I have this image of a child dropping a porcelain cat. As it drops it spins around to reveal that it’s a Mankei-Neko, its face a placid boredom, its right paw raised, beckoning the viewer to join it as it falls away and breaks into a hundred pieces.
I can’t decide if the child threw the cat and her mouth is ugly and her eyes furious, or if the cat slipped and she is shocked and her face lachrymose. It’s not important that I get it right. It doesn’t matter to the cat: he was already always broken.
I know. Tim and his tepid takes on the impermanence of life.
I have seen a lot of non-Liverpool supporters gloating about Liverpool’s loss to Real Madrid in the Champions League final yesterday and it all feels incredibly harsh. Three weeks ago I was pretty public in my support for Liverpool over Real Madrid: Pool were exciting, they played attacking football, they didn’t just spend hundreds of millions of Euros to get where they were, and they aren’t a bunch of leg-breaking cheats.
I was rebuked by my fellow Arsenal supporters who argued that Scousers would be “unbearable” with their own gloating if they were to win this trophy. I understand the argument a bit: if your cell-mate at your local prison of a job has a moment of joy in their miserable life, it reminds you just how miserable your existence is. But it wouldn’t have lasted long before their bubbly joy would turn to simple reminders of how many european trophies they have and how we have none. Which is similar to what we say to Spurs supporters all the time with our reminders that they won the League in Black and White and questions about how many trophies they have won since Pochettino took over.
But imagine rooting for Real Madrid. Real Madrid, the team that just buys every good player in the world and brags about it calling them “Galacticos”. They make more money than everyone else, they get special tax treatment by the government, and they win nearly every trophy in sight. They are the Manchester United of world football.
Even their players are gross. Gareth Bale scored two goals to win the trophy for Real, one was an overhead kick which has been described as the “best goal in Champions League history”. Meanwhile, Cristiano Ronaldo’s career is nearly over and he was clearly overshadowed yesterday by Bale’s two goals. But rather than let the moment be about someone else for five seconds, as soon as the game was finished he “let slip” that he had enjoyed his time at Real Madrid and would be making an announcement about his future soon, hinting that he might be on his way out the door.
And then there’s Real Madrid’s center back, Sergio Ramos: a part-time footballer and full-time cheat. Ramos dislocated Mo Salah’s shoulder with an arm-bar takedown in the 28th minute. This is a player who has 24 career red cards and who collects red cards like panini stickers in big games. A player who has no problem flying in to a tackle out of control, who throws sneaky little elbows, who slaps, and who when touched goes down like he’s been shot. The only difference between Ramos and Ryan Shawcross is that Ramos is a better passer and a much more deceptively dirty player.
Given all that Real Madrid stands for, it was a surprise to me to see so many Arsenal supporters on the side of Real Madrid yesterday. I get that Liverpool supporters are annoying (for the record, they think we are annoying – reminding them of the 1989 title win all the time and how we have won more League titles than them since 1990), all supporters are annoying when they win. If you’re near any Real Madrid supporters right now, let me know how gracious they are being.
But who on earth would want to win the way that Real Madrid won yesterday? Who would want to win by breaking your opponent’s arm, then having the opposition goalkeeper make two career-ending errors? Stoke City supporters would take it, and I guess so would Real Madrid supporters. But if you’re a neutral?
I feel for Liverpool supporters tonight. I feel for Loris Karius. I feel for Mo Salah. This was an incredibly harsh night for all.
P.S.
I have seen the Get French Football translation of the Marti Perarnau interview with Unai Emery. This is a stolen work. Perarnau printed that interview in his magazine “The Tactical Room” which is behind a paywall. Get French Football copied the work (from another blog, they claim) and translated it without any links to the original content and with a simple mention that Perarnau wrote the original (“with credit” they say). I confronted Get French Football on twitter about this theft and they said they they copied it from another blog and they they give credit to Perarnau.
This is awful. I have had my work stolen like this before and I can tell you, as an author who puts a lot of time into my craft that this feels similar to having your car broken into.
Do not share that translation. I will do a write-up of the interview tomorrow (without stealing the whole work) and I have reached out to Marti Perarnau for further insight.
Oh, do leave off…
I didn’t really care all that much who won, but I felt angry at Ramos and sorry for Salah.
Losing a CL final because of keeper mistakes? Don’t remind me of 2006…
Football dislike*, like politics, is local. In cases like this, you have to pick your dislikes. I don’t know any gooner in my circle of gooner friends who was backing Liverpool. In fact, nearly all are taking delight in their humbling. I’m down with that. Most English non-Liverpool fans (not counting Her Majesty’s press corps, Reds to a man and woman) are down with that. I quite liked Gary Neville’s poem on Twitter. Misunderstand local tribalness at your peril. Liverpool, with their self reverential YNWA, something none of Karius’ teammates extended to him yesterday. Gareth Bale was the one who walked over to console him.
It’s possible to root for Madrid in this one game, and feel
1. Sergio Ramos is an awful excuse for a human being
2. Heartbroken for Salah
3. Sorry for Klopp
There’s not one team in the EPL Top 5 I’d have rooted for yesterday. Not one. All tribalness is local.
*Dislike, not hate. I don’t hate Liverpool. I don’t even hate Spurs.
Yeah, this makes sense to me. I say I didn’t really care, but in truth I can’t say I wanted Liverpool to win, and that would have been true of any English team, pretty much. But I was gutted for Salah, and I do think Ramos is a criminal.
I think you can hold a sentiment like that because you live far away from the UK. I totally understand why British based Arsenal fans wouldn’t want Liverpool to win. I say that is someone who lives in the same region as you, but lived in England until I was 9.
Many arsenal fans want a leader like ramos wit all d dark arts stuff yet some say no he’s evil.livafool is a salah team.he makes them good.without him they become livafool.arsenal have a better 11 and bench even youngsters dan them.it’s about making them come together.
Y u tok Lyk u iz frm Wakanda?
Dis iz not de wey!
Oh, and of the game itself, Cristiano has lost a step, and for the first time in his illustrious career, I feel he’ll get pushed hard for his place in the Madrid starting XI. Liverpool’s excellent right back had him in his pocket all game long. Using Jack’s logic from last thread, HE is someone I’d cash in on if I was Florentino Perez. His name alone will fetch a premium, but I don’t think he’s the player he was even last year.
Marcelo is one of my favourite players in the game, and the best, most intelligent full-back on the planet. What a player.
I think that Brazil is back ass force, and will win the world cup
Ass force. Lol.
When it comes to who should win, I miss the days when I first began watching football. Everyone was ok until they showed themselves as not so during the match, tribal loyalties didn’t find their way into my world. Then maybe..MAYBE…I would have wanted Liverpool to win.
As it is, I don’t see why I should support a team that has the British media enthralled, like Spurs, while holding them to different standards than us. Why I should support a team and fanbase who chose to take the micky out of Arsenal for a legitimate bid for Suarez (which they in contravention of their contract refused to honour) Or a team that supported Suarez with T-shirts for that matter. Eff Liverpool.
And…The thing is…They didn’t deserve to win. I didn’t even think the Ramos and Salah incident was that egregious. Both hooked arms with each other, Ramos dragged him down, true, but it wasn’t Diaby/Ramsey leg break, or Alonso elbowing Bellerin in the head dirty. And Salah injured his other shoulder oddly enough.
Plus Karius’ errors are on Liverpool. I see no reason to feel sorry for them (I can sympathise with Karius and I thought it was terrible that none of his teammates came up to him at the final whistle.)
