein court. Suarez’ heart wasn’t really set on Arsenal anyways and it appears his agent , Guardiola’s brother, lead Arsenal on to leverage the interest in a better deal and a promise to a sale to Barca (with whom he probably already made contact). It was all rather naive from Arsenal’s standpoint.

         1. What kind clause puts in a value to negotiate at? That sounds like nonsense to me. Doesn’t it to you?

            Suarez’s heart was set on Barcelona, but I really think he wanted to move to Arsenal as a stepping stone. He had bitten a player the season before, and he seemingly did this whenever he wanted a move. He went to the papers to say he wants to leave for Arsenal. He went to the PFA to force it through. The PFA didn’t support him, and he chose not to escalate, and took the improved contract and a future promise of Barca. Good decision. But it doesn’t show that we were naive or that he didn’t want to come. We knew we were getting him for like 2 years before he pushed for a move again.

            By the way, I didn’t want him at Arsenal.

            1. “What kind clause puts in a value to negotiate at? That sounds like nonsense to me.”

               EVERY release clause has a numerical theshold. Seriously, Shard? 😀

               If you have information that Suarez’ release clause was NOT 40m, please do provide it.

               The main facts of the case (1) He had a 40m clause (2) we offered 40m +1 Pound, are not in dispute. Except, that is, solely by you. For reasons that are utterly baffling.

      2. We did offer 40 million and a pound. Even Wenger admitted that it was an unfortunate pisstake. Not because you dislike a narrative that makes Arsene look bad does it become untrue, Shard. We did meet the clause, but we didn’t need to rub Liverpool’s faces in it. Even Arsene, diplomatically, with hindsight, has admitted as much.

         1. We offered that because his release clause was for a bid OVER 40m. Not =40m, but >40m . Wenger said it was not meant to be provocative even if it could be interpreted to be.

            Later, I think sometime two seasons ago, probably before we faced Liverpool(?), Wenger did say that we mistakenly believed there was a release clause. I think he was just trying to draw a line under the whole thing rather than actually talk about whether the clause was there.

            I know the PFA chairman said something wishy washy while saying no clause and telling Suarez not to push it further, but after they ‘won’ that round, Liverpool’s owner said on American TV that the clause was there and was met, but because they realised contracts in football don’t mean anything, they decided to not honour it.

            Make of that what you will. But the pound on top was to meet the clause as it stood. Not to rub Liverpool’s nose in it. They leaked that to get the media to talk about this supposed ‘outrage’ rather than the issue of them undervaluing Suarez in their contract (Like Barca were accused of with Neymar) You even had our own fans saying we should have paid them 50m and there’d be a deal. Which is exactly the reaction Liverpool wanted by spreading this version of events, that Arsenal disrespected them, rather than (simply) met the clause.

            1. It

               WAS

               provocative!

               And the Arsenal manager later admitted that it was. You can’t spin hard facts into what you choose to believe, Shard.

               The notion that it was provocative because Liverpool later told everyone what to believe is nonsense. I remember clearly that it was met with instant ridicule — including from gooners, present company included. We looked like a bunch of smug d1cks, even if, technically, we met the requirements of the clause.

               From Arsene’s comments, it wasn’t his idea, but nothing illustrated the dysfunction of his total control, more than the fact that his team didn’t anticipate how their schoolboy negotiation ploy would be received. Or nobody piped up and said, this looks like a pisstake.

      3. “He was very close to signing. We had an agreement with the player( Suarez).
         We had been wrongly advised he had a clause, with a minimal clause, but we had an agreement with the player, you can ask him”

         Part of interview Wenger gave to Being sport in 2017 where he talked about transfers and other things.

         I don’t know why it’s so hard for Wenger supporters to admit what he himself had admitted already but my guess is in their minds admitting to it would somehow tarnish his reputation.

         In an even more extreme example of attempting to protect Wenger’s reputation, some ( a certain pro Wenger blogger) have denied that the offer for Suarez had been made in good faith at all , and it was just Wenger trying to rattle the player and Liverpool, as if that was something to be proud of if you’re a Wenger backer.

