Arsenal: a country for old men

“It’s raining men, Hallelujah, it’s raining men Amen
I’m gonna go out, I’m gonna let myself get absolutely soaking wet
It’s raining men, Hallelujah it’s raining men, every specimen
Tall blond dark and lean rough and tough and strong and mean”
– The Weather Girls, It’s Raining Men

“We’re signing MEN”
– Ivan Gazidis high-fiving Sven Mislintat and Raul Sanllehi

Arsenal announced the signing of 34.5 year old Stephan Lichtsteiner on a one year deal today making the former Juventus player Unai Emery’s first signing for Arsenal. Emery spoke well of the Swiss international, “Stephan brings huge experience and leadership to our squad. He’s a player with great quality with a very positive and determined attitude. Stephan will improve us on and off the pitch.”

Lichtsteiner has already given an elder statesman speech to the dot com hitting all the right notes, “I hope I can bring a lot of mentality. It’s a little bit of the same project that I did seven years ago with Juventus. Juventus also, for two times, didn’t qualify for the Champions League. I hope I can bring a lot of experience, a lot of mentality and together, with my team, come back to the highest level of the Champions League.”

So, there we have it, a one year deal for a backup right back who will be a mentor to all the players and give the team a winning mentality. I wish him the best of luck at Arsenal and in the Premier League. He will have to hit the ground running since he has just one year at Arsenal but he’s a vastly experienced player and will no doubt acclimate to the speed of the Premier League and change his game to suit the Arsenal.

Rumor are also circulating that Arsenal are set to sign Marouane Fellaini and I think that my favorite moment so far regarding this rumor was when the presenter of the BBC five live Monday show asked one of his fellow commentators what he thought of the signing and there was a 30 second pause before he answered “where would they play him?”

I agree. It’s quite the puzzling link. United fans are happy to be shot of him because he is such a weird player, he just doesn’t seem to fit into any position. He’s not a midfielder, he can barely break 80% passing which is awful, and he’s not a forward because he can’t generate shots for himself or for others. He is pretty good in the air and he does foul a lot. So, maybe Arsenal are going to use him to knock down long balls for Aubameyang or something?

If I were to put a positive spin on this, I guess that it’s always good to have options on the team and sometimes you have to win ugly. Fellaini does fill that position.

Sokratis is another player Arsenal are linked to and yet another 30+ year old. At least he’s a defender and given the injuries to Koscielny, we need one of those. So, this does fill that hole. Which makes a certain sense.

And Arsenal are also linked to 29 year old former Stoke City midfielder Steven Nzonzi. He’s another player who is a bit of a mystery – he’s actually more like a conservative Xhaka than like a destroyer or sentinel midfielder that many want. So, if we are going for him I don’t know what that means for Granit Xhaka. I don’t think Nzonzi and Xhaka can play together.

I know that Arsenal have a good core, they were the second best home team in the League last season, and they just need a few parts to challenge for the Top Four Trophy. There’s also an argument that buying Sokratis and Lich allows Arsenal another year or two to groom Bellerin and Mavropanos. So, on that level, all these transfers for old men, who will have no sell-on value and who demand max wages, will perhaps be just fine.

I also know that a lot of Gooners believe that it’s ok to sign all of these old men on a free (Lich and Felony) because Arsenal are saving their powder for a really big signing like Ousmane Dembele. And again, I’d love it if that’s true.

But another, large, part of me says that this is the exact wrong transfer strategy: you don’t get into the Champions League by buying old men, you get in by buying top talent.

Over the last four years Liverpool have bought Firmino, Mane, Salah, and van Dijk. And this summer they have already signed Fabinho (from Monaco) and Naby Keita. These players are all between 23 and 26 years old and are absolutely top talents. That’s who Arsenal are competing against for the Top Four Trophy – teams full of talented players in nearly every position.

If Arsenal want to rebuild the team, which I think we need to do, then the right way to do that is to buy top talent, not stopgaps and old men on one year deals.

I would even go a step further and suggest that we have some players who need to be shifted so that we can afford to buy these top players in their 20’s and I’d start with Mesut Ozil. I don’t say that because I’m a hater, he’s been great for Arsenal, but he’s 30 in October and this is probably the last time we will be able to sell him. Shift him now, get in a young version of him, someone with speed who wants to prove themselves.

The reason you buy 20 year olds is because with them there is a foreseeable future. These are players you can plan around, skills to develop, methods to instill in them. With 34 year olds on a one year deal, there’s no future. You’ve just punted the can down the road another year and it feels way more like stasis than growth.

Qq

159 comments

  1. At this rate, I’m looking forward to us signing re-signing Boa Morte, Eboue and Upson. They are LEGENDS!

    Just kidding. Welcome to Arsenal Lichsteiner.. where dreams come to die. Don’t worry, everything will be fine though. We’ve got Emery! We will even bake you a cake that Yaya Toure would be proud of.

  2. These sorts of signings are here for 1-2 years and are clearly the sort of experienced players Emery feels he will need to get the team set up playing some kind of organized system. They may also have personal qualities he wants to instill in the team but that is only speculation (though conservative speculation).

    There is absolutely no need or point in getting worked up about any of these signings as the amount of risk attached to them is virtually nil. As for the opportunity cost – we have been letting top players pass us by for years now. Another season or two makes no difference. And that’s assuming top young players even want to sign for us at this stage.

    What do you know about this hotshot kid we supposedly poached from PSG? Isn’t that one for the future? But really, anyway, if you’re a bright young prospect, why would you sign for Arsenal now over Liverpool or someone? Arsenal are an unknown now, for the first time in years. Give it a season or two for things to settle down and we can start building properly for the future.

    I agree moving on Ozil would be ideal but that’s not going to happen for another 1-2 years at the earliest.

    Don’t stress, just relax and try to enjoy watching all this play out. It’s not Wenger anymore. It’s OK (in fact, it’s kind of incumbent on us as fans), to have a little faith.

  3. But what if you’ve already got that future in your academy and they just need some time, and some experienced heads for when they break into the team?

    I think that is the plan. Get back into the CL by using the attacking talent we acquired last season and having a solid platform behind them. And bring in the youth gradually into the team. When you get to the CL, recruit top players for the gaps that the academy cannot fill. Shorter contracts for senior players would seem to fit into that as well.

    1. Academy players are a crapshoot anyway. Even the very good academies, think Bayern Munich or Barcelona only produce very good players every once in a while. It’s absolutely a good idea to supplement the first team with players from there, but it’s not a good idea to forego signing promosing 20 year olds for some teenagers that most probably won’t make it. The Arsenal academy has produced a good number of professional footballers but not many who turn out good enough for the first team.

      1. Yes, it’s about the quality of training as well as about the sheer numbers you train. Academies at places like Ajax and Clairefontaine routinely turn out excellent footballers but in this day and age the mentality of the players is more important than ever because of the instant scrutiny and access to the lives of players that never existed in the past. These kids have to grow up fast and keep their noses pristine to even have a chance, but the catch 22 is you don’t really find out about how they deal with all that attention until they’ve proven something on the pitch, and as soon as they’ve proven something, they become hot property.

        Somewhat related tangent: I feel bad for a kid like Vincius (sic) or even Mbappe, or Martial. Imagine having to live up to those expectations before you turn 20. When I was 18-19 I was preoccupied with my zits, awkwardly trying to be noticed by girls, and deciding whether my math homework was really more important than my third ultimate frisbee pickup game that week. These kids become instant celebrities and cash cows of agents and virtually every aspect of their lives becomes public knowledge, but they’re still just kids.

        1. Yes, absolutely. Although these academies produce just a fraction of players that are good enough to play, say CL football.
          Just to add, Mpabbe was already a recognised talent at 14, he was invited several times to train with Real Madrid and basically every scout in the world already knew about him. It was very similar for top tier talents like Toni Kroos and Marco Ascensio, they’re already a thing in their early teens. Imagine that kind of pressure.

        2. Clairefontaine isn’t a fair comparison to Arsenal. It’s not run by a club but it’s one of 12 national elite academies run by the FFF. The reason why they turn out so much talent is it’s basically a clearing house for the Greater Paris area. The best young football players from the Île-de-France region (of which Paris is the capital) are trailed & then selected to stay at Clairefontaine from 13 to 15 for training and development of their technical skills. They then sign with their choice of club at 16.

          1. Thanks for that interesting background. I was just using it as an example of a successful academy with a great track record, not necessarily as a comparison.

            One thing I love about the internet is I always learn something…

    2. If we had star players in the academy, players of the Cesc/Salah level, Wenger would have used them already.

      So, I guess we have one: Ainsley Maitland-Niles. Though I kind of worry about him sometimes.

      1. It seems impossible to tell what’s hiding in the academy or when a player will emerge. Bellerin didn’t do much until his breakout season, whereas everyone thought Wilshere would be a star but it never quite happened. It does seem like AMN is the safest bet from the current crop but we’ve said that about so many players before… will he be the next Frimpong or the next Parlour? Both, and everything in between, are still in play.

      2. Wenger named a few players as being close to first team football. We also have players out on loan. And the likes of Bielik, Zelalem and Mavidid have suffered injuries which has taken them out of consideration for a while. At RB we have Tafari Moore, Chiori Johnson and Osei-Tutu at the club. Not saying they’re ready, but maybe them being close is part of the logic of signing Lichtsteiner rather than a young RB.

        For history look at us not signing the former PSG RB. Man I can never remember his name. The young Ivorian. Instead we bought Debuchy, because Bellerin was ready to step up soon. And before you say it, Debuchy was a good signing until he got injured the second time and lost his appetite for competing at Arsenal.

  4. Tim, do you know it’s a 1 year deal? I mean, is this confirmed or a guess? It was supposed to be 2 years, then arseblog said 1+1.

    Sokratis is supposed to be joining on a 3+1 year deal.

    We’ve been adding one year options into deals for a while now, so this isn’t something new.

    1. The Independent reported 1 year deal
      Guardian gave no time.
      BBC is telling us that the deal isn’t done because he still needs a work permit.

  5. Looking at it another way, buying top talent is exactly what Arsenal did last summer and winter when they acquired Lacazette, Aubameyang and Mkhitaryan. It’s also worth noting that other than a few stalwarts like Monreal, Cech and Koscielny, this is a relatively young, callow team that hasn’t learned to come together and win as a unit. It seems like the strategy is to patch the holes in the roster with inexpensive, proven veterans, get the club back to the UCL, and go from there. Moves like Sokratis and Lichtsteiner may not be sexy, but they move us closer to that goal on a minimum of risk. I can’t find much fault with taking the rebuild one step at a time rather than going for broke right away.

    As for the Liverpool comparison, yes, they have done really well. Their transfers are everyone’s envy right now. But they have also had to sell their best player to finance some of those deals while striking unexpected solid gold on Mo Salah, who projected more as a solid attacker rather than the world top 5 talent he became.