Didn’t Real have more academy players in their squad? Liverpool have spent more than Real in the past 5 years apparently. I think Real have been smart in how they’ve built the side, and though they actually aren’t spectacular, they really know how to get the job done. I don’t like them, but they deserved the win. Liverpool didn’t.
On Karius, it seemed like Kloppetto was the only one ever convinced by him, a tragic comment on the fallibility of managers to evaluate talent dispassionately. Likely, Karius is a likable guy who works hard and impresses Klopp with his intangibles. I feel like Wenger used to have the same thing for a lot of his players. It just shows how the human element can creep into our decision making and in this case, it arguably cost Klopp a UCL final.
You had no tribal loyalties in football in your early days watching? 😲
Blimey.
I’m taking that with a pinch of salt. Place is a strong belonging identity of football, of sport. So we have Partizan and Red Star, Spartak and CSKA, Persepolis and Esteglal (Iran). It’s true of everywhere. India and Pakistan cricket fans know that it’s more than just the beautiful game.
So don’t loftily disdain tribalness. It’s about 40 percent the whole point.
Haha. My first sporting pain was the 96 cricket world cup where India lost the semi final to Sri Lanka (It was disbanded because the crowd at Calcutta – as it was known then- couldn’t handle the disappointment) I loved the QF where we beat Pakistan. But honestly, if we’d lost it would be about the game and not the tribalism for me.
Similarly in football. I just knew I didn’t like ManU because of the hype around them. I remember us playing against Bayern or Juve and being overawed that we belonged at that level. I even ‘liked’ Spurs as a small team who were ok to watch. I guess I was just getting to know the game and it was beautiful.
Euro 96 was the first tournament and my first real introduction to the game. I loved the 98 World Cup. I liked Arsenal (and Rivaldo’s Barcelona) but televised games were few (mostly the big games) To date my most painful memory of Arsenal is not the CL loss to Barca, but the FA Cup semi loss to ManU in 99.
There’s nothing lofty, or disdainful about it. I loved getting to know the game through fresh eyes. Maybe I really would have wanted Liverpool to win then. I’m happy to embrace the tribalism of it now. The problem with that is that everyone else is a ****.
How can you be this smart?.. You just nailed everything I had to say.. Sergio Ramos for all I care has got the mentality of a winner.. hate me from now on, I’d stick with that!
Liverpool didn’t deserve to beat Roma if you take ref’s decisions into account and they barely deserved to beat City for the same reason.
As for “supporting “ them or “hating” Real , these are words that don’t really describe my true feelings unless someone’s idea of supporting a club playing in the CL final is to go to the beach instead of watching the game live , which is exactly what I did.
Real deserved to win because they are a better side , purposefully built over the last 5 to 10 years.
The fact Liverpool outspent them in the last 5 years means very little when you can buy worlds most talented and expensive players just before they enter their prime , and have the ability because of your status as the elite club to hold on to them until you decide they should leave *( not to mention players out on loan),
Argument you yourself were making in relation to Arsenal outspending Chelsea over the same period of time( inconsistent much?)
Real had the first pick of Salah according to Roma reports and Zidane passed.
Real Madrid didn’t think Salah was an improvement on any of their attacking options.
That’s all you really need to say comparing the talent pool of both clubs.
*That’s how we got Ozil.
This was to Shard
Nope it’s not inconsistent. My point was to say that Madrid are not the Galacticos that Tim stated they were. Not for the past 4-5 years. Not that they still aren’t the richest (or close to it) and I know they are the Big 2 in Spain which helps them keep that dominance. But they have bought well and they’ve promoted academy players (yes there too they have an advantage over all English clubs). Actually unlike Chelsea, their sales aren’t suspiciously overpriced either. I almost included the part to say that Liverpool were startng from a lower base, but I didn’t think it relevant until you force me to prove some consistency as if I should feel the same for Liverpool as I do for Arsenal.
If Arsenal were in the final against Madrid and lost like that, I might bemoan the injury to our best attacker and say it might’ve been different and I bet most here would put on their analytical hats and disagree with me. But I wouldn’t bemoan Real Madrid’s money. (Old money is harder to criticise because it’s impact isn’t as dramatic) I usually have no problem with Arsenal losing to a better team though. Which is what happened to Liverpool.
Glad you follow my arguments so closely. But somehow you seem to misunderstand them all the time.
Third highest wages in world football, third most valuable team in world football.
They have an interesting transfer record: it’s both wasteful and frugal at the same time.
Their transfer budgets have been constrained by FFP but they still manage to sell off mediocre players for huge sums – di Maria £67m, Morata £60m to Chelsea, Danilo £27m, Jese £23m to PSG, Ozil for £42m to Arsenal. And they also have a propensity to take a dump on players: Sahin was a £9m loss, Illaramendi cost them 15m, Silva 12m, etc.
They also spend money like water on backup players and squad depth. Coentrao cost them 27m and played about 20 full games a season for four years before being loaned out, Kovacic cost 28m and has basically been a sub his whole career at RM, etc.
As for their great academy, they have four guys: Nacho Fernandez, Achraf Hakimi, Marcos Llorente, and Borja Mayoral. Of those players only Fernandez played more than 1500 minutes last season. Fernandez played RB in the match against Liverpool, but only because Carvajal was injured.
Oh and they already landed a kid from Flamenco for £40m and loaned him back out to his original club: Vinicius.
Özil is a mediocre player now?
Don’t flatter yourself friend,
I don’t follow your arguments any closer than anyone else’s .
I simply remember what was said I the past regarding finances since this had been the hottest topic for Arsenal fans all over.
You haven’t been consistent because you pro Arsenal bias is way up there I can’t even see it on the chart any more:)
Only someone with such an overwhelming bias can state unequivocally a player with no history of violence and dirty play like Alonso, intentionally elbowed Bellerin in the head. While at the same time go out of his way trying to explain away one of the dirtiest players active in Ramos.
So I must agree with you or else my position is simply biased and you are the standard bearer of impartiality? Right.
My view: Real Madrid bad (but less bad than before) Liverpool bad (and their win bad for Arsenal) Real played better.
Difference in finances, still there, but not such a huge gap for a ONE-OFF game. We were arguing Arsenal’s league position vs wage spend. Arsenal have more FA Cups than Chelsea including beating them in the final last year. Arsenal lost to ManCity in a cup final and I never brought up their finances as an issue. Over a league campaign it obviously matters more.
Alonso has literally killed someone by the way. And he was making the elbowing gesture prior to the FA Cup final to the cameras. Bellerin getting a concussion was a joke to him. And the media said he just wanted it more.
“Alonso has literally killed someone by the way. And he was making the elbowing gesture prior to the FA Cup final to the cameras. Bellerin getting a concussion was a joke to him. And the media said he just wanted it more.“
Way to go in conflicting elbowing gestures he was supposedly making with him killing a passenger in his drunk driving accident which he himself was part of.
Not to condone drunk driving by any one let alone a 20 year old footballer, but the very fact you even mentioned this in the context of his on the field behavior , shows your immense bias.
One has virtually nothing to do with the other.
It shows a lack of care for someone else’s well being, as does the Bellerin incident and the Wembley ‘banter’. You not seeing that is YOUR bias. Or can you not see that you are biased for your opinion too, like every person is?