         In the same interview Wenger also talks about Suarez’s antics, suspensions,
         and how he no longer creates a headache for Barca on that front, while admitting Suarez still occasionally crosses the line play acting , which in Wenger’s opinion is something all good strikers do.

         I think the bid was a mistake( obviously)but I also believe the whole idea of Suarez at Arsenal was half baked.
         The only reason he hasn’t been a problem at Barca is because Messi is the top dog and Barca have been winning.
         Put Suarez into Arsenal line up circa 2013-14 and he would’ve been right back to biting people and demanding transfers in no time.
         If he was labeled a diver at Liverpool – the media darlings ,you can only imagine what treatment he would’ve received on that front at Arsenal.

         In any case I think it’s time to let go Shard

         1. I didn’t want him at Arsenal either.

            Yes, I know it’s time to let it go. But whatever be the clause, this idea that we paid 1 pound just to rub it in is not true and it bothers me that people state it as if it is. We put that in to meet the clause.

            1. No one’s denying that we put in the extra pound to meet the clause. No one’s arguing against your point there.

               But everyone, including Wenger and except you for some reason, saw it as deeply provocative.

               Whether we intended it to be or not, it was a pisstake. Whether you, Shard, ultimately liked him or wanted him to come is irrelevant. The fact is that Arsenal wanted Liverpool’s best player, and some clever deek bid 40 million and a pound. Oh, how they must have chuckled at their audacity in their management meeting. We know what’s in your player’s contract, and we are giving you the barest minimum over that. The 40m is not the flashpoint. It’s the Pound. It was schoolboy stuff. It didn’t need to be done like that. A fact, let me say for the umpteenth time, that Wenger himself has conceded.

               You’re looking a tad ridiculous choosing to die on this hill.

            2. I completely agree with you on this one Shard.
               The release clause was likely ‘over 40 million’ so Arsenal offered the necessary amount to trigger the sale.
               It’s kind of makes me sad how many arsenal fans sided, and continue to side with liverpool on this one. That arsenal fans think that the club should have paid up to 10 million in unnecessary fees is exactly why it’s good these fans aren’t in charge of anything. I’m guessing when they see a good bargain in store THEY always add on a few extra pounds so as not to ‘insult’ the store selling the product 🙂 .And let’s be real, Liverpool weren’t really upset about the £1, they were upset at losing a star player on the cheap because of their own buy out clause.

               If a person is selling a car for ‘over £500’ and I offer £501 and they get insulted by that, that’s THEIR problem and they’re the ones being the asshole.

               I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised so many fans would side with Liverpool against their own club. Especially when so many Arsenal fans STILL bring up how the club missed out on Alonso over a couple of million……….even though that deal clearly and publicly didn’t go through because Benitez couldn’t persuade Aston Villa to sell him Gareth Barry.

   2. I’d convey Torreira’s role in this more dramatic form. Our double pivot would comprise of Torreira and Torreira. Yes Torreira and Torreira. In every match at the least, one of Ramsey or Xhaka would start in place of one of the Torreiras.

      Simply put, our double pivot would mostly be Torreira/Ramasey or Torreira/Xhaka depending on whether he is instructed to play more as a DM or more as a B2B. Versatile is his name.

8. AMN plays in the middle……that is all 😉

9. A word about Soyuncu… he’s ridiculous fast. I mean almost Bellerin quick, it would seem to me. Even out of position, not many attackers will outrun him in a foot race. But he’s conservative with it, preferring to whack the ball to safety to a risky pass back to the keeper. His game is simple, no frills, low risk. An’ he quick quick. I really like the look of him.

   A lot of focus on Sokratis, but it looks to me like Soyuncu (if we get him) would be the truest like-for-like swap for Koscielny. Given that it’d probably be too risky to change your ENTIRE central defence, I see a continuing role for Mustafi, probably with Soyuncu. Chambers/Soyuncu is a possibility too. Is Emery bold enough to install Leno in goal, and in front of him two CBs whove never played in the ELP? I dont know that he is.