  6. The filter on this site is starting to make me batty. I can’t even figure out why some of my comments are in moderation. Is it the word sexy?

  7. Looking at it another way, buying top talent is exactly what Arsenal did last summer and winter when they acquired Lacazette, Aubameyang and Mkhitaryan. It’s also worth noting that other than a few stalwarts like Monreal, Cech and Koscielny, this is a relatively young, callow team that hasn’t learned to come together and win as a unit. It seems like the strategy is to patch the holes in the roster with inexpensive, proven veterans, get the club back to the UCL, and go from there. Moves like Sokratis and Lichtsteiner may not be glamorous, but they move us closer to that goal on a minimum of risk. I can’t find much fault with taking the rebuild one step at a time rather than going for broke right away.

    As for the Liverpool comparison, yes, they have done really well. Their transfers are everyone’s envy right now. But they have also had to sell their best player to finance some of those deals while striking unexpected solid gold on Mo Salah, who projected more as a solid attacker rather than the world top 5 talent he became.

    1. Agreed, I think the apparent strategy is sensible and coherent. Plus, you know, at least there does appear to actually be some semblance of strategy and planning now.

    2. eh… no.

      Lacazette, sort of.. he’s 27.

      Aubameyang and Mkhitaryan, no. Both of those are over 30.

      This is the same group that has won three FA Cups. I’m not sure that they don’t know how to win.

      1. Lichsteiner has won 7 league titles in a row. I don’t think he’ll be overawed with Ramsey’s 3 family cups. Plus, you might consider that Alexis Sanchez was rather central to two of those cup wins, and he left largely because of the lack of a winning mentality at arsenal.

      2. There’s a difference between winning a cup competition and being consistent in a league over several months, the latter activity of which this group clearly has no idea how to do.

        1. Handing the league to Leicester, failing at the round of 16 in CL for 10 years running, record run of away defeats this season… yeah the FA Cup wins don’t really speak to a winning mentality.

  8. I think it’s a straw man to say it’s good we’re signing all these older players so we can buy a Dembele – that misrepresents the argument, and I think you know it. But in case you don’t, let me try (again) to lay it out:

    – If the reports of us having a budget of 50m are true, then we have a transfer budget of 50m.
    – Fabinho alone eats that all up. Keita alone eats that all up. We bought 2 strikers in the last 12 months who, individually, would eat that up. A Dembele, as you bring up, would doubly eat that up. Reasonable people know that, so let’s put it to bed.
    – You have 50 and need 4 or 5 players – some more than others. Do you (a) spend 10m each on 5 different players who, at that price, are probably good enough for a relegation-threatened team? Not smart. How about (b) spend little to nothing on backup positions for players who have a history of staying fit (Bellerin); little on players who you need for a couple of years but with apparently promising youngsters rising through the ranks (Socrates?), (c) the rest of your budget to fill the gaps that are most gaping (Nzonzi?), (d) get some promising youngsters for little to nothing (Adli?), and (e) leave those that can wait for next season (GK?).

    I think Arsenal are doing the latter. You can question the wisdom of it, but like all strategies it comes with risk. It could pay off.

    I love what Liverpool are doing, I really do. But (a) we don’t have that money, apparently, and (b) I’m not sure what the wisdom is to go all out when you have a City who will dominate the league for the next 2-3 years. I wonder if we’re saving our money, waiting it out; trying to tread water until Pep goes and City decline, and spend a bunch to rebuild massively then. I hope, anyway.

    1. The other problem might be that the players we might be looking are usually spoilt for choice. Even if we were in for Fabinho, right now, he’s probably not picking Arsenal. It’s the Alexis situation in reverse.

      1. The sad truth is that Arsenal FC probably currently rank 6th in the Premier & about 15th in Europe in the desirablily stakes as a destination for top football talent.

        1. I don’t think it works that way, or if it did then no club outside of that top 15 would ever land top talent. The player’s desire of course factors in, but so does a million other things, like whether any of those other clubs are actually interested in that player or have the money to buy him, and I think you may be underestimating the allure that Arsenal still holds, particularly for young players given our track record with that demographic.

    2. Good point about the lifecycle of Pep and City, though it’s so difficult to repeat these days, to keep players that motivated for consecutive seasons, if anyone can do it, it’s Pep. Still, I think a club like Arsenal should approach each season thinking it has at least a puncher’s chance at the title, even if reality is that there are 5 teams in the league that were superior to us last season.

    3. Zeddington,
      Of course you’re right about Dembele, Fabinho, Keita, etc. We can’t really afford more than one of those players right now, if that (of course another question is why our transfer budget is as low as it’s reported as being, given all the players we’ve sold or let go in the last year, but I digress…).

      But the comparison I think Tim wants to make is not so much to Liverpool this summer, when they’ve already surpassed us. It’s to the Liverpool of a few years ago. They weren’t regularly in the CL and needed to catch up to the teams, like Arsenal, that they (rightly) saw as their direct rivals. They were still in our shadow, or maybe (charitably) even with us, but they didn’t get an inferiority complex and say “oh we can’t compete with those guys,” even when players like Torres, Suarez, and Sterling pushed to leave, and Sanchez turned them down. Instead, they went out and bought the likes of Coutinho and Firmino. Neither of those two players cost 50m. Coutinho in particular was super cheap. Even Salah’s transfer fee was only about half of our summer budget (keep in mind that budget could grow if we sell a few, and also that there were reports it was going to be about 70 rather than 50).

      Now obviously if you buy super talented youngsters (not kids, but players in their early 20’s, ready to play for the first team) who are still cheap-ish because they’re getting slightly overlooked by the biggest clubs but who have the potential to become big stars, it’s still a risky strategy. Some of those players will bomb (Lazar Markovic anyone?); they’re not all going to be come Coutinhos and Salahs. But as a general strategy over several seasons, this one seems to make a lot more sense than buying 28-34 year olds, and arguably it’s not much more expensive in the medium term, because you’re not paying large salaries to players with no sell-on value who you’ll need to replace in 1-3 years.

      1. Exactly this. If you buy 3 talented, but somewhat under the radar youngsters at about 25 million each, you really just need one of them to come good if you end up selling him to one of big Spanish clubs when they reach about 28 years of age. That mitigates a lot of the risk. But if you are telling me that you are not confident about getting a big transfer value out of any of them at a future date then you need to change your scouting or coaching system – or perhaps both.

        I think some fans are going to get a rude awakening. Emery is not a miracle worker. Sure, the tactics might get better and he might be able to more out of the players by improving the way we play as a team but he is not going to turn Xhaka and Mustafi into world beaters. At some point, we are going to have to loosen up the purse strings. I can get behind the “keep what we have” plan for the time being but if we have any ambitions to become a true super club it won’t be enough in the long run.

      2. I agree with that, but I also think maybe the market has changed. I think it started to change when Martial went to United for what was a record fee for a teenager at the time. Since then, it only seems to have gotten worse. If I could draw a chart of price vs age for 5 years ago vs today, the peak would be much closer to the left axis now than before. Just an observation, but it makes it harder to buy that younger talent.

        On Ozil, I’d happily sell and invest on one or two younger, inferior players. His importance to the team is not a Cesc’s was, for example, even if he’s a phenomenal player. But I wonder if that big fat contract has priced him out of all but the biggest clubs.

        1. Of course there are teenagers being bought at insane prices. But Salah wasn’t a crazy price. Firmino and Mane weren’t crazy prices. Kante wasn’t a crazy price (even when he went to Chelsea!). Eriksen and (the very underrated) Son weren’t crazy prices. Bloody Dele Alli wasn’t a crazy price!

          There are always bargains to be had, without just settling for the obvious bargains who are bargains because they’re over the hill or about to be.

          1. All that changed with Neymar. There was an article I read about Monchi (Tim’s favourite DoF) and the criticism he’s received over the sale of Salah. He said it was a few weeks before the move for Neymar made it look like a bad deal for Roma and a great deal for Liverpool. Who of course doubly benefited because they got a huge chunk of the Neymar money.

            That’s the new benchmark for young stars. At least attacking players.

            And while I get the logic of selling Ozil, I think I’d rather buy better protection behind him and let him create chances for Laca and Auba.

    4. I have had real humans say that they think we are saving all of our powder for Dembele. It happens on Twitter all the time. This isn’t a straw man.

      As for buying players: sell Ozil, buy Dembele. Use the other £30m to buy another great player. Do this every year for four years.

      Liverpool’s net spend in the transfer market over the last four years is £140m (including the 95m outlay this season, prior to that it was just 45m).

      Arsenal’s spend is £111m in that same time.

      1. Really just comes down to your scouting system and how you develop players. It seems to me we are scared to pull the trigger for attacking players around the 22-24 year age sweet spot. Liverpool bought Suarez at 24 and Coutinho at 21. Getting 4 years out of each of these guys is really all they needed. Mo Salah came in after just having turned 25. They will sell him in 3 years for 4 times the price they paid for him if he keeps up his form. They are able to do this through a mix of scouting and coaching. This also comes across as a way of financing to me. It’s not a bad business model and like everything else, you need the right structure in place. I’m still not convinced we have a good scouting system. So far Sven has raided Dortmund for all the new faces at Arsenal but nothing yet that tells me we can spot a rising star at that 22-24 year age sweet spot who will immediately make the team more dynamic and a make a nice profit for the club if they are to be moved on.

        1. Pool are buying players that the analytics community all seem to agree are good. Salah, Fabinho, Keita… all seem like no brainers. We apparently have some stats gurus, but the players they’re turning up are Xhaka and Mustafi, who seem talented and have particular skills but maybe are misused or flawed in other areas.

          Apparently Wenger wasn’t much of a statistico either, which, as a fellow economist, I find very disappointing (I’ve always said Wenger is a terrible economist).

          1. But if our stats team was turning up Xhakas and Mustafis, and telling him to say ‘no’ to Griezmann, wasn’t Wenger kinda justified, at least with respect to *our* stats guys? Is it AW’s fault or statDNA’s fault? Maybe they’re just a bit crap at what they do? I mean, we assume they’re not, because they’re “experts” at complicated math-y stuff, but isn’t the proof in the pudding, particularly in comparison to, e.g., Liverpool, if all Pool’s recent signings have been stats signings?

          2. The problem was Wenger, not the stats guys. Wenger didn’t want players who needed actual coaching, he wanted didactics who could teach themselves or each other.

            Wenger is gone, let’s see what can be made of Xhaka and Mustafi now.

  9. First person who came to mind when you described Fellaini was Dennis Rodman in the championship winning Bulls team. Not sure why I thought of Rodman but just putting it out there. I’m not suggesting Fellaini will have the same effect (getting players sent off and winning Aerials and second balls (rebounds).