And I wasn’t ‘explaining away’ Ramos the footballer. I think he’s dirty as f***. I think that play was dirty too. But not the level of dirty that is being ascribed to it because Salah got injured and Liverpool didn’t do enough to win. Those sort of arm lock falls and take downs happen often enough in football. Yellow card offense and no more. The hit on Karius, which I missed at the time, was dirtier and deserving of a red. And I missed it because it was also sneakier. Ramos also invited and exaggerated the contact with Mane to get him booked. He’s dirty dirty dirty. There, have I satisfied your needed outrage quotient so as to qualify as unbiased? Sheesh.
“It shows a lack of care for someone else’s well being, as does the Bellerin incident and the Wembley ‘banter’. “
It shows lack of imagination and good judgment on his part , his teammates/ friends who were in the back seat , and also the poor girl in the front seat who was partying and drinking with them, and wasn’t wearing seat belt at the time of accident.
Still, zero connection to Bellerin incident where he simply out jumped a much shorter player who was jumping from a standstill , while he himself had a healthy run up.
You and I can disagree about his intentions on the play but to quote what media had said about , or to bring up his car crash into this is totally irrelevant and does show your bias.
Yes, I consider myself one of the least biased people I know to the point of incriminating myself, my friends and family, or even my entire Country if I feel something is true enough.
You can call me self righteous if you want to and that’s fine 🙂
But to finish our exchange on a more amicable note I will say this. Yours was the best reason yet given for rooting against Liverpool in that game.
Liverpool winning CL would be bad for Arsenal for many reasons and that I can certainly agree with.
You’re not “supporting Liverpool”, there’s a world of difference between actively hoping that a team loses, actively supporting, and just not rooting against someone. I wouldn’t classify you as a Real Madrid supporter last night, you were actually just an “anti-Liverpool” viewer.
I love that you bring up Suarez for the millionth time. Liverpool did EXACTLY what we should have done with the van Persie deal and just said F-off. As for “honoring the contract” it was Luis Suarez who could have pushed that deal through, it was Arsenal’s “brain trust”who were duped by Suarez’ agents and it was the PFA who took Liverpool’s side and said that Suarez’ release clause wasn’t a release clause. FFS.
I love that you hate them because they had a player who committed a racism and they supported that player and that you’re also mad at them for NOT selling us that (racism committing) player over an imaginary release clause which the PFA said didn’t exist and which the player refused to sue over.
Amazing.
We were saying F- off over Van Persie, which is why he released his you guys statement. To force our hand by making his position, as captain at that, untenable. Agree that Suarez could have pushed that deal through, but let’s see what he did before you claim he duped us. His agent spoke to us. We bid the release clause amount, and Liverpool refused to honour that part in his contract. Suarez went to the papers saying let me go, and he went to the PFA. The PFA chief’s statement was ridiculous. He didn’t say it’s not a release clause. He said it’s often unclear whether it is or not in such cases, or some such vague bull, and expressed concern over the little time left for Liverpool to find a replacement. That rings entirely of corruption to me. The players’ rep acted on behalf of Liverpool. At that point Suarez could either sue, which is very unlikely to happen, or sign the new and improved deal on the table. He chose wisely.
And I didn’t want Suarez at the club, precisely because of his racist, and bitey actions. I am not bitter it didn’t happen. I am happy we got Ozil instead. I am bitter about how it played out in the media, how blatantly their owner went on TV and said Liverpool decided that contracts don’t mean anything (so much for imaginary release clause), and I do not like the ‘values’ this shows Liverpool as embodying. So yes, I wanted them to lose. Both in terms of morals (both are ‘bad’ clubs as far as I’m concerned), and in terms of Arsenal tribalism where of course there’s only one choice. The caveat being that if their play deserved it, I’d have no problem with them winning. Which it didn’t.
Should be pointed out that RVP was in the last year of his contract, and Suarez wasn’t. We had much less leverage than United did.
I was so disappointed for Liverpool. Yes they’re fans can be insufferable but they deserved better, after the season they’ve had, than to be cheated out of it by Real Madrid. I wouldn’t even call that a wrestling move as you’re not supposed to injure your opponent in wrestling. Cheating bastards.
I wrote a reply to claude over on the JB thread that I’m copying here with some amending but my overall sympathies mirror Tim’s:
Real Madrid is the epidemy a modern football club, as if constructed by a Hollywood producer, with as more emphasis on cultivating their brand as on their actual football, which doesn’t really matter as long as the team wins. Everyone associated with them is suffused with a sense of the inevitable success that comes with the name of the greatest football club that ever was or will be. Complaints about entitlement at Liverpool is like complaints about the brightness of the moon before the sun rises; Madrid are the club with the ultimate, they would say, only entitlement: to be the best club and have the best players. And for three years now, they have been the best, all the while maintaining an uncharacteristic continuity only made possible by their very own success. It was too much to hope that Liverpool might break that hegemony, and although I agree that their gloating would’ve been hard to suffer, I would pay that price 100 times over to feel like football is not predetermined, to feel like watching the games has a point because there really can be outcomes other than the dominance of the same 2-3 teams on a rotating basis. More than that, I quite like Klopp and the shaggy, sweaty, brutally honest way his Liverpool play the game, even if Zidane’s band of celebrity athletes make them look like a second league outfit with those gaudy possession stats and silky buildup play. As much as I love football for its purity, a jogo bonito/ total voetball and all of that, it’s becoming impossible for me to tune out the methods that have led to the construction of this legion of glossy centerfold footballers. Zidane himself is the perfect maestro to lead them, his Gallic sense of cultured elegance and his own legendary playing career combining to exude a sense of inevitable perfection demanded by his paymasters. Part of me wants to celebrate that polished excellence on its pure footballing merit and part of me wants to despise it because I am not ignorant of the power plays hat have gone into its construction. My inner football fan, apart from the aesthete, longs for a time of inglorious innocence when football matches were still mostly about the sport and their outcomes were not pre-determined, like a Calvinist stain on our souls (thou shalt not win the UCL unless thou art Real Madrid or thou art coached by Guardiola, or thou hast spent >1 billion in transfer fee). That part of me delights in Liverpool’s unorthodox (pun intended) authenticity and underdoggedness, who, by the whim of the footballing gods and against all odds from the vantage point of their incredible success in the 1980’s, has assumed the mantle of hopeful outsiders in the 2010’s. It seems the furies though prefer the perfectly coiffed artists, or they wouldn’t have robbed us of Mo Salah in the first half, or have Jurgen Klopp so convinced that Loris Karius was up to the task of being Liverpool’s #1.
Elegaic, almost. Sport is raw, dirty, irrational stuff. I’m glad Madrid beat Liverpool. I’d have felt differently if they were playing Dortmund. Your analogy with a Hollywood production misses the mark widely in one important respect… they are much, much more than the sum of their modern method of government. And they have some terrific footballers, and the wonderful Zizou in the dugout. It’s perfectly fine to hate on or dislike clubs. You and I are doing exactly the same thing.
The irony of Madrid for me is that their squad continuity, which has never historically been part of their model, is what has made them so successful, but they have only been able to maintain that continuity because the squad was so successful. The core of the cohesion that Zidane now presides over has matriculated into the spine of that team since about 2013 and is essentially unchanged in several key areas. The Hollywood analogy pertains to the look and feel of their play. If you wanted to depict, on film, the perfect looking team with stars who “look the part” you could do no better than Sergio Ramos’ bad boy vibe, Marcelo’s bouffant, and Cristiano’s chiseled abs. And the best part is, Madrid doesn’t have to tell them to look that way or do these things, they have incentive enough due to endorsement deals or simple vanity. They have learned to cultivate their own personas in carefully curated social media accounts, interviews, etc., just like any well known actor might.
