How do Arsenal go forward from here?

Another weekend, another disappointing result for Arsene Wenger and Arsenal. Well, it would be disappointing if you expected Arsenal to get a result. After the turmoil of this week, coupled with Arsenal’s horrible away record, and given Brighton’s recent form, I expected a loss.

The Guardian dropped a bombshell this week when they published an article which described a closed-door conversation between players about Arsenal’s recent slump. To paraphrase the conversation: a senior player says that his kids are asking why Arsenal suck and that it’s painful – I assume this is Koscielny; another player steps up and says Arsenal are a big club and the players should get help from the coaches – I think this is Mkhitaryan or Aubameyang, someone who hasn’t been at the club for very long; and a third player chirps up and says that there won’t be any help, the players will have to figure it out for themselves – this is the player who leaked the conversation in all likelihood and I think this is a German player because they have been leaking to various members of the press for a while, so.. Mustafi?

There are direct quotes in the article and it’s published in the Guardian. The Guardian’s editors don’t publish unfounded rumors as original news and so the reporter, David Hynter, was almost certainly required to corroborate the story with others who were in the room. The piece also contains direct quotes from two different players, which again would require at least two different sources. Given all of that, I feel confident that this report is accurate.

There are some who are upset at the “mole(s)” in this piece and others who think it’s fake news but for me the part that’s most interesting is the bit at the end, where a player says that the players have to figure it out for themselves. This is something I have been saying for years, which is corroborated by every book I’ve read about Arsenal and even by Arsene Wenger himself, and yet it still seems a controversial point. It’s not. It’s just a fact of Wenger’s managerial philosophy.

To some degree Wenger is right. He will often say that he can’t stop a player from making a rash challenge. He can’t run out onto the pitch in the seconds before Bellerin kicks Eden Hazard and say “don’t do that”. The players have to figure that out for themselves.

But in another regard, he’s completely wrong. The players make rash errors because they are in a panic. They are in a panic because the Arsenal defensive schemes are so weak and the Arsenal attacking scheme leaves spaces and exposes players to one-on-ones in the counter which leave them vulnerable to making mistakes.

He’s also wrong in another way. That if players aren’t given structure they can do what we’ve been seeing these last few weeks, they can hide.

Phillipe Auclaire spoke to Andrew from Arseblog the other day and he described watching players make runs in offense which prevented them from collecting the ball. If you’ve played the game, you know what he’s talking about. You can make a run which makes it difficult for a teammate to pass the ball to you. Auclaire said he saw the whole team doing this at times. And if you think back to this week’s matches you will almost certainly remember seeing Ozil drop deep to collect and often having no one around to pass it to, then getting pressured, and dribbling around for a few seconds before passing it back to a defender and reprimanding his teammates for hiding.

Auclaire also described players faking their running stats by making recovery runs too late. These stats show up in the manager’s report and give a clue as to why Wenger would say that the team put in “their most physical performance” of the season in the 3-0 loss to Man City. Another stat that shows Arsenal put in a physical performance is that they attempted a season high 47 tackles. They only won 25 of those tackles, but they attempted them.

On the pitch and off the pitch, it looks like Arsenal are no longer playing for the manager and actively want him out. We can have a conversation about whether this is right or wrong in the comments, I don’t have time for that discussion here because I’m concerned with how the club moves forward from this.

There are nine Premier League matches left and I could see Arsenal losing every single one of them. If that happens, and the teams below Arsenal play to their form this season, Arsenal could finish as low as 10th. Remember back in June when I said that I don’t expect anything above a 10th place finish at the start of this season? That we as fans need to adjust our expectations?* Looks like yet another prediction I got right.

I also expect Arsenal to lose both legs of the Europa League matches against Gattuso’s AC Milan. The way this team is playing right now I can’t see anything other than 11 straight losses unless there is a change.

That said, I am in the minority in that I don’t think Arsene Wenger should be fired. Not only does he not deserve the indignity of being fired, I don’t think there is enough time for a new manager to come in and get this team playing anything other than a defense first scheme. Arsene Wenger has proven over the years that he’s capable of getting his team to do that which leads me to a bit of a controversial opinion.