   We’re overloaded at CB, and likely to get a higher fee for Mustafi than Chambers, so… I dunno.

   Fullbacks — Licht, Bellerin, Monreal, Kolasinac
   CBs — Soyuncu (prob), Sokra (likely), Holding, Chambers, Mustafi, Koscielny. Who goes from that list. No Rob Holding, who’s young, and whose value we can grow way beyond 2m.

   But I like the thought of Soyuncu more than Sokratis.

   1. I agree in terms of raw capability, but Sokratis would add experience. I feel that is a big part of what we lacked last season. So…get both and sell Mustafi.

10. Emery said in an interview that he views 4141 as being the best for fressing.so I see xhaka infront of the back 4 while lucas ramsy or AMN infront of him.xhaka is goin nowhere

11. Defensively way better than xhaka but play making abilities not sure he’s so better for now.can get better.I feel xhaka still needed.rotation of midfield based on the opponent.

12. Not to forget elneny whose energy wiil suit the pressing game alongside lucas ramsy or AMN with xhaka behind them

13. I’ll be very happy to see Torreira announced if it’s going to happen. I can see him playing alongside any of our current midfielders. Looks like Shard called it, and Tim’s piece at the other place is very informative, thanks.

    “Number of times Xhaka adjusted his shin pads after the opponents scored and he had forgot to run back – 13”

    I realise this is only a throwaway comment, but still – let’s not Denilson the man.

    1. That happened once.
    2. His error was in going to ground and letting Pogba waltz past, not in “forgetting” to follow up. Decision-making in the tackle is his weakness, not tracking back. If we have to have narratives about players, let’s at least have the right ones.
    3. AMN was standing ten feet closer to Pogba and also didn’t follow up. I actually think AMN has a bigger problem in letting people run past him than Xhaka does, but again I don’t want to start a narrative.
    4. Is there an appropriate amount of time to wait after an opponent scores to adjust your shin pads? Because I know this annoyed people but I don’t know why.

14. I like our options in midfield if this is confirmed. Xhaka and Torreira are two good deep lying playmakers but of different sorts. Elneny and AMN bring energy. Ramsey adds the attacking threat and has a great engine as well. When Ramsey is’t playing, we could play Iwobi or Miki there.

    Good options. Young Adli would have been good to have too, but oh well. Maybe Joe Willock and someone else can get some games.

    Going with Claude’s view on our defenders. To me, Soyuncu, Sokratis, Mavropanos, Mustafi and to a lesser extent, Holding, all look the Kos type of defenders. Chambers is the only exception and for that reason I’d want him to stay and Mustafi to go if we get Soyuncu.

15. It sounds strange to me that the Guardian say Arsenal paid more to beat the competition from Napoli. I would think not paying the buyout clause upfront is more a sign of ‘cheapness’ if we were disposed towards being uncharitable. Paying in installments generally means you pay more. If Napoli want they can pay the buyout clause and there’s nothing (legally) that Sampdoria can do about it. Napoli’s hold up is apparently not the transfer fee (they’ll have the Jorginho money from City soon) but Torreira’s wage demands.

    1. I mean, in the end, who cares. They paid Sampdoria and we got our man. But the way the information is presented seems pointed as Tim described, just a bit of PR game. But I’m looking forward to not arguing how much or how we’re paying for XY.

16. Woah. City to visit us on the opening day, and we go to Chelsea the week after. Unai Emery and Arsenal getting no grace period.

    1. Our opportunity to make certain we remain the only “Invincibles”

    2. But maybe it is the best time to play them? They’re loaded with players in the WC, could play into our hands. Who knows how Chelsea will come out of the summer, so it might also be a good time to play them and after that it looks promising. we could theoretically lay down some early markers and then get into our groove.