Why I read your work– and tell others they should.
jw1
Agree completely, Tim.
The clock has struck midnight on the Liverpool’s CL fairy tale this season at least.
After enjoying most of the lucky breaks against City and Rome, everything went against them in the final.
If you were a neutral Arsenal fan rooting for Madrid and against Liverpool then I have some serious reservations about your entire approach to football.
The club that represents everything Arsenal supposedly stands against.
It’s kinda like rooting for Wall Street bankers because the guy whos behind on his mortgage and might have his home foreclosed by them is an obnoxious neighbor you just can’t stand.
Then there’s the “ Klopp is a fraud” faction of footballing fandom because he hasn’t won a CL final yet. Sure, nothing says fraud and failure more than losing to the likes of Bayern – a club with twice the evaluation of B Dortmund under Klopp, and Madrid – a €866m behemoth that gobbles up top players at will.
What other club in the world can afford to have a player of Bale’s caliber come off the bench to tip the scales for you?
His 330 minutes of total play in CL this season represent barely three games and a half.
In the end Real got both talent and the luck when it mattered most.
Howlers from Bayern second string keeper and Karius and the last minute pen against Juve.
How many on here believe Arsenal would get that call from Oliver, or any other ref in similar circumstances?
“If you were a neutral Arsenal fan rooting for Madrid and against Liverpool then I have some serious reservations about your entire approach to football.
The club that represents everything Arsenal supposedly stands against.”
I don’t think it’s so simple. Madrid represents tradition, the establishment, and also, to a point, beautiful football from a capital based club, all things that it has in common with Arsenal. As I wrote above, I think they’ve taken the vision for celebrity football branding to a nauseating level, but I do think that just makes them the first of many. They represent the direction football is heading, and everyone else is just trying to catch up. That direction is driven ultimately by the ever increasing monetization of football, and Arsenal, like everyone else, are desperate for a piece of that action. We may long for a return to the days of innocence, but I can’t see it happening.
Was their football all that beautiful this year? Moments of brilliance here and there, sure, but they were mostly toughing out games and having large slices of luck go their way (e.g. their opponents suffering injuries to key players and their opponents’ keepers making massive errors).
Look, there’d be plenty to dislike about this Madrid team even if they were obviously the best team on the planet. The straw that breaks the camel’s back for me is that, this year at least, they’re clearly not. League campaigns are a much better barometer of a team’s quality than a cup competition can ever be, and Madrid were pretty awful in La Liga.
But inevitably the official narrative will now be that this is the best club side in CL history, one of the best of all time, etc, when they’re nothing of the sort. Pep’s Barcelona in their pomp would have routed them last night.
Maybe they would have beaten Liverpool last night regardless (though my guess is it would have been close), but the reasons they did IN FACT win were:
1) Ramos injured Liverpool’s star player and one of the best player’s on the planet, and
2) Karius made too huge goalkeeping errors.
Depressing.
I’d say they are a great team near the end of their championship cycle and had one last big cup run in them, but not the consistency required for everyday excellence in the league. This is a common theme in the evolution of teams across all sports, and the Golden State Warriors are experiencing their own version of it in the NBA.
Tom Tom Tom…
You who have frequently sung the praises of Manchester City 😔
Seriously?
Look, I’m not personalising this debate. We are ascribing to something visceral, a level of detached logic that simply isn’t there. Or that we don’t observe ourselves all of the time.
Rubber meets the road time, Tim, Tom, Doc and Eduardo. Who would you have supported in a final of…
Man United and Madrid…
Tottenham Hotspur and Madrid?
I hope you didn’t read my post as a criticism for you supporting Madrid against Liverpool. I was trying to make a broader point while describing the reasons for my own preference. The affliction at Madrid is not unique to them but is probably the most developed of any club I know. Still, I don’t judge their supporters. As I said, part of me wants to root for that polished perfection too. And I would’ve supported Madrid in both of those hypotheticals you mention. Unlike Masterstroke, I am not British and don’t feel any allegiance to a club just because it’s British. I rooted for Liverpool yesterday because their style of play and Klopp’s style in general appeals to me.
No, I did not take it that way, Doc. I appreciated your polite and eloquent engagement. I dont take Tom’s that way either. Some of us see things very differently, but they’re all fair points.
I’ve made my feelings crystal clear about Mourinho and United.
Dislike United because I believe they have been getting preferential treatment in the league , if not recently, then under SAF for sure and Arsenal and Wenger had suffered for it.
Mourinho, to whom you refer as merely “charmless “ is one of the most obnoxious characters in football and by this virtue alone he needs to be rooted against by anyone with a soul 🙂
So yes, United and Mourinho come before Madrid in the most hated list 🙂
Tottenham?
I have no ill feelings towards them because I’m not London based and this rivalry means very little to me.
Pep and City?
I only like Pep because he plays the most attractive football and seems an all around good guy.
When he got his a$$ handed to him by Klopp and Liverpool, with some dodgy officiating notwithstanding, I didn’t make any excuses for him and if he played in a CL final against a club with a fraction of City’s financial muscle, I’d probably root for the underdog too.
I think there’s more accord between our positions than you may want to admit. Id unapologietically root for anyone who is playing any of the teams that finished in the Top 3, and no, neither Liverpool nor Chelsea tip the scales back in favour of English opposition. Burnley or Watford, very likely. I don’t think that those are particularly unusual or controversial positions
None of them.
I would hope for a good game and be upset if Ramos broke Pogba’s leg.
This is like asking me who I support in the World Cup.
You know you don’t HAVE to support someone.
That’s true.
I noticed the anti Liverpool thing over on Positively Arsenal yesterday (in the comments section), and thought what a load of turds.
I’m UK born & bred and am old school enough to remember when all football supporters over here got behind all British sides in Europe, and this includes Spurs.
I was as thrilled for Celtic being the first UK side to win the European cup as I was for Liverpool coming back from 0-3 at half time to win last time out.
I detest the gloating. People are sad. I feel for Liverpool.
The venn diagram for Arsenal fans claiming CL can only be won by the richest handful of clubs in Europe , and Arsenal fans rooting for the same handful of richest clubs in Europe against the likes of Liverpool is a circle.
For those who cheered for Madrid instead of Liverpool yesterday, it was more a matter of where you’re engaged. For example (and again, want to reiterate that I wasn’t heavily invested in this game), I don’t engage with Spanish football at all, so them winning it means very little to me. On the other hand, as Shard’s earlier post exemplifies, I’m involved with other English clubs, and some of them, like Liverpool, I have history with, and it’s mostly antagonistic.
I don’t think it’s a sign of moral bankruptcy that someone supported Madrid, as some are suggesting here. If we were truly concerned about morality, none of us would be supporting any of the big clubs in the world.
(and Arsenal are one of those big clubs, by the way)
I was rooting for Real Madrid up until that Ramos take down on Salah which was done with intent to maim. I didn’t want to read the hurrah about Pool and Klopp if they had won Then I switched because now Pool were never going to win and they had been stabbed in the back by Ramos and their own GK. The goals by Bale were nice but that’s not the first time a Pool GK (Mignolet) has been beaten by a long range goal (look up Xhaka’s strike).
Liverpool have a keeper problem and everyone knows that.
But unlike a club with unlimited resources they just can’t go out and spend another €40 m because the keeper they got last season for €18m turned out to be underwhelming. City could and did just that.