    I’m out. 😀

  10. The club were not yet in position to make the managerial change.
    Forced to do so by the televising of empty seats, and everyone else with a keyboard– to ‘do something, anything now’ .

    So SIR did something. They pushed AW out the door. Brought in the best candidate they could to lead the team.

    The fact that financially the club isn’t in position– nor that the players required aren’t readily available, to make a definite push-on to top-4/CL– seems obvious.

    So. Here we sit. Staffing the squad with cheap, experienced, expendable depth. Depth we can move on next Summer, when, given two additional TWs to work with? The remodeling of the team might better resemble what everyone is expecting ‘yesterday’.

    This is next season’s reality. You asked for it. You got it.
    Lighten up. It’s going to be a transitional year.

    jw1

    1. Yes, a transitional season to be certain, but I always think any group of reasonably talented footballers can punch above their weight for a while if they have someone to score goals for them. We have that now in Aubameyang and Lacazette, so while I wouldn’t really expect a title charge, it’s a funny old game and funny things can happen. Certainly this group wouldn’t be the biggest underdogs to ever win a championship, and improving from last season is pretty certain just from the sheer law of averages/regression to mean point of view. Throw in a little more defensive security, a few slices of luck, and we can be right in the mix. I know, I’m an optimist, but what’s the point otherwise?

      1. Am ever-the-optimist myself. Was so last season– until Alexis deflated. And I am confident we’ll see less confusion in the back-5 next season. So yes, if Emery is ‘all that’ then good things can result.

        But the gnashing of teeth/rending of garments over signing 30-year-olds is already wearing thin. Not as if we’re signing leftovers. SIRE are picking out the experienced players they want– to execute the plan for next season.

        Just sayin’.

        jw1

        1. I can get behind that plan – assuming that is the plan and this isn’t an ominous sign of things to come in the future but I still have to draw a line at some point and Fellaini is that line for me.

          1. Will you still be drawing that line if he comes on and scores a 93rd minute header against Man U/Man City/Tottenham or Liverpool?

          2. Will you still be drawing that line if he comes on and scores a 93rd minute winner header against Man U/Man City/Tottenham or Liverpool? 😉

            Actually, I am all for him if he runs around and makes a nuisance of himself with opposing team, wins headers, scores important goals.

  11. I wasn’t thrilled with getting Mhykitaryan (I wanted to sell Sanchez in the summer and take City’s 60 million) and I was definitely not happy we signed Ozil to such a massive deal at his age. I wasn’t even keen on Aubameyang, but it looks like he’s the real deal and will probably produce a ton of goals the next two years.

    I would agree, we have an age profile problem at the club in key positions and there needs to be an aggressive push to get younger (and more talented).

    I stand by my statement yesterday – if we sign Fellaini, I’m out. I will burn one of my jerseys and post the video and start following Spurs (who if you notice ARE NOT linked with Fellaini, despite also having financial constraints and need of depth at DM).

    1. “I wasn’t thrilled with getting Mhykitaryan (I wanted to sell Sanchez in the summer and take City’s 60 million) and I was definitely not happy we signed Ozil to such a massive deal at his age. I wasn’t even keen on Aubameyang, but it looks like he’s the real deal and will probably produce a ton of goals the next two years.

      I would agree, we have an age profile problem at the club in key positions and there needs to be an aggressive push to get younger (and more talented).”

      Agree 100%, and always felt the same. I think the price of young players in today’s market is insane – it used to be players at their peak cost a fortune, now you can get an Aubameyang at 27/28 at half the price of a younger player who, at best, will peak at the same level. It’s a funny old thing. I wonder if the market has swung too far in the direction of long-termism after spending a long time focusing on the short-term. We’ll see, I guess. I can see the value of signing older players for cheap on high-ish wages (not sure this is the case if the focus is on luring short-term players to your club) if you’re ready to replace them in the short-medium term. A low retention strategy, I suppose.

      Lichtensteiner is basically a loan deal. You pay wages, you get him for a year. If it works out, great! If it doesn’t, drat. You move on. You’re not burdened with a 50m Fernando Torres + wages for 4 years.

    2. I’m not going to overreact to what I presume is hyperbole about supporting Spurs, etc., but I do have to ask, what moves would have been sufficient to please you, Jack? Because, I feel compelled to point out, a lot of people would’ve been very unhappy should we have let Ozil walk and/or not signed anyone to replace Sanchez. I seem to even recall folks on this very site bemoaning Ozil’s lack of conviction in Arsenal and how unlikely it was that he should want to stay at a second rate non-CL outfit like this, and Tim himself loved to cite that one article about how Aubameyang supposedly “laughed off” the rumors tying him to a move with Arsenal. Then, after Ozil signed the contract we all hoped he would, it very quickly morphed into a lot of hemming and hawing: that’s a lot of money for an almost 30 yo and we should move on from him because he’s probably incompatible with the new manager anyway; and for Auba it was: yeah, but he’s old and probably not even the same player anymore and what if he has no re-sale value in 3 years. I mean: really?! Your club signs a world top 10 forward and you’re worrying about his re-sale value? When we spend the money on solid veteran free agents like Lichtsteiner and Sokratis, it’s a wast of the club’s resources and they’re too old. When we sit on our hands all summer, it’s a betrayal of the fans and a lack of ambition.

      So, I ask again, what would make Arsenal fans happy? Have we really become such a Goldilocks fanbase that it takes a specific player or specific category of player, someone in-vogue like Fabinho or Seri, to stave off the doomsday scenarios and build some positive thinking? What do we *really* want? My theory is simple: We know we want AWESOME but we can’t agree on what that means or how to get there, and we have an amazing ability to see the downside of everything after years of disappointment, even in a surefire AWESOME talent like Auba. So, among the vocal online community at least, we end up with a reprise of the same damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t mentality I observed with attitudes to Wenger and *Wenger voice* I must say I am pleased it’s not really tied to any one manager. The difference is that now it’s the new leadership that is being criticized for doing things differently by acquiring seasoned veterans, whereas before it was Wenger who was criticized for sticking to his guns by avoiding exactly these types of free agents. I lost count of the muscular journeyman midfielders like Mo Diame or Jeff Kondogbia that were in popular demand across the world of Arsenal, for years, that Wenger was too lame to sign. Now the club has shifted gears and is looking at muscular journeymen like N’Zonzi or Fellaini and suddenly they’re committing heresy? Presumably Fellaini is the heretic’s choice because no Arsenal blog is endorsing him at the moment, no preachers at the pulpit extolling his virtues, instead the major thought leaders like Tim are proclaiming fire and brimstone. I don’t even know what point I’m making, so I guess I’m like everyone else: I’m upset and I don’t even know why! 😀 I just know I hate fire and brimstone, especially when it seems to come no matter what the club does, it seems. So I’ll ask one more time: What will make YOU (mostly) happy to follow Arsenal?

      1. Have a laudanum, Doc. I didn’t proclaim fire and brimstone. And what do I want?

        I want the Arsenal to sell off all these players who are over 30, or to at least start investing in players in their young to mid 20s. I thought I was exceptionally clear.

        1. Ok, so if we start to sell everyone over 30, also known as all of our best players except Lacazette, Ramsey and Bellerin, then how will we get back into competitive relevance? Serious question. Let’s start with Ozil: You were advocating offloading Ozil and getting Dembele. Ok, great plan on the face of it, and I would support it if it were that simple, except how do you know Dembele is available or that we could get him once it became known he’s available? And who will buy Ozil for a hefty transfer fee and that salary? Even more importantly, we are trying to build a certain culture of accountability and trust at this club. Thinking like the GM (because that’s easier than SMEG or whatever), you just committed to this guy in a big way. He embodies your style of play, and he’s the best creative player in the world. Now you want to dump him for a super direct hotshot winger who flamed out at Barca? That sends two main messages to the football world at large: 1. We don’t know what we’re doing 2. If you sign a contract with us it means nothing. You start shopping Ozil, he and his people get mad and fight back, and now you have a saga on your hands where you had calm water before. Even if you do move him, it’s acrimonious and puts other players off from wanting to come to play for you. Is no Ozil + disruptive summer saga that poisons the atmosphere for Emery’s first training camp really worth getting Dembele? Not in a million years in my view.

          1. I agree with you: Arsenal fucked up the Ozil deal when we gave him a salary that makes him immovable.

            So, cool, we will now have Ozil playing 30 matches a season, when he feels like it, chipping in a few assists, maybe playing a little defense (unlikely), and we can’t do anything about it.

            But that doesn’t mean we can’t buy one or two mid 20s players every season for the next few years. And right now, I see zero links to anyone of that profile.

            Overthirty FC

      2. I think most fans are prepared to give time to SMEG. Lichtenstein and Socrates didn’t excite anybody (rightfully) but it seemed that most fans were okay with bringing it some experience even if the signings are uninspiring. I think you have to draw a line somewhere though. IF we do sign Fellaini, no matter how you try to justify the signing, we all know why we signed him – and it’s because he is available on a free. Fans aren’t stupid (ok, some fans are – like Piers Morgan). Point is there needs to be a balancing act. We are adding experience with Lichsteiner and Socrates. Midfield is an area we badly to upgrade and Fellaini is definitely not it.

        1. Fellaini is not “it” and has never been “it” even for Everton. He would be a complementary piece, nothing more or less, kind of like a Zaza Pachulia on the warriors, but he actually has experience playing in really big games and is a potential source of goals. He’s not “the answer” but he’s a big body you can throw into the fray when a game calls for that. When the pitch is mushy and we are facing a deep block in need of a goal, why not throw him on? When you’re playing a dead rubber in the Europa, why not let him eat those minutes? When the other team brings on a Giroud or a Carroll, why not counter with Fellaini? Nobody thinks he should be starting important matches but he’s far from useless.

          1. And with our current transfer budget, do you *really* have any confidence in the club to go out and find that midfield “it”, and pay handsomely for him, if we’ve already gone out and signed Fellaini (on massive wages, apparently) earlier in that same window??!!!??

            Isn’t it far more likely that the club will say “hey, we re-signed Ramsey, which was our main objective all along (LANS), and we added some much needed size and physicality to our midfield in Fellaini, so we feel we’re well stocked in midfield going into the new campaign. Oh, and by the way, you fans remember how we signed Auba in January!!”

            I can see the club-fed pieces from Ornstein, Jeremy Wilson, et al., now…

      3. I’m late to reply here, but I have been very very consistent: If a player is going into his last year of a contract and will not sign an extension, you sell him. You recoup whatever money you can and move on. You can never risk letting a player walking out for free.

        The argument was that Sanchez, Ozil and Ox – by keeping 2 out of the 3, that would help us “get back into the top 4”. Bulls*t. It’s a team sport and great teams are more than the sum of their parts.