I think what needs to happen is for the players and the manager to get together and agree to finish this season out playing simple, defense-first football. Play on the counter and make Auba, Ramsey, Mkhi, and Ozil look great and give the defenders a break from being exposed constantly. This will require player sacrifice – the midfielders will need to be committed to defending. But Ramsey has done that in the past and can do that for a couple of months. Same with Jack Wilshere.

But there’s a key element here. Wenger has to put aside his ego and agree to step down at the end of the season. He has to admit that he’s not able to do the job any more and go to the players and say he needs their help. Then in May he can publicly say he’s stepping down and everyone can have a party in his honor at the Burnley home game. Or he can announce it earlier and he would have opposition supporters clapping in his honor at every away game this season, even Man United supporters would honor him.

Maybe I’m a dreamer. Maybe it’s a dumb plan. But I love Arsene Wenger for what he’s done for this club and I don’t want to see him fired. I also don’t like watching this; players forcing him out by faking their way through games and away fans chanting for him to leave.

So, I want the players and the manager to get together, do their damn jobs, play some damn football, and finish the season like professionals. Then everyone can part ways this summer.

Maybe it’s a dumb plan but it’s the way I’d like to see this club move forward: with dignity and grace, working together, victoria concordia crescit and all that. Not sabotage and backstabbing.

Qq

*I also said I didn’t expect players like Aubameyang to come to Arsenal, that arsenal refuse to pay agents or pay over the odds for players, and that Alexis and Ozil wouldn’t re-sign for Arsenal. I was wrong on almost all of those accounts but only because the club got in two new executives who took responsibility for player recruitment away from Arsene Wenger.

143 comments

  1. Very good summary of our plight, but can’t see us getting 11 straight losses from here. There’s no way that’s going to happen. We’ve had 4 on the trot. No way we’ll end the season with 15 straight losses. By loss No. 10, Wenger’s gone. And then the team will thump somebody, signaling another false dawn. Heck, even if Wenger stays (and it should be the end of this season and no longer), we’ll have the false dawn of some wins, and probably save our Europa place. Then of course he’ll want to “respect his contract”, but should be told a very firm, “no, that’s it”.

    1. Having said all that, we should frame this:

      “I think what needs to happen is for the players and the manager to get together and agree to finish this season out playing simple, defense-first football. Play on the counter and make Auba, Ramsey, Mkhi, and Ozil look great and give the defenders a break from being exposed constantly. This will require player sacrifice – the midfielders will need to be committed to defending. But Ramsey has done that in the past and can do that for a couple of months. Same with Jack Wilshere.”

      Could not have put it better. Chelsea yesterday was super, super negative against City, but imagine if Fabregas had found Giroud with a good corner kick, rather than the near post defender with a shockingly terrible one? Chelsea who were outclassed far more than the score suggested, could have stolen a draw.

      So yes, defence first. Make us more solid and harder to beat. And drop Cech. He’s past it.

  2. When I was watching the match, it seemed like what you would expect if the squad had never played together before; everyone doing their own thing and not knowing where their teammates were likely to pop up. Is that what Auclair’s talking about? Sort of false runs?

    1. The false runs are specifically “tracking back” in defense. I think he’s having a go at Xhaka in this critique. Watch Xhaka. He lets his man go by him and recently has been busting a gut to get back.

      1. I think Auclair was referring also to forward runs; busting a gut to get into a forward position you know has no hope of receiving a pass, therefore hiding in the interest of telling the club’s stat people (and hence the manager, etc.) that you gave a lot physically in the match. I think he said this happens or can happen when you’re playing against opposition you know you can’t beat.

        1. Didn’t he also say that he saw like 4 players run into those positions all at once?

          1. Yes. And that this observation was made to him by a former player with whom he was watching the match. Any idea who it would be? I don’t know anything about Auclair’s circle, other than that it’s wide and includes people from all sorts of backgrounds and occupations. I know Pires attends matches pretty regularly, but it would be strange for him to say that, I think.

          2. It wouldn’t be strange at all. Pires is in all the trainings. He know what’s up.

      2. Lord, I do not want to have to watch that again. I’ll take your word for it. 😉 It’s been an interesting conversation, the idea that the players are purposefully moving themselves into positions that are unplayable, rather than they simply aren’t in synch with their teammates. Must be a rather fine line between the two.