Karius came in with a modest €6m price tag and like most times in life you get what you paid for.
His attempted save at Kolarov shot from distance against Roma was almost identical to the save he attempted against Bale’s shot , but was able to get just enough contact on the ball to push it into the crossbar and out.
His take down of Dzeko where he got nowhere near the ball should’ve resulted in a pen if not for a blown offside call.
His save on El Shaarawy’s shot where he pushed the ball straight to Dzeko for a tap in was also a very poor example of goal keeping.
Three glaring mistakes in the semifinal he was lucky to get away with. Not so in the final
Like Tim said his Liverpool career is over.
I’m with you about plagiarism and pay walls and all that, but I’m frustrated by how expensive it’s become to read things online. What do you think about a system that charges per article, instead of a full on subscription? I know it’s much less secure, but seems fair. I never see it talked about.
Re: Liverpool: as another Yank, am less moved by hatred of Liverpool, and more by hatred of Madrid. Seems there’s no justice in the world anymore.
That’s a really intriguing idea. Like $0.25 an article or something? I bet that would generate a TON more revenue than a monthly subscription.
Late to this debate, but I’m siding with Tim, mostly:
1. I didn’t care who won before the game, or, more accurately, I knew I would be unhappy with either winning. This Liverpool side are more likable than others in the recent past, but their fans and ex-players in the media are insufferable, and, more importantly, a CL win gives them more clout with potential transfers right at a time that we’re trying to claw back level with them on the pitch. Meanwhile, this Real Madrid team are just about the most unlikable club side since Jose’s Chelski.
2. But after what Ramos did to Salah, I was completely behind Liverpool, as I expect almost every neutral was. I know we can’t be certain of other people’s thoughts and motives, but I feel about 95% confident that Ramos meant it, because of how it looked AND because of who did it and which player he did it to. Maybe he didn’t purposely set out to break his arm, but he probably meant to hurt him.
And for everyone giving him the benefit of the doubt, put it this way: if that had been e.g. Santi Cazorla committing that foul, I’d have said, “almost certainly an accident.” But it wasn’t. The identity of the player absolutely matters in making these calls. This is a guy that, in addition to all his red cards, has REPEATEDLY set out to injure (or come close to injuring) Leo Messi in Classicos for years.
What he did yesterday to Salah was disgusting. In football, as in life, there’s rarely any justice.
3. Thank you, Tim, for saying it: “gross” is exactly the word I would use to describe Cristiano Ronaldo as a human being. Not only did he drop the hint about leaving Madrid after the game, he made a ridiculous comment about how, since he’s won the CL so many times, they should re-name the competition the “CRonaldo Champions League,” or something like that. The sad thing is he probably believes what he said. The man may have the body of a Greek God* but he’s got a pathetic, puny, malnourished, shriveled up little soul. He’s like the Platonic Form of everything wrong with egotistical sporting superstars.
And quite apart from his character, he’s overrated. Yes, I know he’s been brilliant, and brilliantly consistent. I’m not denying he’s an all-time great.
But anyone who thinks he can hold a candle to Messi is either a Man United fan, a Madrid fan, or has a brain that doesn’t work that well (putting it diplomatically). I’m so stinking tired of him picking up that stupid ballon d’or just because his team wins the biggest trophies even when it’s obvious he’s no longer the best player in the world. It’s almost enough to make me root for Argentina in the World Cup…
* Though read this for some food for thought:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-murky-questions-surround-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html
Damn.
“So serious was it, the cellmate of Fuentes, when in custody, said he told him if the story came out, Spain would likely have to give back the World Cup.”
We all have contradictory positions, including Tim (sorry Tim).
I (and Jack has made the same points as I have more forcefully) think that today’s Manchester City is an awful enterprise — they and their petro dollars owners, and those owners’ appalling human and workers’ rights records. Tim has spent much of the season waxing lyrical about City’s play…
But it’s only their play, you may say. It’s not a commentary on their ownership. It’s purely about Pep and his tactics. To which I’d respond, Zizou, anyone? I don’t particularly love Madrid, but I love football, and I can still applaud them for having a terrific team, the team that deserved to win on the day. That I wanted them to win, isn’t really germane to what I’m about to say.
Madrid were better then Liverpool, overall. They did very very well to weather a terrific Liverpool press, and Klopp’s complete nullification of their talismanic forward, which was tactically wonderful.
I was thinking watching the game yesterday how much I really heart Luca Modric, who contributes much more in their engine room than is appreciated, including defence. Isco, a blur of ferrying and clever movement (the sort of player that Jack Wilshere might have developed into), who unlucky not to have scored. Marcelo, a quite wonderful and intelligent full-back and footballer. And the understatedly effective Casemiro, one of the reasons that Brazil will triumph in Russia in 2 months’ time. Varane, reading and breaking up play all game long. Benzema, who won’t be going to Russia with him, staying woke and reading Karius like a picture book. And Bale, who demonstrated to Arsenal players who like to fanny about in the box looking for the perfect chance, that you won’t win the raffle if you don’t buy a ticket. Was that by chance? I doubt it. Zidane must have told his players to test Karius, because he’s suspect. And Zizou. Don’t lecture me about Liverpool romance when it’s Zizou in the Madrid dugout.
Who have I left out? Oh Ramos, a complete C U Next Tuesday. There’s a long road travel between committing an intentional foul (which he did), and wanting to cause a serious injury (which isnt as clear-cut as is being stated with great confidence. Both players had a grapple, Ramos much more so). But hey, I’m not here to be a character reference for him (he also feigned a hit in the face from a Liverpool player, and I wanted to throw up).
Some of the Madrid disdain seems rooted in sound argument, but so much of it seems contrived. And it’s positionally inconsistent.
Of Liverpool, everytime I see Mane play, I’m amazed at his stamina and sheer will to win. The young left-back Alexander Arnold is a wonderful prospect, and I reckon he should start for England in Russia. Their right back did not give Ronaldo a sniff all afternoon. They’ll come again next year, but hopefully we will be stronger than they.
If I had Ramos in my arsenal team, I’d be so happy..
How would you feel about Mourinho as manager?
Very negative.. first off, he hates attacking football.. then he’s a schmuck!
If Ramos wore an Arsenal shirt and committed the fouls he does in a Madrid shirt you’d see a terrific waste of costly salary. He’d be red carded time and time again. Just like our new soon to arrive swashbuckling DM that’ll show this weak and uncommitted Arsenal team how to tackle and win stuff, whoever that might be.
I don’t think his considerable abilities as a defender are worth seeing him in an Arsenal shirt. Suarez was kind of scummy too, but I didn’t mind having him. Not Sergio Ramos.
Even tribalism doesn’t trump ones’s basic sporting instincts: that grit and graft and daring and adventure deserve some return, that any sense of entitlement and destiny and narcissism definitely don’t, that teams win and lose together and so stand together when they fall, and that brilliance always deserves applauding.
Difficult to have wanted a Liverpool win but impossible not to have felt for them after being undone by calamitous and catastrophic mistakes, and the successful cynicism of one of the ugliest proponents of the cynical arts.
That said, difficult to do anything but applaud the brilliance of the goal that ultimately undid them.
And to condemn the lack of compassion and support shown to Karius at the end of the game.
Tribalism is good, and fun, and definitely part of being a fan but, amid reports of death threats being made in the aftermath of the game, it needs to be kept in perspective.
It was a shame Madrid won but Bale’s goal was brilliant.