    3. I’m expecting two *very* defensive performances in the first two games then.
       It seems as if we are (sensibly) building two first elevens, a breakdown-the-defences team and a counter-attacking team, something we’ve not really ever had. Even the Invincibles were more the latter than the former but of course when you have a front four composed of Pires, Henry, Bergkamp and Ljungberg scoring goals is not going to be a problem against most teams.

       1. Xhaka, Torreira, Elneny and Ozil are at the world cup. I guess only Ozil will go deep, though all the other 3 will hope to make the knockouts and from there, who knows.
          So who will we play in midfield? AMN and Elneny/Torreira (whoever is fresher?)
          I don’t think the home game will be defensive. We’ve been better against City when we attack. Not sure we could hold out just defending. But it will be interesting.

          1. Emery’s teams don’t just defend though, they try to control space against superior opponents, which at the moment I would suggest City are (not sure about Chelsea) in all areas except possibly the front line. PEA and Laca are two of the finest ‘half space’ forwards in the game. That’s a game where you want Welbeck at 9 rather than Özil at 10, if that makes any sense.

    4. This is to our advantage I would think. City’s players are very likely to be suffering from title winning/World Cup hangovers (late training camps for some, some might be missing altogether) and we’ll have our new manager bump in action. And we carry that momentum over into the game with Chelsea who still haven’t picked a new manager. I predict already we’re 2-0 to start the season.

17. According to ESPN, Adli is set to stay at PSG, which is a shame.

    1. We adli knew him…

18. Spurs’ new stadium will be an interesting change for next season. Liverpool the first fixture there on 15 Sept. 62,000 capacity and I have a feeling from the mock-up pictures that they have learned some lessons from the Emirates and from Highbury and kept the stands closer to the pitch for a better atmosphere. If so, I’ll begrudgingly tip my hat to them.

19. The spider chart with Torreira and Kante was a great idea! Torreira would be a better signing than Nzonzi: younger and higher ceiling. I wouldn’t mind selling Xhaka to sign a more mobile and more creative midfielder because Arsenal lost a lot of creativity with Cazorla’s departure.

20. I know the World Cup leaves Tim feeling cold. But I’m keeping up my usual habit of joining this prediction game every World Cup. This time I thought I’ll ask if anyone wants to join. It’s more fun if it’s against people you ‘know’ 🙂

    https://www.superbru.com/worldcup_predictor/pool.php?p=11874258

    1. i joined your pool. looks like you need a few more ppl to join 🙂

       1. Thanks!
          Approved.,.. I’ll change the settings so I don’t need to do that anymore. (First time I started a pool)

21. All the Xhaka hate is really premature. Let’s see him with a season under Emery before we start counting the shekels we’ll pocket from selling him. Wenger did some players no favors with his laissez-faire coaching style.

22. CLAUDEIVAN & EMOB. Sorry to be going back to this but I had been tied up in other matters. Maybe, you should read the link below and refresh your memories. I am with Shard on the subject of whether Arsenal did meet the clause or not; and whether it was the “provocative” nature of the £40m+1 bid that riled up the Liverpool management, as against the obvious fact that they simply bullied the player, got the PFA on their side and broke a legally binding agreement.
    It gives me concern when our fans cynically point at the club’s negotiators rather than accept we did nothing wrong but meet the terms to trigger the transaction. John Henry said nothing about the provocativeness of the bid. He simply alluded to not having respect for agreements, anyway.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/02/liverpool-john-henry-luis-suarez-clause

    1. Oh no, it’s a misundertsanding, maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I never thought Arsenal did wrong by bidding what they bid. Why pay more than what was needed, that would have been stupid, I don’t care about Liverpool’s feelings about a bid at all.
       My hangup was that they got suckered into the whole game in the first place. It showed a lack of nous on dealing with those things and reading the situation and the stakeholders’ intention beforehand. That was have been a perfect illustration of why we needed a DoF / Head of Football Performance, someone who mingles with those people and has relationships and can play the game. Liverpool must have always been confident of the outcome
       I think it was Raphael Honigstein who talked about the clause in the Football Weekly podcast about what kind of clause it was exactly. It was said to be very ambigous and not at all straightforward.

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