          1. You don’t think there might be an element of projecting our own disappointment onto the motivations and movements of people we’ve never even spoken to, let alone met or trained with? Admittedly, you spend an awful lot more time then I do going over this stuff and rewatching and writing about it. I either catch it live (or near live) on the telly or not at all. How do you tell the difference?

          2. On second read through, that might come across a bit Passy-Aggy. Sorry about that. Purely unintended, so let me rephrase: do you guys who watch these things repeatedly (and bless you all for doing so) have any tips for those of us who don’t that will help us recognize when a player’s intentionally making pointless runs vs not being in synch with the passers? What’s the tell? The frequency during a match, perhaps?

  3. No way Wenger gets fired mid season even if we go out of the Europa because then, what’s the point? Also no way we lose all our games. And yet another no way that Wenger announces his departure mid season. Maybe the last home game but not before. He’s not going to make this about himself.

    Privately, who knows what he says to the players. We need something to help with our confidence. I agree with a defense first approach. Go back to basics. Go back to a game at a time, or even a half at a time, and stop feeling sorry for ourselves.

    I don’t think the players hide. Those sort of runs are also symptomatic of low confidence and trying too hard. (Too eager to get forward and make something happen)

  4. The answer is easy. Get a new manager!

    The point about players ‘gaming’ the stats is fascinating. With players being more analysed based on stats it’s only natural that players would start to be more conscious of looking after their stats where possible. But it’s problematic if it intersects an already turgid playing culture.

    1. Anytime anyone says “the answer is easy” about anything that involves complex systems, an immediate wave of nausea washes over me.

      1. You may want to get that looked at. But it is simple: if Arsenal want to move forward they need a new manager. And getting a new manager will be a move forward in itself. If you don’t understand that then you have no clue about the nature of the malaise the club is in.

        1. The nausea is still there. Yes, we need a new manager but nothing about that is easy.

  5. What I found interesting about that player meeting was that there was no conclusion, no fight back, just resignation. To me, that speaks of a weak mentality. But that’s also going off three quotes, so it could be completely wrong.

    Interesting about the players potentially playing to get him fired. And you know what, I disagree with you. I think that’s entirely okay in this circumstance. The man won’t leave of his own accord. These players see their colleagues leave and go to better teams. People have lives, families, etc. and it makes sense they may want to stay, and see more potential for this club but for the old man blocking the way. If I have a manager who is doing a terrible job and making me look bad I could look to leave ,but what I like the job? The perks, the people, the work itself? Do I protect him and leave because he’s my boss? Maybe. I don’t know, you tell me.

    I can’t imagine another year with him in charge, I’ll tell you that.

  6. Agree with the defense-first approach, but we all know it won’t happen. Relatedly, I’ve often wondered why Wenger buys forwards who best express their talents in counterattacking teams (watch Theo’s early highlight reels, or pretty much all of Aubameyang’s and Mkhitaryan’s reels, for example), and then forces them to play in high line formations trying to unlock the doors of a parked bus.

    And it’s not as if Wenger is averse to counterattacking football. The Invincibles did it all the time. As I see it, the problem is that after the Invincibles were disbanded, Wenger saw Fabregas as the future, and decided to build a Barcelona-lite side, and Barcelona are master lock-pickers. That project is largely done and dusted, of course, but one of its outcomes seems to be that we don’t or have forgotten how to play effective counterattacking football.

    Anyway, defense-first. Yes. But then again, our defense is a mess. Cech is hopeless. Mustafi is lost. Koscielny is broken, Kolasinac hasn’t adapted (I’m being generous), Bellerin wants to be anywhere else but Arsenal, and Monreal, currently our best player, is unfortunately entering another injury period.

    As to the manager issue, I’m in agreement, Tim. Wenger’s history will prevent the club from firing him mid-season, and I’m cool with that. And I’ve changed my mind completely about the early announcement. I now absolutely do think the club / Wenger should announce this his last season with the club. Doing so will remove the toxic atmosphere, and enable us to show him our appreciation.

    On a completely different note: When I die, I want Gianluigi Buffon to write my obituary. Did you read his comments about Davide Astori? The dude is a patrician and orator straight out of the Roman Republic.