Karius had a complete nightmare but deserves the support of his teammates.
And football is but a game.
I think point number 1 of what PFO said need to be emphasises. I always put Arsenal before purity. I’m pretty sure if Simeone become Arsenal head coach, Tim will be over the moon. What the CL final represents is who will get advantages next season regarding player recruitments and confidence at the start of next season. It’s a no brainer, there’s no way any Arsenal supporter will support their competition to get a head start. Put it like this, if we compete with Liverpool on Oblak, and he definetly pick one of Arsenal or Liverpool, we will curse Liverpool when he choose them because they’ve won the CL this season. It’a what happened with Hazard and it will happens if Liverpool won it. They already in front of us and no need for them to go even further.
I’m glad Liverpool lost.
That the Liverpool fans who sent their own keeper, and his family, death threats are unhappy warms my heart.
I’m not about to defend anyone who threatens an athlete over their performance in a game, but the sad custom of death threats after cup final howlers is not unique to them and doesn’t represent the vast majority of the fanbase. It’s part of the ugly side of the beautiful game and it happens all over the world.
Agree. I kind of feel bad for my many Liverpool friends. They are overwhelming a decent fanbase.
You know honestly, I agree with you. My comment isn’t really a good enough reason to be glad liverpool lost.
I’m glad they lost because they’re a rival.
I agree with arseblog in the sense that enjoying the pain and misfortune of sporting rivals is one of the pleasures of sport. I hate Liverpool. I hate Man United. And to a lesser extent, I hate Chelsea and City and Spurs.
And if none of those teams ever won anything again I’d be happy.
I can understand being english and supporting the other english teams against the ‘foreigners’, but I’m irish, so (on a purely sporting level) taking pleasure in the failure of english teams is probably part of my DNA.
And honestly, the better liverpool played or the more they ‘deserved’ it only makes they’re defeat even sweeter.
I guess it just bothers me to be on an Arsenal site and be told something’s wrong with me if I don’t support Liverpool in games like this.
For me that is, unfortunately, to be expected. Ramsey gets death threats too from Arsenal fans. And that’s when he’s WON us cup finals. People are A-holes.
But what really surprised, and amazingly, disappointed me, was that not one Liverpool player went to Karius. Even Klopp, though he hugged him later, did it unfeelingly. Stuck entirely in his own misery.
By contrast, the Liverpool fans were more forgiving when Karius went up to them in tears and apologised. I lost some respect for Klopp, and all respect for Liverpool players. And much as Arsenal fans (me included) have this reputation of blaming the referee or something else for Arsenal’s losses, it feels to me that blaming someone else is a part of Liverpool’s culture in a deeper way. So Ramos is the villain, they booed the ref at the end (not sure for what), and even the team found one of their own to blame. Yeah, Liverpool can go jump. They didn’t deserve the win.
Huh.. our own fans send death threats all the time over much more minor stuff.
The second reason I am reading this blog at 3 am local time is that you are a proper human being. Copying someone else’s entire work is not only immoral, but also illegal. Thank you for calling out the GFF people.
F maDrid, barCa and the corrupt spanish failed state.
Grabbing most of the allotted tv money from all the other teams, state sponsored tax breaks, unparalleled spending, and the fix is in referee’s, all make for a disgusting mix.
Would never in a million years root for them, and would rather cheer for Valencia, Malaga or other in the place of disgusting institutions.
Go Huddersfield.
Thank you for also pointing out that they rob their own league of competitive balance by hoarding all the TV money. The are a gross club.
Doc. but the ‘Hollywood’ nature of Madrid you refer to is because you know this to be the case or pay attention to it. Not because (except Ronaldo) they really showed it. As you mentioned, they’ve actually moved away from the galactico model over the past 5 years. Bale was probably the last statement signing. And their net spend has been relatively low (Even negative some years) I think that’s why they’ve seemed less disgusting to me over the past few years. In fact they’re better than Bayern Munich who simply buy out their league competitors’ best players, even for free, or arranging transfers among other clubs for their own benefit.
Real Madrid is what it is, but their signings have been well thought out, they’ve promoted academy players, and while they weren’t great at all this year especially, they don’t panic and know how to win. They deserved to win.
Thanks!
But they do show it, Shard, every last one of them does. And it’s not just their finely cultivated personae, it’s also the choreographed, silky way their albacore tunics flit about the green grass, their aura and mystique, their history, the whole club is just crying out for a 10 hour movie montage that I’m sure is available in their museum’s gift shop. The Hollywood reference is not altogether pejorative, rather it’s a comment on the evolution of football from smelly tribal mosh pits to a refined elegance enjoyed with a 10 euro beverage and a smart phone in either hand. Real have cultivated that evolution more than most.
I think you just associate that with them. The doctor actually just has the poetic temperament to see the romance of Real 🙂
It’s a consequence of their winning the CL the most times, by a wide margin, I guess. That creates that aura around them.
Albacore tunics! Nice.
Shard, on tribalism which we talked about upthread…
One of the best days of football enjoyment for me was beating Tottenham 5 -2 at the Emirates, after they’d gone 2-0 up. A huge crown of gooners walking down the Holloway Road singing…
Two-nil
and you f**** it up
two-nil….
felt very sweet. Slivain Wiltord winning the league at Old Trafford in front of a purple-faced Fergie was also delicious. United were our biggest rivals then. I wasnt at Old Trafford, but I watched the comeback win against Spurs in the stadium.
I enjoy being mindlessly tribal at the game, and a bit more reserved and analytical afterwards
I was there for the 5-2. The Tollington and the road outside was crazy. Everyone celebrating. Tribalism at its best.
Who wants to win like that, Tim? How about “Everyone”?
Gooners like to claim the moral high ground until you scratch the surface and realise it’s all bullshit. We had a manager who was famous for wanting to win the right way and wouldn’t countenance some of the antics of players like Ramos and what did we do? We hounded him out, with even “reasonable” blogs like this declaring repeatedly that he was past it, his methods and approach outdated. We got tired of hearing about how decent a man he was because we really don’t give a shit about decency. The simple truth is that we got tired of not seeing our team lift the shiny silver pots, and we got tired of the banter online. Even the FA Cups we won recently were dismissed as second-rate by many.
There isn’t a single Real Madrid fan out there right now holding their nose and thinking how appalled they are by winning the Champions League off the back of Sergio Ramos taking out Liverpool’s most dangerous player. In fact, there isn’t a single Gooner out there who wouldn’t trade places with them in a nanosecond.
We had a manager who lived by his principles, who wanted to win the right way, and we told him to fuck off. Please spare us the sanctimonious crap about the manner of Real’s victory.
First off, no one on this blog “hounded” Mr. Wenger.
Second, no one on here demanded Wenger abandon his principles to win.
Third, these things are totally different topics. Wenger was past it not because he refused to cheat to win but because he didn’t properly prepare the players, didn’t properly coach the players, because the vulnerability in his rather singular tactics had been exposed years ago, and because the players rather publicly gave up on him these last three seasons.
Finally, the only one who sounds sanctimonious here is you. You probably don’t believe it but you are taking a moral position: you are a “win at all costs” guy. I’m not.
It’s funny how my criticism of “win at all costs” fans who therefore wanted the manager gone for not winning enough somehow got flipped into ME being a “win at all costs” person myself.
Very strange, tribalism. I would have thought it stopped when it’s about international games. One roots for compatriots and resumes hating them at national level. Obviously not so, for many. I would have hoped that being FOR a team wouldn’t mean being against all or some others so fiercely. If I was English, I would have been proud of Liverpool and rooted for them.