        So, I would have sold Sanchez for 60m to City, Ox to Liverpool for 30m and Ozil to whomever would have taken him – but I would never have rewarded a 29-year old Ozil with a 350k/week contract on a 6th place team. It makes him un-moveable.

        So much of what happened the last couple of years of Wenger seemed to be a) to give Arsene one last shot at glory and b) to avoid/mitigate public backlash. Sure, if we’d sold Ozil, Sanchez and Ox in a single summer the brass would have been crucified – by some, but not all.

        I want a minimum of stop-gaps. I get Lichtsteiner and Sokratis. But I want a concerted effort to get younger and more talented. We supposedly now have a coach who improves players – young players in particular. Let’s focus on that. Let’s devote the vast majority of our funds to finding U23 players, even if they’re unknowns like Mavrapanos, and let’s build.

        I think there is way way too much expectation that Bam! We’re going right back to rocking it in the Champions League in 2020. Forget it. We need a proper rebuild, not a renovation.

        1. But what counts as a proper rebuild? Squads turn around much faster these days. Signing just younger players does nothing except let us hope for potential improvement. It needs to be a balance. I think we’re ignoring the potential we already have at the club just to criticise the lack of revolution some think Emery should represent.

          It’s weird because your argument is to rebuild. Which is exactly what buying stop gaps is going to enable us to do without tanking. I don’t think 3 or 4 players to replace the experience we’ve lost holds us back from rebuilding.

          And look, this team already showed they have it in them to beat good teams, and be dominant against the lesser lights, at least at home. They got to a domestic cup final, and they should have won the EL. That’s after throwing away half the season with disruptions, then lots of player turnover, and dealing with a lack of senior players and backup RB in defense. I disagree that we need a complete overhaul.

    3. Though Spurs do have a Big Lug of Their Own in Eric Dier.
      And getting luggier every year.

      No. Did not want Sanchez at City– £60M or not. Pep would have inspired him– where Jose will assist his decay. With the effect of ‘lessening’ both top-2 PL teams with one move/non-move. Worth more than the cash IMO.

      jw1

      1. 60m… add to our 50m budget this year and there’s your Ousmane Dembele transfer fee and you have a young player who is a future mega-star. Just sayin’.

        I really don’t get this attitude that casually dismisses 60m. We were never going to beat City, so who cares if sending Sanchez to them strengthened them. Get real.

        1. True. Except they did not make us that offer until the final day. I think that was meant to weaken us further because it would be too late to get a replacement. I classify that as bad faith negotiation especially when buying from someone in the same league.

          We still offered 90m for Lemar, so we were looking to replace Alexis with a young potential star of the future. The club were unwilling to give up Alexis for just money though. You can criticise that, but they would also have faced serious criticism if they had done that.

  12. Lich and Felony… sounds like some retro-70’s Buddy Cop show…
    “Lich and Felony. Go together like Rhinestones and ‘Stache. Thursdays, only on the CW!”

  13. Unai Emery is a proper coach. Sees a gapping hole in the right back position. How go 1-3 seasons without competition in the RB position. Make no mistake, Lichtsteiner is a proper RB of the highest level. Increadibly fit for his age. Watched him live in Basel in the Swiss-Hungary WC qualifier in October. He owned the rightwing. When he goes for the ball, then he really goes for it. No nonsense by nature. The softness of Arsenal is gradually remedied. Is he a back-up RB? Let’s see about that. Finally the competition is on for this slot. To the gain of the whole team and Bellerin not least. Herzlich Willkommen Stephan!!

    1. I made the fitness comparison with Lothar Matthaus who won a player of the year award age 39 and I would stand by that. The more I think about Lichtsteiner the happier I am to have him on board. Not least because Bellerin was giving off signs of complacency, and I agree – people might be surprised how often it’s Bellerin on the bench instead of the old geezer, and that one year deal could well be extended.

      We’ll see.

      1. “Complacency” is probably not fair – but he’s plateauing and will benefit from having Licht around.

  14. Signing ‘men’ is about getting the team to collectively grow a pair. Who plays with a nasty edge on Arsenal? No one. Mustafai cries and whines, Kos was (rightly) afraid of blowing out his Achilles. Ozil, Auba, Mkhi, Ramsey are skilled guys but nice guys. No one to intimidate, harass and unnerve opponents. Or at least stand up to it when other teams do. Lich and Sok have the ability to bring some toughness to the team. Fellaini takes that approach way too far. You have to be useful beyond the toughness, and he isn’t. The other 2 help bring the intangibles we lack. Will it work? I’m willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. As long as it comes with a solid DM. Not earth-shattering but solid. N’zonzi fits that bill to me.

    1. Agree.
      I’m totally fine (not super excited, but perfectly happy) with Lich and Sok. Could both be very good servants for the club for 1-3 seasons.

      Fellaini feels totally different for me, because he’s useless at everything but Plan C long balls into the box.

      The difference between him and the first two needs to be underlined.

      1. The Fellaini conundrum baffles me. No one knows what position he plays in for certain but he is generally accepted as a footballer.

        1. Fellaini encapsulates the shifting polarity of football opinion. At some point around 2013, he was probably the prize of the transfer market and MU won the sweepstakes thanks to the Moyes effect. The Guardian had him as the 60th best footballer in the planet. Now, he might as well be wearing clown shoes and is possibly not even a footballer anymore at the age of 30. I blame the MU fans who have all collectively decided to loathe him, I suspect because he is a living/breathing reminder that their club was once’s managed to trophyless, Arsenal levels of respectable mediocrity by Davy Moyes.

          1. “At some point around 2013, he was probably the prize of the transfer market and MU won the sweepstakes thanks to the Moyes effect.”

            This is simply wild hyperbole in service of making your point. I remember that far back. You know who we got in 2013? Mesut Ozil. Was any Arsenal fan bemoaning the fact that we didn’t get Fellaini instead (he asks rhetorically)?

            The Fellaini transfer happened near the end of the window, and the football websites I frequented at the time (not associated with any particular club) were criticizing/making fun of United and Moyes for settling for a very limited player in Fellaini, who was the obvious unimaginative choice because he was someone Moyes already knew, whereas United had spent most of that summer chasing more glamorous midfielders they failed to land (I can’t remember who they were linked with for sure, but I think that might have been the summer they tried hard for Cesc).

            So let’s not rewrite history. He was certainly more highly rated than he is now, but even by the end of his Everton days, people had pretty much figured Fellaini out.

          2. I probably did over-state that, but I should’ve clarified I meant he was a top prize, if not the top prize, from within the PL, not worldwide.

  15. And yes a EL budget is a EL budget and not a CL budget. With other gapping holes in the squad like a ball winning DMF (to take pressure from the great Xhaka), softness & weak mentality (barely a point away from home last season), CB position, plan B & plan C also a move for Fellaini makes a lot of sense. Ball winner, destroyer, nastiness, plan B (play a scrap in midfield and release Aubameyang/Laca) & C (score from a corner is not forbidden) all in one. You win nothing with kids.

    1. Except that statement, originally belched forth by smug, washed-up jock Alan Hansen, was famously, spectacularly proved hogwash by Fergie’s Man United in 1996.

      And Fellaini isn’t very good at “ball winning” or “destroying” (unless the latter is merely a euphemism for “fouling”).

      1. See, I think the famous class of ’92 proved the rule that Henson put forth by exception. They were such a famous success precisely because nothing like them has come before or since, much like Leicester will forever remain the white whale of PL managers hopeful of overachieving to an extreme degree. If you win the lottery, that doesn’t disprove the fact that the lottery is practically impossible to win. Hansen may have been a washed jock, but his statement is a lot more true than it is false.

        1. Sure. How bout Monaco 16-17? Or Dortmund when they won back to back titles? Or Rodgers’s Liverpool side that came so close to winning the title? Or (gulp) the Spurs side that has comprehensively proven themselves to be better than us the last two years? None of these teams was as young as Fergie’s Fledglings (well, Monaco may have been), but all of them had a core of exciting players in the 25-and-under range with huge upsides. None of those clubs were the biggest, richest teams in their respective leagues. That’s just off the top of my noggin.

          Hopefully we’re going to move in that direction, that transfer strategy, that “business model” (to use a depressing phrase), over the next few years. Heck, it looks a bit like Arsene’s old business model, before things started really coming off the rails (as bad as some of his tactics got, our transfer dealings over the last four years or so were even worse).

          But I agree with Tim in that nothing we’ve seen or heard this summer so far (or since Sven came to the club) about our transfer dealings suggests we’re moving in that direction any time soon. Very early days still, of course.

          1. Very early days still, of course.

            ===

            Which is why I find it weird that many are acting as if it’s late days and we’re reflecting on a transfer window gone by…

            Are we signing Fellaini? Is that happening? Are we only signing 30-plus year-olds this summer? Nah. Or, why believe it?

  16. I mean, if we *really* just want a cheap, experienced, tough, physically imposing DM, then surely we can do better than Fellaini, right?

    Nzonzi is one (unlike Tim, I think he’s different enough to work with Xhaka), but maybe he’ll be too expensive. This chap’s another obvious one, is better at DM than Fellaini, two years younger, has worked with Emery before, and would be a steal:

    http://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2018/psg-hoping-to-raise-e15m-from-the-sale-of-grzegorz-krychowiak/

    #anyonebutmarouane

    1. Huh? He was garbage this past season at West Brom. And again, a player at the wrong end of the age spectrum.

      Seriously, Max Meyer, Corentin Tollisso, Nabil Fekir, Lucas Torreira, not saying we can get any of them to come to a 6th place team without dramatically overpaying, but that’s the profile of player we need to be stockpiling, all between 22-23, all dynamic and athletic.

      1. I’m not saying I want him to come. I’m saying, if we’re seriously thinking about Fellaini, then we might as well go for Grzeg, who checks a lot of the same boxes, but is clearly better at DM than MF (one bad season at a bad club doesn’t make him a bad player), and younger to boot. (In other words, Fellaini would be terrible; anyone but Fellaini.)

  17. The Lichtsteiner signing is a complete waste of money! Let’s assume he will make £70,000 a week. That would be the difference between offering Ramsey £130,000 a week and £200,000 a week.

    1. Why though?

      I think we can..CAN not will… raise our spending by about 700k per week. We can pay Ramsey 200k and pay an experienced international RB 70k. There’s no either/or here.

      People think Licht is washed up. He doesn’t give me that impression, so maybe that’s why I’m in favour of it.

      1. If he’s washed up *of course* he’s a waste of money. If he’s not washed up, he makes a ton of sense, given his experience, his being free, and where Bellerin is in his career. Presumably the Arsenal scouts know enough to make a very educated guess as to whether he’s washed up or not.

        It’s that simple.