    1. If you watch the Juventus series on Netflix right now you will come away loving Gianluigi Buffon. A class, class player and a leader.

      And after watching that series I can definitively no way in f’n hell would ANY player or manager ever leave that club for ours. So scratch Allegri.

        1. Yes, indeed it was his eloquence that occasioned the final paragraph in my initial comment!

      1. Watching that I also think Szczesny is in for BIG trouble. He’s never going to be as good as Buffon on the pitch and even if he is, he’ll never be as good as Buffon off the pitch. He’s, in a way, a lot like Arsenal’s next manager: always going to come up short compared to the person he just replaced.

        1. Have similar thoughts about Szczesny. Was thinking the other day of what a curse it will be to fill Buffon’s shoes when the latter retires. The very epitome of the expression, “hard act to follow.”

          Don’t agree with the manager analogy, though. In terms of history, sure. No one’s ever going to win the same number of trophies at Arsenal that Wenger did. But in terms of recent history, in a way Wenger overstaying his welcome (his plan all along???!!!) has made it so much easier for his successor. The opposite of Moyes following SAF (which is the analogy that Szczesny / Buffon fits).

          1. Absolutely, imagine the amount of goodwill and support the new guy will command. That is, if he isn’t Brenda Rodgers.

  7. I disagree.
    I don’t believe Arsenal players are actively trying to get Wenger fired but rather are exhibiting signs of confusion, lack of belief, clear strategy and purpose.

    The players /manager meeting to discuss the defense first save the season strategy ,so long Wenger agrees to leave, ain’t happening either.
    No leadership in the ranks and Wenger is too detached from reality to walk away on his terms.

    In his bizzaro world he still thinks he’s the best man for the job, just as he believes Guardiola is his equal and only City’s elite players are the 30 points difference in the tables.

    But agree, firing him now is pointless unless the replacement manager is available immediately.

  8. I see a team without a sense of common mission or identity. We at least used to feel obligated, that it was our club’s mission, to play and win with beautiful technical football, but that evaporated. That for me is the saddest part. Not even enjoyable to watch any longer.

    I’d like Wenger fired after we lose on Thursday. He won’t go on his own. Waiting until the end of the season reduces the time for a new manager to work in a compressed off-season (World Cup usually puts a big hold on things) and let him decide if he wants Welbeck and Ramsey re-signed, squad needs etc.

    Fire Wenger, install an interim manager (Pires or Lehman are right there, neither would want the permanent job) and then get the new manager in place for end of the season.

    I know this won’t happen though, he’ll be allowed to ride it out to the end of the season, everyone will be distracted by rumors of new manager prospects and then there’ll be an ugly parting or worse yet, Kroenke Sr. is convinced yet again to give Wenger another go.

    1. Not one for sentiment, eh Jack?! Lol.

      But yes, you make a good point about the transition.

      And I agree with your certainty about the loss on Thursday. My only hope is that we don’t get embarrassed, because I fear an absolute spanking is on the cards.

      1. I am not sentimental because for me, Wenger is not a sympathetic character. I turned on Wenger two years ago. Before that I was a very ardent supporter.

        I started supporting the club because my favorite player, Dennis Bergkamp joined the club about the same time that TSN started showing regular EPL games up here in Canada (ah, good old Soccer Saturday with Graham Leggett). So I’ve only really known an Arsenal managed by Wenger. I’m not happy how this has turned out – who could be? But I find it hard to be sympathetic about someone who has basically authored his own demise with pride and stubbornness and then has the temerity to speak to us, the fans, like we’re some obtuse group of ingrates.

        1. Ah, Graham Leggatt. As a fellow Canadian, have to say that from the 1980s to early 2000s, my experience of watching soccer on TV was shaped by the voices of Leggatt, Dick Howard (always seemed a bit dazed), Bob Lenarduzzi (nope), Bobby McMahon (ok), Craig Forrest (nope), even Brian Williams (if you don’t love Brian Williams, you are dead inside), and the unforgettable Vic Rauters, who always seemed like an interloper from a golf channel.

          1. Your point is taken, but Arsenal Fan TV is (I hope) not representative of the vast majority of unhappy fans, like myself or others, that I see on blogs expressing their dissatisfaction more… calmly.