But I’m a Belgian. I supported Liverpool (you were dying to know!). Mostly because they were the underdogs. Also because I really don’t like CR, the silly blonde locks, the stupid smile, the abs exposed at any occasion, the useless and inelegant tricks he used to no effect other than showing off. He used to be very good. He is only good now, mostly because of an uncanny sense of being at the right place at the right moment. He has become a very high level poacher. Which means he entirely depends of his team mates. Unlike Messi who consistently makes it happen, creating danger out of nothing.
I do like Zidane however who I see as a nice guy who learnt his new trade with modesty, behaves and does not seem to need to remind everyone of how good he was on a pitch. And I like the fact that many key Madrid players were not bought at the top of the markets (Asensio, Carvajal, Casemiro, Navas,…)
As a Belgian, I had a short moment of satisfaction for Mignolet. Did he feel vindicated for a moment? Did he smile discretely? I don’t think so actually: he is a better man than me. At the end I was hoping he would rush to Karius to help him out, armed with that connection that ties those who know their mistakes will not be forgiven. But that did not happen and Karius was left alone for very long…
Excellent post.
Well written. Your English is better than mine!
let me start my saying that i’ve always been a bigger fan of the game than of any team. with that, i agree wholly with claudeivan’s post. the bottom line is that real madrid simply figured out how to solve the liverpool conundrum that has troubled so many teams this season. at it’s essence, madrid’s approach is the beautiful game.
pep’s players are drilled into playing a certain way that works with, essentially, every team they play. however, it didn’t work with liverpool. when pep’s strategy failed, the man city players didn’t have the tactical skill to find a way pass liverpool. madrid’s players, on the other hand, had the ability to solve the problem that the liverpool press caused them early in the game. this requires players having the ability to think and solve problems. that was the beautiful part of the game for me. it wasn’t the strategic changes implemented by the coach, but the tactical tweaks done by the players.
a few threads back, i made the same point to pfo about breaking the press being less of an individual technical skill and more of a tactical team skill; one player can’t beat a well executed press. you need to have your third attackers involved in the build up or you’re going to be exposed regardless of how talented you are. in the build up to the first bale goal and especially after, you saw real madrid solve the liverpool press like a rubik’s cube. they relied on their patience, intelligence, and they continually switched the point of attack. when you do that to a pressing team, it’s like body blows in a boxing match; they begin to wilt with time and the press becomes less pronounced. that’s what happened to liverpool the other night and that’s why it was such an easy win in the end. sure, you can point out the bad goal keeping but what does that have to do with liverpool’s inability to create any good chances late on? that was a masterclass by real madrid.
I also noticed, that to counter the press second half, they passed the ball more quickly. Get it, shift it quickly. Ping it, one -touch. Show for it when your treammate had it. A lot of play went through Modric in the centre, and Marcelo on the left.
Oh btw, Toni Kroos was poo, imo.. Just slow in thought and execution all afternoon. It was hardly noticed, because others picked up the slack. If I could bring one Madrid player to the Emirates, I’d bring Modric (ex-Spurs, so that’ll be a no from him). He’s not a Galactico, but he always plays. And the reason he always plays is that few people in football links, knits and stitches the play better.
He’s Madrid’s Cazorla, only a better version.
***Kroos was poor, before Bunburyist gets on my case 😀 These slips. Oh dear.
Besides ass force, your best slip today was crown of gooners. It’s ok. I drink and post all the time! 😃
lol.
Have to change my morning rum diet. Phones and fat, clumsy thumbs.
I should proof-read more.
i remember eduardo was talking him up, saying that he was the best player he’d ever played with and he was interested in joining eduardo at arsenal. we screwed the pooch, again, and let him go to tottenham.
Josh,
I’d never claim that one player could consistently beat a press all by themselves. And even those that can do it an impressive amount of the time (e.g. Spurs’s Dembele) need help and the right tactical plan to do it against the very best pressing teams. We agree.
But you also obviously need players of (or close to) the level of Kroos and Modric to beat the press by performing the “tactical team skill” that you describe, at least on a consistent basis against the best presses.
Maybe you don’t need a brilliant dribbler like Dembele, Keita, or Santi (I wouldn’t say Kroos or Modric are great at dribbling), but you do need supreme ball-players. Do we have even ONE midfield player even CLOSE to the Kroos/Modric level? No. Which is why it’d be nice to go get one, or someone as close as possible.
…as for the original question, the thread title “who wants to win like that”? in a cup competition, winning is all that matters. if i can win a champions league, an fa cup, a world cup, etc., i’d take a win however i can get it.
All I saw was a midfield of Modric, Casemiro and Kroos vs. Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner. Isco v. Lallana. Lovren v. Varane.
Credit to Liverpool for getting as far as they did, but they were definitely more than the sum of their parts this season. After that first 25 minutes or so, Madrid were very much the better team.
I’m not a Madrid fan, but to be fair, they haven’t bought anyone of note for a fairly long time. The club is heavily in debt.
Points I’d like to reiterate for sake of salience.
PFO:
2) … more importantly, a CL win gives them more clout with potential transfers right at a time that we’re trying to claw back level with them on the pitch.
======
This one ‘hits home’.
Arsenal first, always. Never a question.
Not ‘rooting for’ Madrid. Relieved they won.
+++
Serge:
He (Ronaldo) used to be very good. He is only good now, mostly because of an uncanny sense of being at the right place at the right moment.
======
Like (anything about) him– or not? CR is great yet. The ability to score clutch goals elevates him still. His CL goal runs these past 3 years are more than racking up totals. Real have rode Ronaldo’s CL scoring to unprecedented victories.
Measuring greatness requires a yardstick. The CL is Ronaldo’s.
Many prefer to use rivals. Unfair to both CR and Messi to compare. Either? The greatest player of their generation– locked in close binary-orbit with the other. Ali/Frazier. Bird/Magic. Messi/Ronaldo.
+++
Karius Will Forever Walk Alone.
Pool’s BS bubble burst in-perpetuity.
+++
jw1
agree 100% concerning ronaldo. so what, he didn’t score on saturday. the dude set some sort of champions league goal scoring record this season. madrid don’t even get to the final without his contribution. he is still a badass.
Ronaldo is still a bad*ss (you can get away with spelling that word without the asterisks on here and not get your comment blocked?!). I wouldn’t deny it. But he’s also overrated, in that he’s gotten ballon d’or’s these last few years largely because his teams have won the biggest (aka most high profile) trophies, and he’s turned it on in those competitions on occasion, but not because he’s been consistently great.
And it absolutely is the case that Ronaldo is waaaaay behind Messi, for the reason that Serge highlights above.
I honestly think the primary reason for Madrid dominance in the CL these last few years (other than luck), has been the midfield duo of Modric and Kroos (with Casemiro doing a solid and crucial job of screening behind them). You can’t teach the kind of composure on the ball that those two have, and the fact that they have two such players in their starting lineup means you can’t just concentrate on stopping one guy.
Ronaldo’s great but you take him out and you have Bale, Benzema, Lucas Vasquez, Asensio, and Isco (and before this year, James and Morata). You take out Modric or Kroos and you don’t have that same kind of quality (because almost no club in world football has that same kind of quality).