        1. So we should trust the scouts and manager over our own opinions?????? Where were you yesterday? 😃

          1. Not with Fellaini!

            The question that Lich was a high quality right back for a number of years was never really in doubt. The only question is whether his body is likely to be breaking/slowing down, or whether he’s got more gas left in the tank. None of us know, of course, but experts paid handsomely by Arsenal to make judgments on such things are going to have a much better idea than us fans.

            Nice try.

          2. Cool. My only request is that we try to give SMEG the benefit of the doubt. It seems the reaction to transfer rumors is already poisoning the well.

      2. It’s an additional strain on the payroll! With the wages of Ozil, Aubameyang, Mkhitaryan, Lacazette and Kolasinac, we’re moving into City and United territory even though we don’t have their financial might. £70,000 a week may sound like nothing, but once you add future players Arsenal will have to sign to replace Koscielny, Cazorla, Wilshere, Cech, Monreal and others, that Lichtsteiner deal gives Arsenal less maneuvering room to negotiate salaries. That’s the whole problem with Arsenal: they keep signing average players who put a huge strain on the payroll. Sure, Elneny or Chambers cost nothing, taken separately, but when you add them to the squad players who aren’t good enough for a Top 4 team, that’s a lot of money!

        1. It’s for 1, 2 years max. And we’ve gotten quite a lot of players off our payroll in the last 12 months. If he’s going to be a complete bystander all year, a la Per last year, then I agree it’s a waste. But given the experience he brings, and assuming he’s still quite good at football, and given our obvious need for depth at the position (hey, if we play Hector less, his form might actually stay more consistent!), it’s not a bad short term deal.

          1. “And we’ve gotten quite a lot of players off our payroll in the last 12 months.”
            You are in complete denial and very far from the truth! Here are the changes on the Arsenal payroll in the last 12 months: ADDED £860,000-920,000 a week (Lacazette £170,000-200,000 a week, Kolasinac £120,000, Mavropanos £10,000, Mkhitaryan £170,000-180,000, Aubameyang £180,000-200,000, raise for Ozil from £140,000 to £350,000), SUBTRACTED £865,000 a week (Oxlade-Chamberlain £65,000, Paulista £50,000, Gibbs £60,000, Szczesny £65,000, Debuchy £70,000, Coquelin £45,000, Sanchez £140,000, Walcott £110,000, Giroud £100,000, Cazorla £90,000, Mertesacker £70,000). Despite getting rid of a lot of players, the club has managed to increase the payroll!
            “It’s for 1, 2 years max. (…) it’s not a bad short term deal.”
            The problem is that some fans only see the deal taken in isolation and fail to see the big picture. Sure, one poor deal for a year is nothing, but add half a dozen poor deals and it becomes a major problem, i.e. the snowball effect. Here are the top wage bills in the Premier League for the 2016-17 season: Manchester United £264 million, Chelsea £256m, City £244m, Arsenal £234m, Liverpool £200m, Spurs £120m. Arsenal had a payroll nearly as big as City’s while it should have been at Liverpool’s level. You still don’t see the problem with Arsenal’s payroll?
            “and given our obvious need for depth at the position.”
            No, we already have Maitland-Niles and Holding who can deputize in the rightback position. I’d rather give them some playing time and help them develop than spend some money on a 34-year-old Lichtsteiner.

          2. Also: “The problem is that some fans only see the deal taken in isolation and fail to see the big picture.”

            Um, no, your “problem” is that you fail to see the deal in isolation. Note, this is literally ALL I’M SAYING: the deal makes sense in isolation. Giving him 70,000 a week for one year isn’t somehow the straw that breaks the camel’s back, that’s going to force the club to declare bankruptcy. Since most/all of these deals you don’t like–past, present, and hypothetical–are completely independent of each other, my thinking the Lich deal is ok doesn’t commit me to thinking it’s a good idea *in general* for us to sign up a bunch of older players on large contracts. In fact, I’ve been arguing the exact opposite in comments on here all day!

          3. ForArse – let’s be done with the “deputizing” in positions players were never meant to play. Holding could be a great CB. He’d make a poor RB. AMN did his time at left-back. This playing players out of their position to back-up starters is something small clubs do.

          4. @PFO
            “You had me at ‘Holding can deputize in the right back position’.”
            If you had done a bit of research, you would know that Holding played 17 games as a rightback for Bolton (10 with the first team and 7 with the U21 team, according to transfermarkt). Holding also made a couple of appearances in the fullback position as a substitute at Arsenal.

            “Um, no, your ‘problem’ is that you fail to see the deal in isolation. Note, this is literally ALL I’M SAYING: the deal makes sense in isolation. (…) Since most/all of these deals you don’t like–past, present, and hypothetical–are completely independent of each other”
            Unfortunately, that’s not how clubs operate. Any decision in the transfer market has an impact on the next decision. If you sign a Thierry Henry, it means you don’t have to worry about signing a top striker for 8-10 years and you can also afford to gamble on young and cheap forwards like RVP. Now when you have a Giroud limited by his lack of pace and struggling to find the net, there’s much more pressure on the club to spend big on a Lacazette or an Aubameyang. Same story with the centerback position. When Arsenal realized they needed a faster centerback than Mertesacker, they signed experienced guys like Paulista and Mustafi and gambled on youngsters like Chambers and Holding. In the end, none of those 4 signings is good enough and the club has to spend again in the transfer market. Snowball effect.
            Even taken in isolation, the Lichtsteiner signing is still a bad deal. Arsenal must be at least as smart as Spurs and Liverpool to overtake them. For a small fee, Pochettino signed two youngsters, Davies and Trippier, to deputize for Walker and Rose. When Walker left, Trippier was ready to step up, and Davies has already taken Rose’s starting spot this year. Poch took care of the present but also prepared the future. Same story with Klopp at Liverpool. When Gomez got injured, Klopp started an academy player, Alexander-Arnold, in the rightback position. In one year, where will be the alternative if Bellerin wants to go to Barcelona because he wants to play Champions League football? Lichtsteiner is the past, not the present and definitely not the future. And don’t mention arguments like ‘Lichtsteiner will make Bellerin a better player’. Bellerin already got plenty of advice from good fullbacks like Sagna, Monreal and Debuchy. The one person who will improve Bellerin’s game is Emery, not Lichtsteiner. Mustafi also got some advice from Mertesacker and Koscielny, two very good defenders, and see the result: Mustafi looks worse than when he joined the club.

            @JACK ACTION
            “Let’s be done with the “deputizing” in positions players were never meant to play. Holding could be a great CB. He’d make a poor RB. AMN did his time at left-back. This playing players out of their position to back-up starters is something small clubs do.”
            You’re wrong. Guardiola played Delph, a midfielder by trade, in the leftback position. He also played Navas, a winger by trade, in the rightback position. Another stroke of genius was Zidane playing Lucas Vazquez, a winger by trade, in the rightback position to contain Ribery in the Madrid-Bayern game. At Liverpool, Gomez was a centerback before Klopp used him as a rightback. And Flamini played as a fullback in his first years at Arsenal even though he previously shone as a midfielder at Marseille.
            Other examples of good defenders playing out of position: Petit started his career as a leftback and ended up as a central midfielder at Arsenal. Bellerin was a midfielder before settling as a rightback. Puyol played as a fullback at Barcelona before becoming an established centerback. And Thuram was a respected centerback at Parma but was forced to play as a rightback in the France team because Desailly was the undisputable starter at centerback.
            I agree Holding has a better future at CB, but unless he cuts his mistakes, he’s more likely to get some playing time at RB. If legends like Puyol and Thuram accept to play in those two positions, then there’s nothing disrespectful for Holding. And that will help him improve his reading of the game. Same rationale with Maitland-Niles. CM is a position where you can’t afford any mistake. He’s more likely to get some playing time and learn in the rightback position, which makes more sense than the leftback position since he can’t cross accurately with his left foot.

        2. Licht is not illustrative of our entire squad. He fills a very specific need for a very limited time.

          We could have bought younger. But why would a good young RB with any pretensions of being great come where his competition is another young RB who’s homegrown and on a long term contract?

          And is it better for us to have two young and less experienced players competing for the spot rather than one young potential star and an experienced winner to back him up? I think the move makes sense.

  18. The “men” comment was relayed by James on an Arsecast Extra, and he understood it to mean toughness (mental and physical) as much as experience. If we’re looking at players that offer that attribute, I’m all for it. From all accounts, Lichtsteiner is such a player, and nobody who watched his performance against Spain yesterday would have described him as an “old man” in the denigrative way the phrase is being used here. I guess I just don’t see the point in putting a negative spin over this one signing, or even over bringing in a 30-year-old in Sokratis.

    The idea that we’re going to throw money at top players to get back into the CL is wishful since we don’t have said money. Furthermore, you could make the case that we already have thrown this money at players like Aubameyang, Lacazette, and a new contract for Ozil. (I notice you’re now talking about getting rid of Ozil because he’ll be 30 soon. [sigh] No doubt the side effects of having followed Wenger for so long! Mind you, I find the suggestion intriguing, but not because he’s almost 30. Rather, I have a funny feeling he might not take to Emery, and vice versa.)

    On that note, I’d like to make one more case for dialing back the disappointment, pessimism, frustration, whatever it is you’re feeling. Actually, you made the case already. It’s this: We already have an excellent team. Now. Coached properly, I’m convinced they can improve, and finish fourth next season. Honestly, if the only thing Emery does is work on the defense, and get us pressing as a team, we’re getting back into the top four. I look at this team on paper, and I think it should be finishing higher than Tottenham at the very least (I can also see us finishing higher than Chelsea next season, and let’s see if United’s players get fed up with Mourinho…).

    So when I see our targets on the aging side, I think the management team has sensed that two missing ingredients to this team are leadership and mental toughness. I’m inclined to agree, and I’m also inclined to be realistic about what we can spend right now, so I’m not stressed out about Sokratis and Lichtsteiner. I also believe there is more business to be done this summer.

    On Fellaini, it’s been done to death on the last thread. I still think it’s a BS rumor. However, I will reiterate my worry about how quickly some supporters turned against Emery and the IRS yesterday. Over a transfer rumor. Even if true, let’s look at it holistically, not forgetting the quality we do have, and giving a new coach the benefit of the doubt to get the best out of players in a system we have yet to see.

    1. “The idea that we’re going to throw money at top players to get back into the CL is wishful since we don’t have said money. ”

      We have the money. We can totally afford to spend £50m on a player, and we can sell one or two players and have enough to spend the £70m or so that other clubs are investing.

      Sorry Bun, this is an old team and it’s worrying.

      Yes, Lich looks good in internationals and at Juventus, those games are highly tactical and not reliant on speed. I bet he’ll be good in the Europa League, which is probably how we will qualify for the Champions league.