            I would not recommend anyone watch Arsenal Fan TV, stay off Twitter and avoid YouTube comments. It makes for a healthier pyche.

          2. You might be happy to know I live by your advice already: I’m on twitter but I the only arsenal people I follow are arseblog and tim stillman because they’re the only ones I’ve found capable of a consistently sober opinion that does stink of cynical bias. I don’t watch AFTV and never have! I found the video after typing “Arsenal obtuse ingrates” into my search bar. It took me less than a minute to find something perfectly illustrative of that vocal minority out there getting lots of shine despite not representing the views of the whole, so I’m just saying, if someone wanted to paint fans as obtuse ingrates they don’t have to search far and wide. In fact, it’s far easy to find obtuse ingrates because they are being enshrined into our consciousness due to sheer entertainment value which inflates their actual influence. This is a global phenomenon not unique to arsenal but it’s particularly pronounced here.

          3. I’m glad you point out that it’s part of a larger societal trend, not just Arsenal. “Recreational outrage” as Joe Rogan puts it. People who live in their mother’s basement and can barely make their bed in the morning, but know how to fix the world and run a soccer club and are ANGRY about it.

            I meant Twitter in general btw, not just Arsenal related. It’s a sewer. The very worst type of echo chamber where @FluffyPeanuts87 feels bold enough to tweet insults to people objectively 10x more accomplished in life.

    2. Double thumbs up. Apologies if you’ve heard this before, but Arsenal are now closer in points to the bottom of the table than the top. The worst case scenario has already arrived, even if Tim’s prediction of losing out does come to fruition it doesn’t change the objective failure of this season.

      I disagree with those saying that you can’t blame Wenger for not “firing himself”. Ferguson had the awareness to walk away on a high note when he knew he had enough, Wenger was presented that same opportunity last year but chose the opposite. Long-tenored managers of all sports are almost never fired, even if they are it is dressed up as a “mutual decision”. Wouldn’t be surprised if someone in the FO brought up the mutual departure possibility and Wenger refused it.

  9. It’s a malaise when personnel doesn’t matter and the same results keeps happening. In the current situation we are at a point when there is no clear first team. This is a major issue when it comes to defence.
    Would love to see an article on the rotation in that area. Have we had a spell of games with the same back 4 or back 3…???Surprisingly we are not very far of from Chelsea, Spurs or United interms of attacking intent.. but 1-0 to the Arsenal has become a very distant dream. No way we are holding opposition by a one goal lead.
    Defence first approach is caving in ..atleast in the minds of players. I also think Kolasinac should be let off.. which other team bar city have a better second choice LB?
    The other stark difference I see is the rush in passing. The players are absolutely scared of moving with the ball or build it up. They tend to throw it at each other like it’s a hot potato and invariably one of them spills it all over the floor. There used to be times when Arsenal would tire out the strikers passing sideways.. now it’s done so fast that it’s easy to press from between.
    Also…the biggest loss to Arsenal with Alexis is a threat from set piece.

    1. Yeah, that 5-1 drubbing of Everton (who needs Alexis??!!!) must be on record as the falsest of false dawns in Falseland.

  10. This is exactly what I’ve been thinking for the last couple of weeks: announce retirement now, get everyone rally behind you for one last time, go out with dignity. Doesn’t seem very likely though, does it? He would’ve done it last year if his mind worked along the obvious.

  11. I think the players have reached ‘rock bottom’ already now. They know they’re being slated, they’ve heard the bitterness of the fans, the pundits and press have told them they’re culpable along with AW. So I think it’ll be Victoria concordia crescit by default: long overdue, they’ll realise they need to take some responsability themselves, So I’m doubling down and going for a creditable draw or win in Italy.
    And while I love the idea of AW signalling his own end and going with head held high, sadly I don’t think he’ll quit early but instead suffer further ignominy before the end of the season and then have to be encouraged to leave.