I guess I’m just always a midfield guy, who sees their contribution–a hundred perfect decisions in tight spaces, knitting the play together–as typically far more important than the contribution of the guy who got the last touch of a many-touch attacking move, but who typically gets about 95% of the credit. No doubt someone can come on here and show me the error of my thinking. No doubt what Ronaldo consistently does is very difficult. But I doubt think it deserves the outsized amount of praise and credit it’s gotten in the autumn of his career. And he’s also an egotistical spoiled child.
With Messi, he orchestrates the play, creates the penetration, AND applies the finishing touches. There’s no comparison.
Oh and Marcelo is the cat’s pajamas, and has a *ridiculous* amount of influence on his team’s success for a left back.
Im a midfield guy too. My two favourite gunners ever, are the two former No 4s Vieira and Fabregas. They overlapped a bit, but never in their respective primes. What a midfield they’s have formed. Still, Petit was an awesome player, who doesn’t get his full due from the fans. Gilberto. Edu was very much underrated as a player. Pre-Milan Flamini, who displaced Gilberto at water-carrier, was a terrific midfielder for a while.
We both love Busquets and you described him as the ultimate elegant beast, or words to that effect. Modric is a different kind of player… both are supremely technical, good users of the football.
Madrid had good balance… (to attach crude labels), a ferryer, a conductor and a stopper. None of the labels apply fully to 3 really good footballers, but theyre for the purpose of illustrating that balance. Liverpool, as much as they a great game plan that worked, did not have that quality of personnel. Interesting to see if Oxlade-Chamberlain is developed there, but he’ll never be at Modric’s technical level.
Ronaldo was well contained yesterday, and had clearly lost his burst of explosive speed. But such is his skill level, that he’ll still get chances, and more often than not, he’ll take them. He doesnt suffer from low-self esteem, but he’s been a great player, for United and for Madrid.
BBC reporting that Liverpool are on the verge of signing Fabinho for 40m. And they’ve got Keita coming in too.
They’re doing alright in midfield (and everywhere else). Much better than us.
Is it just me, or has Liverpool absolutely destroyed us in terms of squad development since Klopp came in?? It can only be down to our own incompetence, since they haven’t had greater wealth or pulling power in that time.
We bought Mustafi while they bought VVD. We bought Xhaka and Elneny while they bought Keita and (probably) Fabinho. We bought Mikhi and Auba (great but old) while they bought Mane and Salah.
Darn. I’ve been championing his cause on this blog for weeks. He’d be a big addition to their midfield… a straight upgrade on Henderson and Milner (a sometimes CM), good but limited professionals. I think he’s world class, and will thrive under Klopp.
And you’re right. They’ve bought better (and sold better. Coutinho and Saurez, anyone?) than Arsenal, by far.
You made the point about winning the CL being a recruitment magnet. Being out of it is also detrimental to top drawer recruitment.
Yeah, I think there’s missing out on the CL being bad for recruitment because players want to play in it asap (which is what everyone always brings up, and was an issue for us to some degree last season), and then there’s missing out on the CL being bad for recruitment because it creates the impression that your club is second tier.
I know the summer’s young, but I get the feeling that the latter might be happening to us this summer in a way that it didn’t last summer, and I think that’s going to be much more damaging to our longterm goals than just missing out one time was.
Engaged in some confirmation bias (Doc, please weigh in if I used the term incorrectly). I thought Modric was superb. Im not a professional analyst, so I went googling for an analysis to see if I read that right. This, from none other than Steven Gerrard…
“That performance today was stunning. He (Modric) receives the ball in tight areas, he gets pressed by three or four people, he’s so calm, collected, cool under pressure.”
And Frank Lampard…
“It’s like he spends eighty per cent of the time, him and Kroos, just taking the sting out of the game and moving the other team. Then when they decide the crucial pass that goes forward to put a bit more pace into the game, they just do it. They dominate possession.
When you’re on the other team it’s soul destroying because you can’t get near them.
Modric plays like he’s in the park. He’s never bothered – ‘I’ll just receive it and move it on’ – he’s so calm.”
Gerrard also asked if he’s the best midfielder in the world. I wouldnt go that far. But to the champions of Europe, he’s their most vital cog in the middle. Here’s the analysis, at the 9′ mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZLtTyaE3tE
And here is a Modric mashup from the game, his White Boi dancing at the beginning notwithstanding…. https://twitter.com/BTLComps
Good to see the little fellow getting some appreciation. He’s one of Zidane’s most reliable players, and he’s not a galactico.
Seems like Lampard disagrees with me on Kroos, who I thought looked anonymous, and got found out time and again by Klopp’s press. Frank saw it differently.
Jordan Henderson did not look out of place in such elevated company, and conducted superbly for Liverpool, for about half an hour. The midfield was where the battle was at its most fascinating. Klopp has improved him and James Milner as players (and he’s found a gem in Trent Alexander-Arnold).
I couldn’t agree more. The midfield is the heart of everything, where the fine margins of the game are skewed in one direction or another, and Madrid subsumed Barcelona and Bayern in recent years as the team with the best balance of skill and work rate.
Modric, Kroos, Casemiro. That’s the platform. Zidane’s great innovation was moving Casemiro behind those two maestros to give the midfield a bit more weight. Then they won the UCL twice. Kroos also helped Bayern win it the year before he joined, I believe.
The midfield will be Unai’s great white whale, where the challenge of this rebuild/restructure will be won or lost. I think he’s up to the task of assembling a good unit.
What I found remarkable about Modric is the way he’s able to position his body so that when he receives the pass, he can control it with either foot or hit a one time pass with either foot. He’s never off balance, and he always finds the space, wherever you leave it. Xavi-esque, if I may say. That’s what gives him such security and calm. It occurred to me that we may not give him enough credit for being an incredible athlete to have such a powerful core as to be able to sustain that for 90 minutes.
Honestly though, I feel like most fans WOULD like to win the way Real did the other night.
News Report
‘Arsenal FC, one of biggest and most successful teams in world football wins another champions league final. While not at their best, the star studded team from London did enough to beat one of the form teams of Europe 3-1 with the help of one of the best goals in champions league history from their ‘back up’ €100m forward.
Ugh. I see Liverpool are signing Fabinho. He’s a player I would have hoped we’d be interested in. But, you know, at least we’re signing a defender…who by all accounts had a terrible, error-ridden season at Dortmund!
Are we heading for a distinctly underwhelming transfer window? I think so.
I think it’s likely to be underwhelming because our needs right now aren’t in attack. And defensive efficiency will depend on the system as well as the players. Which we know basically nothing about right now.
Fabinho would have been good, but first step is to get back into the CL. If we can stay relatively solid defensively, I think our attack will win us enough games to get top 4.
Plus I have a feeling the club will make a surprise ‘wow’ (small letters) signing
What’s with us buying all of Dortmund though.. Not very super scouty from Diamond Eye.
Exactly what I’m thinking.
And, no, missing out on someone like Fabinho isn’t the end of the world, but seeing young, coveted players like that go to Liverpool is super depressing. Very, very recently we were their betters or at least their equals. Feels like we’re falling behind quickly. If the best keep getting better this summer, then all our efforts to make up ground on them will only be that much harder.
Low-hanging fruit start-of-window?
Need a CB or two. Speaks Greek+.
jw1
It was a very nice interview to get insight on Emery. Disappointed and shocked to hear it was stolen. Appreciate the length you went to. 👍🏽
Never hated pool until i started living with my new roommate who is a scouser fan. Trust me… Pool’s loss made everything better. Real fans are even worse but luckily we dont have to put up with them.