      The other thing here is that this looks a lot like the kind of strategies I’ve seen play out in other sports franchises here in the USA: buying older veteran players on the cheap. It’s always sold as “bringing in experience” but what they are really doing is cutting costs. When you buy players who are there to run out their contracts you’re not investing in the team. Bringing in a bunch of 30 year olds on free transfers and swap deals is just throwing money away. You’re not building value, you’re not making new stars, you’re just buying old players who will decline in value rapidly (I mean both monetary and football value).

      Aubameyang was a good signing, three years ago. Now, whatever we paid for him is 100% lost money and he will rapidly decline in value (on the pitch) over the next two years.

      Sokratis is already 100% wasted money in the same way that Auba is.

      Lich is kind of cheap in all of this, hopefully we don’t find out that they paid him some large signing bonus.

      Ozil may be a good deal (signing him) but we have to sell him now, otherwise he will be a lodestone as his career tails off and completely unmovable because his salary is so high. I was fine signing Ozil, until I heard the salary.

      Arsenal are getting older and as we get older the team gets fewer returns and more players sitting around getting paid to do nothing. I’m telling you, man, the Sonics did this shit (we signed Patrick Ewing, ffs) and it was ugly. It’s not until the team starts investing in youth that they will start playing good football.

      Anyway, I agree with you that this is a gamble on this season. If Arsenal can crack back into the top four, it may pay off, if not, well…

      As for Fellaini, my problem isn’t that he’s a cunt, its that he’s an untalented cunt.

      1. Laudanums all around, I guess? I don’t know why but I really thought the mood would turn around after Wenger left. It sounds like you’re more down on this team than ever, Tim.

        I generally agree that the best teams are built around a core of young guys who break out together and form an identity. The problem is, Arsenal really don’t have that right now and I don’t see a way we can assemble that in one transfer window either. Who is the young core, at Arsenal right now, that you want to build around? It’s not there, maybe in bits and pieces like Bellerin or Holding, but not close to enough. It’s going to have to be brought in piece by piece. It’s not the NBA so you can’t tank, you have to stay competitive to appease fans, drive up marketing and attract good players. It seems to me that they are making a gambit to get back into the UCL places by instilling a culture of toughness and experienced competitiveness by bringing in these sorts of players; then, when they do start to buy the sort of talent that can blossom into a championship team, that culture will have set in and they won’t just punk out, like they did in the project youth era, for greener pastures.

        Finally, I just want to say, wasn’t the vibe at the end of the Wenger tenure that this was a good team and he was holding them back? Now it’s not a good team anymore? I’m so confused.

      2. What!?
        Tim gets to say “sh*t” on here, but we can’t say “s.e.x.y.” without the post getting blocked??!! It’s not fair, I tells ya!

      3. Tim – You are right in identifying the down side of their current approach.
        It’s clearly a short term plan. But fixing our away record is about maturity and toughness, and a few players can make that difference. I’m more optimistic. We’re not winning the league, but we are top 4 material with a few good additions and some tactical improvement.

        But I think you are on to something with the Ozil sale. I’m his number one fan/apologist, but he is the player we can get something substantial for (assuming he has a good world cup), and that money can go back into paying for a much bigger signing. I will dearly miss Ozil’s brilliant moments, but his departure opens new possibilities for a great DM, GK or speedy winger. I also think Ozil leaving gives Ramsey a more prominent role, if he can stay healthy.

      4. Cheers, Tim. I actually do think we’ll sign some young or youngish players this summer, and also believe that we have some exciting young or youngish talent already at the club who will be developed. It’s really a matter of perspective, and generally, I’m more inclined to be positive about things. You look at the team and SMEG and think Seattle Sonics dumpster fire. I see a coach who is meticulous and will get the best out of a team that has, in my opinion, underperformed in recent seasons, given their talents.

        I really do believe that Emery will improve players, and that even if we signed no-one this summer, we could finish higher than sixth next season (though obviously I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t buy players). Patience. This isn’t going to be a drastic change. We’re not winning the title next season, and that’s not a realistic goal. But I think there is a case for optimism, even if (or perhaps because!) we sign a couple of players who are older.

      5. Curiously, I have more issues with cuntism (if I can venture this word) than with lack of talent. But that will be me. I actually think it is very wrong to introduce cuntism in a team. It destroys team spirit much faster than lack of talent. But obviously, the best it to avoid both attributes.
        If the Fellaini rumour is indeed that: a rumour, there is no doubt it achieved the goal of all rumours: get people’s attention and time! If it isn’t a rumour and if Arsenal do sign Fellaini, I look forward to seeing how he will do in a club so far away, in terms of footballing values, from what he represents. I keep thinking he would be a good surprise. Easy considering from how low he starts and the hate he seems to generate (untalented c…).
        I agree he is a strange animal, difficult to categorize. In my eyes, he is an imposing and hard working presence in front of the defense coupled to air dominance. Arsenal needs both. Also, from a few interviews, I got the feeling he was a decent guy (as in good in a locker room, strong team spirit). The high flying elbows are just an unwelcome symptom of his willingness to win the ball at all cost. I actually think he gets better at keeping this extreme willingness in check.
        We shall see…

  19. Who really knows what the transfer budget is? Releasing a figure of £50 million
    is smarter than one of £200 million which just sets the club up to be shafted.
    In the current insane market no one knows the value of a player …paying big £’s guarantees nothing, but if you ask for the ridiculous someone might just pay it. John Stones …£50 million. Rob Holding …..2.7 million ???
    The club is going to have to make clever signings & coach the players properly.

  20. Im with you on that, Ukesox.

    I’d be very surprised if a club of Arsenal’s financial resources, turnover, wealth and market cap allocated 50m pounds to upgrade the squad and get us back into the champions league. I don’t know a lot about the cash side or speak from a position of any special insight, but presumably the board knows the state of the market, what that can buy (even if you add player sales) and that Arsenal’s financial position means that it can afford to spend a lot more than that. It has become hardened conventional wisdom, but I hope that I’m wrong.

    Looks to me like a twin-track strategy with squad building. Emphasise experience in transfers (and possibly look to make one of two big-money signings of younger assets); develop young and inexpeienced talent in the existing squad. Iwobi, for example, looks twice the player for Nigeria than he does for Arsenal. If we develop someone like him into a 50m player he would be… wait for it… like a new signing! 😉

  21. Our ‘young’ team is already there. Except they aren’t ready to, or haven’t taken up the mantle yet. You have Chambers, Holding and Mavropanos. You have Xhaka and AMN and maybe Elneny. And you have Ramsey and Laca at their peaks. Plus Iwobi, Bellerin, and Kola who should improve.

    If the majority of these guys develop well in the next year or two, there is no age problem in the squad. It’s not like we’ll stop buying players anyway. We also have a whole host of kids to choose from. And youth recruitment and development will continue.

    If we’re supplementing them with guys who are older and more experienced, and just on the last legs of their peak, so be it. The alternative is to blow it all up and start again, or to throw them all in it and say go swim, which they haven’t done before.

    As it is. Our transfer priorities were, in whatever order. Ramsey’s contract. CM/DM, CB, GK and backup RB.

    Licht is backup RB.
    I think an experienced CB is exactly what we needed (even if Sokratis isn’t the ideal type of CB)
    For CM we could go with a 22? y/o like Torreira before he explodes in value. Or with Nzonzi and Adli. Either way, I don’t see it as wrong.
    GK is where we need to buy young-ish.

    I think the worst part of this strategy is that we won’t recoup transfer value. I don’t see why that should bother me. We’re not exactly mortgaging the future away, and we’re improving now, while still retaining the scope of the young guys to find their way into the first team. All while we’re waiting for a coach to put these guys through their paces and challenge them to be better.

    1. I’m with you, Shard. I don’t think this is a total roster rebuild, by any stretch. It’s about a culture and mentality rebuild. More rigorous preparation, more tactical sophistication, more toughness and better instruction for the younger players. Iwobi, Bellerin, Chambers et al could really blossom as a result. Teams often sign a few vets late in their career to supplement/solidify the new culture and it takes hold. And those that don’t buy in (I suspect Ozil could be in that category) get moved on. That’s what I hope SIRE have in mind.

    2. Yeah I think this is the correct take. I understand why Tim is freaking out but RB and CB are exactly the two spots where older players make sense right now, and they are probably the easier and therefore quicker deals to do.

      I would say LB, AM, GK and striker are all areas where we need to either buy or promote in the 20-25 age range, and I’m pretty sure the club will be looking to do that. So no panic from me, not yet.

  22. “But what if you’ve already got that future in your academy and they just need some time, and some experienced heads for when they break into the team? I think that is the plan. Get back into the CL by using the attacking talent we acquired last season and having a solid platform behind them. And bring in the youth gradually into the team. When you get to the CL, recruit top players for the gaps that the academy cannot fill. Shorter contracts for senior players would seem to fit into that as well.”
    _________________________________

    I’ve been agreeing with Shard lately to a degree that I find disconcerting. Fix it, Shard 😉

    Yes, I can see the short-term logic in the current approach. Tim’s right in saying the Licht’s age and the league that he’s played in represent risks, but those are mitigated by the fact that he’s backup, and it’s a one-year deal. Tim’s also right that key players are ageing together, and we are storing up a bit of trouble for later, in having to replace several key players at once, sometime in the near future.

    But the strategy is clearly a short-term one, in what looks like a layered approach. Why is there so little talk about the 17 year old Cesc lookalike (from a playing point of view) from PSG? Why is there so little talk about Movrapanos, who looks the real deal and looks close to being ready?

    The concerns are legit, but I’m not worrying… yet. I want to see what we’ve assembled when the window clangs shut.

    1. Agreed, Claude. It’s down to whether you think our existing roster is dismal, or if you think they have underperformed. The home record shows we aren’t dismal. As you say, this year is about creating momentum. Get into CL to show we are on the right trajectory, and are attractive to young/big talent. Go for the jugular in years 2-3. Shockingly sensible.

      1. I’m not as pessimistic as Tim right now about all this, but let’s be clear:

        Our defense IS dismal and our midfield is deeply dysfunctional. Our attack isn’t going to get us into the CL alone. And Emery will make us better but he isn’t going to be a miracle worker.

        1. He doesn’t have to be miracle worker. He simply has to bring some organization to the defense, and by all accounts, this is exactly what he does with his teams. I’m not expecting miracles, but I am expecting a reduction in stupid defensive errors that are the result of a high-line, devil-may-care, two-men-can-cover-50-yards-of-open-space approach that has become customary the last several years.

          1. Bun,
            I think a huge difference between my outlook and the outlook of you and the other “optimists” on here today (ironic that a lot of them aren’t typically optimists wrt Arsenal) is that I think, in addition to Arsene not being good at or willing to coach a defense, many of our defenders are just not that good. It seems you optimists have a different starting assumption.

            Of course they’re fine professionals, some have elite potential and just haven’t gotten there yet, others have a lower ceiling but are far from total scrubs. They’re PL calibre players. But how many are PL-top-6-and-latter-stages-of-the-CL calibre players??