  12. It’s a nice thought: not wanting to fire Wenger and just let him leave on his own but it’s not going to happen. He isn’t going to step down. Not even if we lose all of our remaining games. I’m sure you have seen his post-match interviews. He still believes he is the best man to turn things around. I don’t think anything will change that. How many managers have you seen actually stepping down in the premier league era because they didn’t think they were the best person for the job? Managers don’t step down – least of all someone as closely tied to the club as Wenger. If you want to get rid of a manager, you have to fire him. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles. However, it doesn’t have to be ugly and acrimonious. The club can control the way it is handled. They can say it was mutually agreed (even if we all know it will never be). They can say Wenger will be given the highest honor possible at the end of the season. Maybe they will even tell him we are going have him immortalized in a statue in front of the Emirates. Point is – if the club is sharp and proactive, it can be done in a classy way that keeps Wenger’s honor intact. Personally, I think that’s the right move. Once you know someone’s not the right person for the job, there is no point in prolonging the pain. If the players want him out, the fans want him out, the board wants him out – he should be out asap. We would be doing him a favor by getting it done right now if we actually believe that we will lose most of our remaining games. Spare him the ignominy of those defeats and more vitriol from the fans, press or just about anybody putting in their 2 cents on the situation. You know the board is going to hide behind him and let him take all the flack as they have done for years. I think Wenger deserves better than that.

    1. AW is duplicitous in that I’m-not-sure-if-it’s-arrogance-or-artifice kind of way. He spoke about how damaging to team morale the uncertainty surrounding his contract was, and also pointed to Alexis’ and Özil’s contract dealings as problematic; how do we know his recent statements about being the right man for the job aren’t a ruse to keep the same thing from happening? I could see him as already having decided to step down in May, but believing an earlier announcement, or at least an announcement during such a poor run of form as being more damaging than benificial. In his own misguided way, he may believe he’s protecting the players.

  13. Arsenal have been responsible for quite a few managers losing their jobs. And a few times we’ve been a new opposition manager’s first game where we were favourites but they managed to pull off a result.

    Deciding he might as well stay because we can’t get anyone else to cover the period from now til the end of the season is itself a damning indictment on Wenger. Ancelotti who has 3 European titles was out of a job because Bayern decided that’s what their players needed to refocus. Yet we’re here molly-coddling this 70-year old man.

    The players clearly don’t want him. They need a new voice, new rules, new motivation. And they needed it yesterday. These guys as a collective are done with him.

    If we had taken the hard decision after the Bayern games last season and fired him, with a capable replacement we might have come of out last years slump sooner and Liverpool wouldn’t have beaten us to 4th by a solitary point.

    Wenger repeatedly tried to pass of those disastrous results from a year ago as merely down to “contractual uncertainty”. Clearly that’s delusional because a year later here we are again.

    Sack him tomorrow and let Per and Mad Jens take over. Just get him out.

  14. There is an idea floating around in the Arsenalsphere that Wenger should/will step down volontarily before the end of his contract. That is not going to happen.

    Not because he’s some egomaniac who thinks he’s the best manager in the game, but because his job is to manage the team. It’s what he’s paid to do, he’s signed the contract. To walk out before it expires is unprofessional.

    Wengers employers must make the decision to replace him. That’s how it works at any workplace. If someone works at your company and repeatedly makes mistakes, they don’t resign. They try to avoid the mistakes and perform better. It’s the job of management to fire, promote or demote their employees.

    I don’t see why we should think any different of Wenger’s situation. It’s his job to manage the football team. He will continue to do so until the end of his deal. If the club don’t want him to do so, they’ll have to fire him.

    That is also why it’s so frustrating that the club is dead silent on the role of the manager next season. They make no effort to defend him when under pressure, and leak a list of potential replacements to the press when he loses an important game.

    It’s really poor leadership from the board and the owner. What happens when our next manager hits a rough spot? Will they hide, pretend as if it’s not their fault and let that person take all the heat?

    It’s all very worrying, because the board and the owner are much harder to replace than the manager.

    1. I agree – Wenger should not quit. However announcing that it is your intention to leave at the end of the season should not be considered quitting by him or anyone else. And unfortunately I think that’s how Wenger views it; he’s been signed for a two year deal, stepping away after just one year is quitting. So the club can let him off by telling him first in private that he will not be returning next year. If he’s good with that you can choose to either announce it publicly or just to the team. If he’s not good with that you fire him. Either way you’ve relieved him of betraying his contract.