            Kos is crocked. Cech is (apparently) past it. Ospina is a decent shot stopper and decent at playing short passes with his feet, but in every other way relevant to being a keeper, let’s be honest, he sucks. Mustafi is short, not especially fast, not especially strong, and makes waaay too many rash/dumb decisions. Chambers is slow as molasses and generally (though I like the kid) unlikely to ever reach the elite level, even if he’s a solid squad player. Holding has promise but is not ready to be a starter for us, and the sample size on him is way too small to know how good he can be. But only an extreme optimist would state confidently that his ceiling is closer to Tony Adams than Johan Djourou level. Kola is dangerous going forward but extremely sloppy with the ball and extremely sloppy without the ball. Plus not very fast for a modern fullback. Mavro could be a breakout star sooner or later (for all we know), but he’s obviously still very raw and we shouldn’t expect him to be a starter immediately. Monreal is great but winding down. Bellerin is the obvious one to be optimistic about, but even with him it’s not a given he’ll be transformed overnight, considering how badly he’s plateaued the last 2 years. Lich is 34. Sok is 30 and (by most accounts) just below elite level at best, and has some similar weaknesses in his game to Mustafi.

            Am I missing anyone? Am I being unfair to anyone?

          2. Yeah, I think that is the difference, for sure. You are being unfair. You listed our defenders and you shat on them. The judgment is wholesale negative and devoid of nuance (are you really a philosopher???). Others see things differently. If you feel comfortable labelling me as an optimist, I feel comfortable labelling you as a pessimist. My main worry is that fans like you are intent on poisoning the new regime before it’s gotten started. Let’s give them a chance and judge them later, ok?

          3. Wow Bun, repeating the same personal insult (“are you really a philosopher”) is getting a bit old at this point. (I’m tempted to pull an Alan Hansen style “putting my medals on the table” move and post photos of my two diplomas from Oxford and two diplomas from Yale, but that would be a d*ck move, obviously.)

            It wasn’t “devoid of nuance” (the whole reason my posts tend to be so long, to the point of annoying people on here, is that I care too much about nuance), but it was an obviously quick summary of the situation, since it was late last night and this is, you know, a blog comments section, not the Atlantic.

            But if my assessment was as bad and unfair as you described, perhaps you could address where specifically I’ve gone wrong and how, rather than resorting to ad hominem.
            Is Chambers not very, very slow?
            Is Mustafi not very, very error prone?
            Is Kola not very sloppy in possession?
            Are Holding and Mavro not far too unproven at the highest level to be depended upon to be starters for us this season if we want to be a CL calibre team (obviously they could surprise us)?
            Are Kos, Cech, and Lich not coming to the very ends of their careers?
            Has Bellerin’s form not plateaued over the last year or two?

            Please, enlighten me.

            Finally, a word on this whole “poisoning” malarkey. Please. Come off it. I’m not poisoning anything, and I’m certainly not intending to do so. You’ve been a consistently negative/cynical/realist voice (I’m guessing you’d choose the last word) on here over the course of the last few years of Wenger’s reign, saying far more negative things, for far longer, than I have over the last couple days discussing this summer’s transfers (I should say you mostly did it in a good humored way, so I’m not criticizing you). I never accused you of being poisonous or words to that effect.

            Honestly, I’m generally optimistic about Emery, optimistic about Sven, etc. And if you’d look over my comments on here closely, you’d see I don’t have a problem with Lich+Sok, provided they’re supplemented with younger/better buys, not with Fellaini, who I don’t like and feel would be a waste of money. And in general I don’t think signing old guys on the cheap is a good strategy, even in the short term (and others on here agree with me). But I don’t think signing one or two old guys on the cheap is disastrous, and I haven’t suggested it is. My responses haven’t been OTT (except maybe my initial, shocked response to the Fellaini rumors; can’t remember what I said), as much as you seem to want to portray them as such. Now lastly, I’ve also said I don’t think most of our defensive personnel is that great (not awful, just not elite). I said this because I think it’s pretty obviously true, not because I’m being poisonous about anyone or anything. Chill out.

  23. I see a lot of optimism in these comments (as I often do, fair enough.) I appreciate it, I want to be optimistic too. But I’m not very optimistic. I think there seems to be some sort of desire from the hierarchy to distance itself from the Wenger policies. If you look at the two transfer windows ostensibly influenced by Mislintat, its been a lot of old men. Tim is spot on – you build winning teams by buying players about to hit their prime, not by buying players already past it. By the time players are hitting 30-31 they’re on the decline and their resale value is virtually nil. Aubameyang is an exciting player but it is a questionable signing because of his age. You spent 55MM on him and you’re not going to be able to sell him.

    Basically, all of this only pays off if the team qualifies for the Champions League this year and then spends real money in the market next summer on players in the 21-24 bracket and they hit. Is that possible? Sure. But it is an awful lot of eggs in one basket. And the only real hope that this team will do this comes from a full season of Aubameyang and Mhkitaryan being better than a half season of them and a half season of Sanchez and Giroud, and Emery being able to allow the attacking talent to continue to flourish while shoring up the defending with largely the same guys, except Sokratis replacing Koscielny.

    That’s an awful lot of wishing and hoping. Particularly because 3 of the top 4 are basically out of sight for this squad – you’re basically banking on being able to pass Chelsea and Tottenham. The other hopes are things like getting the full Mourinho implosion or City having a massive hangover.

    As Tim states, more was so much more possible. When you look at Liverpool, a club that you’d have suggested we could outrecruit as recently as a couple seasons ago sold one of their creative players and brought in exactly the midfield Arsenal need (Keita and Fabinho) and then also added a top talent at CB and oh by the way, the golden boot winner all in the right age bracket while we sign Lacazette and a bunch of old dudes… its downright depressing.

    1. Mislintat started officially on 20 November 17. Raul on the 28th. They were given the shambolic Sanchez situation, and a nearly expired Ozil contract and told to fix it. And Wenger probably wasn’t aligned with them in their thinking. That’s pretty chaotic, and a tall order. We came out with a lot of players moved on, but Auba and Mkhi here, plus Ozil agreed to a contract. It stabilized things. That wasn’t a long-term strategic plan you can fairly assess. That was “get us out of this sh*t.” We have had 2 weeks with a new coach. 1 official signing. We are not seeing big strategic moves yet. We are plugging holes and filling spots. Could we all take a breath before we decide old dudes is all we are signing? I think this is one big overreaction to (highly unlikely) Fellaini rumors. Doc has rightly prescribed Laudanum!

      1. You’re right that we have to wait and see, and shouldn’t assume the worst from Sven and Raul.

        But I took Gaspar to be addressing the reality of what we’ve done, squad wise, in the last year or so, and where we look to be now, with the Lich and Sok signings, in comparison to our rivals, and honestly assessing what we’d need to do next year to be going in the right direction again, assuming the squad stays much the same until next summer (or at least January).

        In that way, I think his pessimistic outlook is the right one. Things could still get a lot better this window, obviously.

        1. Yes, I’m not projecting anything going forwards, I’m simply analyzing what’s been done as of now. The only projecting I’m doing is the signing of Sokratis since that’s been well-reported as a done deal in virtually every outlet.

          I’m not in any way saying Mislentat or Sanllehi have failed or are incompetent or whatever might be projected from my analysis above. What I am saying is overall, the last 2 windows and the start of this one have put us behind the 8-ball moving forward. Specifically, that with good recruitment and ruthless decisions on our own players, we could be set up for the future but we decided to make more short-term decisions which will be disastrous if the gamble to put us back in the UCL doesn’t pay off. I would also probably argue that even if the gamble does pay off, we’d have been better off with a different strategy, but that die is cast.

          The only thing that concerns me going forward regarding the recruitment team is if this buy older strategy is indeed what they say it is -> a decision on the part of the leadership group that we needed to get older and not what I think it is -> a way to add players on the cheap because there isn’t a lot of money available. If they make the CL next season and the pursestrings are loosened and we start buying players at the right age, then we can start the process we should have started last summer in earnest and all is well-ish. But if our idea of bargain shopping is just washed out-of-contract dudes and cheap transfers for 30-somethings winding down their contracts, then we’re much closer to Everton than Liverpool if we’re making Merseyside comparisons.

      1. It’s a good, thoughtful comment, for sure, and a much appreciated addition to the discussion. Where I take issue:

        “Tim is spot on – you build winning teams by buying players about to hit their prime, not by buying players already past it.”

        We have to look at this in stages. We’re not winning the title next season. That’s not a realistic goal given the amount of overhaul needed in relation to our rivals. What will it take, however, to get us into the top four CL places, such that we can start to attract the best players about to hit their prime or in their prime?

        There’s a short-termism at work, perhaps, that serves the long term, if that makes sense.

        And what about the players currently at the club who are about to hit their prime? I see far too many arguments against potential unrealized when it comes to our players, and far fewer against potential unrealized when it comes to young players not currently at the club. Define about to hit their prime, and then tell us why, on the basis of a guess (because if they haven’t hit their prime, there presumably isn’t any evidence to suggest their world class status), they are better than players like Iwobi, AMN, Bellerin, Mavropanos, Holding, etc.

        I remain convinced that we will buy some young players this window, that we have young players at the club who will be developed, and also that older, wiser heads are needed to guide those young players. A proven winner like Lichtsteiner, and a grizzled fighter like Sokratis look just about right to me.

        1. I agree we’re likely to see more/younger players still come in, or at least one big, top quality young player in defense or midfield.

          So how the transfer business ultimately looks–including Lich and Sok–very much depends on what our next move is.

      2. Also:

        “If you look at the two transfer windows ostensibly influenced by Mislintat, its been a lot of old men.”

        What are “a lot of old men”? Could you define “a lot”? Is two or three “a lot”? And didn’t they replace two or three outoing “old men”? You’d rather have Walcott with us than Mkhitaryan? Sanchez rather than Auba? Mertesacker than Sokratis? Why not suggest we lost a couple of old men, added a couple of old men, and added Mavropanos, with the now potential signings of Adli and/or Soyuncu, Forsberg, or Meyer, all names we’ve been linked with? PFO complains about the “willful insistence” of the optimists, but there seems to be an equal insistence on the part of the pessimists.

        1. This has been an interesting role reversal 🙂

          Bun and Claude are my co-optimists. All because of one Fellaini rumour.

          Ugh and what have I done. It’s SMEG now.. can’t we go back to SIRE?

          By the way, is Red Dwarf worth watching? Is it still relevant?

          1. Curious about Red Dwarf too. A lot of great British comedy back then.
            Watched Bottom recently and that show holds up surprisingly well. Very funny.