      1. It will require some serious smooth talk to convince Wenger to publicly admit he’s not up to the job anymore, which is what a resignation would be. Especially since the club has spent the better part of the season publicly undermining him.

        This is sad, since I agree the best thing would be for the club and the manager to announce that they will part ways in the summer. That way the fans could unite and make a last push for the Europa League, give Wenger a proper farewell and actually support the football team, rather than speculating about managerial changes.

        Unfortunately, nothing so far has indicated the club leadership has the ability to make this happen. If they had been good at running a football club, they would have done what they’re doing this season a year or two ago and ensured that Wenger got the farewell he deserves.

        Instead, we’ll end up with dispair in the fan base, an ungrateful farewell of our most decorated manager and another season without Champions League football.

        1. Guys, Arsene Wenger doesn’t want a parade or a send-off or he’d have left after the FA Cup final win. He literally hid from the cameras at Wembley and let the players take the accolades.

          Yet somehow we’ve institutionalised this bogus idea that you don’t sack a manager mid-season – you must allow him to leave with dignity. Yet we’re also desperate to get back into a brutal competition with sharks like Barca, PSG and now Man City swimming in it. If our owner and our boardroom can’t make the obvious decision, they don’t deserve Champions League football. We should just stay in the shallow end and play some more Thursday night games next season.

          Since Leicester’s title win, each of our top 6 rivals has rebuilt under a new head coach apart from Sp*rs, who were at the early stage of the Poch era. Today each of these clubs has left us in the dust and we’re planning a party for Wenger while our expensively-assembled squad wastes 2 of their prime years trying to work out how to coach themselves.

          I couldn’t care less about some fancy farewell tour for Wenger. Neither does he. It would be an insult to his competitive instincts.

          1. The obvious decision you refer to will have no bearing on whether we play in the Champions League next season, so I imagine they’ll choose the dignity option. Also, I don’t think we as fans have institutionalized the idea that you can’t sack a manager mid-season. I think the club has done it, and so has Wenger.

            We are in a completely unique situation compared to other clubs in that, unlike very other club in Europe, we’ve stuck with our manager through good times and (relatively) bad for over twenty years. Yes, in today’s logic it seems obvious that the club should sack him now, but we are a club that is on the verge of entering modern football management, not one that is in it.

            Small steps and all that, but I’m hopeful the club will do the right thing in the summer, and we’ll finally be rid of the autocratic management model that is holding this club back.

            I’m sympathetic to Jack’s and your view that the club should sack him now, but ultimately a) I don’t think the club will do it, so it’s wishful thinking, and b) I do retain sympathy for Wenger, in part because his tenure at the club has been extended because of the laziness or stupidity of his superiors, who should have known better.

          2. If you look at the top clubs in Europe, most of them don’t often sack managers in the middle of the seasons. Because they’re well run, they have plans of succession and switch managers without much fuzz during summers. This club haven’t managed that, and that is what I’m critizing.

            I’m not opposed to sacking him, not even mid-season. I want the people responsible for his appointment to do something to resolve the situation. If the decision is to between sacking Wenger now or not doing anything, they should sack him.

            The complete lack of action in this situation, coupled with the public undermining of Wenger’s position, indicates a lack of leadership. Which is worrying, since they’re a lot more difficult to change.

            When I say a proper farewell, I’m not thinking farewell tours and stuff (I doubt the fans would appreciate that). I just think that it would be nice if we could not boo him during his last home games. It would also ease transition and help the team perform if the fans and players knew what was coming.

        2. So the fans can’t unite for the club to try and win a trophy, and this is all on the club? Not buying that.

          Also, the ‘fans’ aren’t going to let go of their celebrity status (Tim Payton, Le Grove, and the Aftv guys) and the income it brings them once Wenger’s gone. They’re still going to be cribbing, probably about Kroenke, and soon enough, any new manager. You think they had legitimate concerns over a decade ago? They’ve carved out a little niche for themselves where they attack the very thing they claim to love, and that isn’t going to stop.

          1. It’s not the clubs fault, but it’s a major problem and they are doing nothing to resolve it. Wenger can’t and shouldn’t be expected to solve it, since it’s not his decision to make.