  24. A couple of key positives from last season:

    1. Despite our dismal away record, we had (I think) the 2nd best record at home which tells me the issue is partly mental and partly because of lack of organization when facing home teams who are up for a fight. Both are very fixable and I am hopeful Emery can fix that.
    2. Mkhi and Auba only played half the season and despite looking good from the off, a pre-season together with the new coach should make them better.
    3. AMN and Iwobi looked better towards the end of the season and while I don’t expect either of them to become world beaters (unless Iwobi drastically improves his final ball), I think it’s realistic to expect them to become very useful squad players at the very least and if I’m being optimistic, perhaps even regular starters at some point in their Arsenal careers.

    So the team, as it was last season, wasn’t bad though we clearly need help in some key areas. If we add some experienced players to cover for the time being (which seems to be short term plan) and fix some of the defensive issues, I think we can add about 10-12 points to our total from this season which means we should be fighting for 4th place. If Pochettino f*cks off to Spurs, then that becomes even more possible. However, this being Arsenal, I can’t, with 100% certainty, say the current transfer strategy is a short term one. It’s something that’s really going to test my patience but I cannot, will not, get on board with Fellaini. That, to me, represents the anti-plan.

      1. I’d love him to, but I don’t think he’s going.

        If he stays at Spurs, they don’t lose any of their stars (without proper replacements), and we do no more business in this window besides Lich+Sok+similarly underwhelming veteran CM and/or GK+maybe a few youngsters like Adli, then I’d be SHOCKED if we finished above that lot. We have too many problems in defense and deep midfield.

        Case in point: regarding our dismal away record, a huge part of that is now most teams are eager to press us in our away games. We can’t deal with it until we have a functioning deep midfield, which we haven’t had since Coqzorla (a switched on, comfortable-on-the-ball backline would help too), or unless Emery introduces some seriously brilliant tactical scheme that makes us much greater than the sum of our parts and obviates the need to beat the high press by passing/dribbling through it (note: better be something more sophisticated than “lump it up to Fellaini”).

        Otherwise, looks like we’ll be fighting it out with Chelsea for 5th place.

        1. NB: I’m not as pessimistic as that sounds, because I think we *are* going to do more, better transfer business this window. I just don’t get the seemingly willful insistence on being optimistic going on here today, considering the current make-up of our squad.

          1. PFO – I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect more from the same squad as last year. New coaches can give a reset to things, and take some players out of their comfort zones. Some additional tactical help and a more solid, team-oriented defense.and just believing in themselves can be enough to make an impact. Plus, the same team with Auba wins the EL next year. Next season is about momentum. Moving in the right direction. Barring lots of injuries, I think we’ll see it.

          2. I agree in theory. Just think we don’t have the personnel at the back to get much better back there, and in midfield we’ve got talent, but not a compatible and coherent duo/trio, and that’s not all on Wenger.

          3. I completely agree in theory. Just think we don’t have the personnel at the back to get much better back there, and in midfield we’ve got talent, but not a compatible and coherent duo/trio, and that’s not all on Wenger.

            We can and should improve just with the new manager. Just not sure how much.

          4. I really think what we lacked in defence last year was experience. Per and Kos made for a very good defensive duo. With Per retired, and Kos reportedly not even training with the first team regularly, Mustafi became the de facto leader and he’s ill suited to that at this stage. Adding Sokratis defines him as the leader. Now for quality,Mustafi clearly has some.

            Personally I would replace him with either Evans(more old men) or Soyuncu. Because I don’t trust him not to make a mistake every game. But if Emery can work with him to cut out those errors, then I’m ok with it for now.

  25. The guys arguing here for everyone to take it easy on the negativity aren’t optimists, PFo, they’re pragmatists.

    Huge difference.

    Great points all round, but Bunburyist asked some incisive questions in rebutting Gaspar…

    “What are ‘a lot of old men’? Could you define ‘a lot’? Is two or three “a lot”? And didn’t they replace two or three outoing “old men”? You’d rather have Walcott with us than Mkhitaryan? Sanchez rather than Auba? Mertesacker than Sokratis? Why not suggest we lost a couple of old men, added a couple of old men, and added Mavropanos, with the now potential signings of Adli and/or Soyuncu, Forsberg, or Meyer, all names we’ve been linked with?”

    A lot of this discussion seems awfully premature, and more negative than the evidence suggests that it perhaps should be. As I said, I want to look at the totality of our transfer business once the window is closed. Arsene Wenger, bless him, left a mess. Contracts, transfer timelines and execution, squad development, squad composition… Someone pointed to sorting Ozil, Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Sanchez (with Miki in), Auba; re-signing/locking down some of the younger squad members. A lot of the essential cleanup that needed to be done first up, has been done.

    What we’re seeing now is, I’m guessing, Phase 2, non-marquee, but essential gap filling (and good gooners can disagree whether we should go with tried and tested, or younger, untested, but with residual value). Still to come are marquee signing(s), offloading/sales, young player promotion. And that’s just this window. We are in the early days of a long process. I don’t think that we have enough information, yet, to make some of the sweeping conclusions that we’ve seen here. I say that without minimising the concerns, which are not unreasonable.

    This is being pragmatic, not optimistic. Goodness knows that Shard and I aren’t natural bedfellows (a turn of phrase Shard is going to ding me on), but on this, we see eye to eye.

    1. As long as ding isn’t slang for uh..bedfellows being bedfellows, we’re good.

      (He says while looking into your eyes)

  26. Licht made it clear in his interview what the Arsenal project is. To get back into the CL after two seasons without. He also brought up Juventus as similar when he joined where of course they then won 7 straight titles. Anyway, the point is the project that Licht signed on for, for 1-2 years, is to get us to the CL. All this hand wringing about our old men is to be seen in that context

    So say we are stuck with Miki, Auba, Ozil, Nzonzi and Sokratis for another year or two after the project is completed. Successful or not will define Emery’s future too. A) those guys won’t become terrible. B) Nothing stops us from selling players like Chambers, Xhaka, Iwobi or even Ramsey if they’re either not good enough or in demand and start retooling for the next project.

    1. Would like to add-on to Shard’s comment “A) those guys won’t become terrible. ”
      With Auba the exception, each of our attackers doesn’t rely out-and-out on speed. Even Auba– is more reliant on quickness and positioning in the box. Speed can wane, but quickness and guile can be an equalizer for some time. For years after, even. Each of our 30-ish attackers have a cleverness to their game. As long as one retains some quickness, guile is a facet that can be honed sharper as an offset to declining speed.

      jw1

      1. I think this is an important point. Five of the top 10 players in the world as rated by whoscored.com are 30 years of age or greater (Messi, Ronaldo, Aguero, Suarez, Cavani for those interested) and scanning through the rest of the top 50 it looks like at least 3-4 players on each page are 30 or more. All that is to say is that if you’re good enough, simply turning 30 doesn’t necessarily make you ineffective or worthless. I would also submit that players are playing longer than they used to owing to modern training methods. Arsenal used to be notorious for refusing to hand contracts to players over 30, but that was a silly, antiquated policy even before they abolished it. It obviously has to be case by case. It’s also worth noting that some positions are less prone to attrition by aging (CB, GK in particular), but there are examples of players playing effectively well into their mid-30’s for each position in the game. I think we can say that Arsenal football club as a whole has historically under-valued experienced free agents under Wenger for all the reasons that have already been expounded upon, which makes us all more nervous to see them signed than we should be. Building the squad with these types of players in mind should be just one of the many sources of potential quality additions.

        1. Generally sound argument, but a point of minor correction… the club had a policy of not awarding contracts OF LONGER THAN 1 YEAR to players over 30. The capitalised part is what you left out.

          It was a bit cold, but it was logical and businesslike. Residuals fall off a cliff after 30.

          1. That’s right Claude, but the net effect of the policy was that players didn’t want to sign with us, and why should they? I’m not exactly sure what you mean by residuals but I assume it’s something akin to “return on investment” or ROI. Top football clubs have to eat the direct ROI on player resale sometimes; in fact, it can be a financially very sound strategy indeed if the result is winning football that grows your brand, puts butts in seats and secures major sponsorship deals, not to mention the direct and indirect benefits of UCL participation. Obviously going overboard on that strategy is wrong too, but completely abandoning it for fear of ROI loss is silly if it leaves you with an inferior product on the pitch.

  27. Holy $hit ,that’s a lot of hand wringing about one signing and a couple of rumors.
    As someone who had done his fair
    ( perhaps more) share of bitching and moaning under Wenger , I’m willing to kick my feet up and watch what gets done through the Summer at relative ease.
    We have already got three most important acquisitions done.
    The new manager is one, Structure and Pashun are the other two.
    All players will start with a clean slate and try like hell to make an impression and the starting 11, while the organization and attention to detail by Emery( by all accounts) will give them a leg up on the $hit show they were used to under Wenger in that department.

    Like Claude , I too find a bit weird to agree this much with Shard.
    Let’s just hope the topic of Mother Russia (world’s greatest democracy)and comrade Putin ( its peace loving leader) don’t get mentioned , and this idyllic coexistence just might continue 🙂

    Klopp said he needed a full season to really get to know all his players.
    Guardiola said he needed more.
    Give Emery at least that.

    1. Indeed, it’s only fair, especially considering he, unlike they, is stepping into a very different sort of situation where everyone and everything is completely steeped in one man’s philosophy. That type of situation takes longer to make your own than taking over form Manuel Pellegrini or Brendan Rodgers.

    1. I like this signing. Young player on the verge of breaking out. Hope he comes good. Would love to sign a midfielder between 22-25 years of age but I wonder if we have decided to rotate between AMN and Willock in giving them chances to play with the first team. Nketiah, by all accounts, is deemed to good to keep playing for the youth team (though he just turned 19) so I can see him either going out on loan and being rotated for cup games along with Nelson. That’s about 5 players between 17-19 right that’s showing a lot of potential. Meanwhile we have forgotten about The Jeff who has done well at Angers and has earned a France U-20 call up. We won PL2 for the first time last season so I’m sure the hierarchy is going to try and give these kids every chance to succeed. I am on board with that. The caveat being we add the players where we need to add.

      1. Hoping we keep our most talented youth close to the club. This group maturing now seems to have thrived training/playing with first teamers. Mostly our loanees stagnate (JRA an exception) away from familiar environs.

        jw1

    2. Well then.
      That seems to drop the mean age of the squad to hmm… (taps 10-key) approximately 26 years on average!
      (~chortles~)

      jw1

    3. Awful that they’d mis-state his age by half. No way that old man is 17…

    1. Controlling chaos rarely provides satisfactory conclusion.
      Working well within chaos (done with intent) finds fruition on offer more often than outsiders expect.

      jw1

      1. That’s The Tao of Pooh, which we Westerners either never learn or reject on principle because we’re brought up to believe that we can only get ahead by controlling our environment and beating the others in the race.

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