            There will always be people who complain for the sake of it (haters gonna hate, etc), but right now the fans are singing “We want Wenger out” during games. Meanwhile, the club pretends as if they have no responsibility at all.

          2. Daniel Ahlsén

            Oh that. Yes, I agree with that. It’s definitely not Arsene’s call to make (and I think he’s said as much many times) I’ve said before that I don’t think the board are keen to sack him until they know they are in good shape for the future, and the change can be done with respect. But that their hand may be forced with the poor results. However, sacking him mid season just won’t happen.

    2. Daniel, I don’t think there will ever be another situation at Arsenal or any other football club quite like the one we’re facing. I don’t share your concern of this repeating after Wenger departs; how can it? It’s been 20+ years in the making, an iconic figure who has slowly transitioned from talisman to albatross and so slow has the change been that it’s hard to believe it has been so complete. I don’t believe that Wenger is a worse manager now than he was all those years ago, but the world of football has moved past him to a bewildering degree.

      I said this on the other thread but will say it again: Wenger has no exit plan. He is terrified that his life will be without meaning without Arsenal. It will be like losing a lifelong spouse for him. He needs “bereavement counseling,” in the form of many things that may distract him from the emptiness that is likely to consume him without the preparation for the next game, perhaps a puppy and/or a broadcasting job.

      1. The situation is unique, but the management is still poor. I’m not concerned about us having a repeat of the Wenger situation. I’m afraid that when we find ourselves in some other problem, they will act as they do now: too little, too late and disrespectfully.

        We have no idea if Wenger is terrified or not. We’re not mind readers. But whether he can handle it or not is beside the point. I don’t think it’s Wenger’s responsibility to make the decision to step down, and that he’s unfairly being held accountable for decisions that aren’t his to make.

        1. I do think I understood your point, just making a counter-argument. You don’t have to agree with me.

          We do know he’s terrified because he’s said so to the media on many occasions…

    3. I think much of the frustration about him seeing out his contract comes not from the common-sense place that you insightfully explained, but previous comments that he would retire if he ever became the wrong man for the job. I’m trying to find these, but while searching, I’m saddened by search results calling for AW to step down from 2016 on. Sure, it feels different not this time, but it did after Bayern, and our collapse in 2016. You think things can’t get worse, but we keep finding new bottoms. Is AW our Albatross, and will ever be free of him?

  15. Def going to watch arsenal play milan. Most of tjese players will be arsenal plauers next season. They all want to play champs league, the europa league is their last chance. It could be like how the chelsea players basically managed themselves to the champions league.

    Will be interesting to see how thursday goes. And if it goes well, what they say post match.

    1. It won’t go well. No way we’re leaving Milan with anything other than a loss. The main reason I’m pessimistic is that Milan are a tenacious pressing team under Gattuso, and we have shown in recent months that we simply cannot cope with teams that play this way, even when they are from the Swedish leagues!

      Plus, Danny Welbeck. I mean, even if our defense somehow, miraculously doesn’t gift Milan goals, how are we going to actually score goals, when the prominent attribute of your front man is to bonk the ball awkwardly to the corner flag before falling over? Would love, love, love for it to suddenly click with Welbeck, but he’s not a football striker.

      1. Spot on. No chance in Milan. We will concede at least 2-3 goals, and we have no bite in attack with Auba, let alone without him.

      2. Arsenal will lose is the most likely outcome. The way they lose all the important games. The otjer team just let them attack, let them have the ball, and Arsenal facilitate their own demise from there. Pretty simple formula that Ferguson cottoned on to towards the end of his reign when his teams were weaker.

  16. I agree with you completely both about Wenger having to leave at the end of the season and not be hung dry by the players as well as the management.

    I think this is way Wenger keeps talking about the big clubs he turned down during the financial constraint years, that he took the bullets for the management when they needed help. It was a miracle that he kept us in the top-4 with a team that contained Denilson, Song, Adebayor, etc!

    Even now he needed a midfielder to connect the defence with the attack, a Carzola replacement but didn’t get one through the transfer market. If that had been addressed he could have continued playing Wengerball (read weak defence and intricate offence).

  17. Wenger is not getting fired yet. He built the Emirates and is the soul of the club. Josh might be willing to fire him mid season, but I doubt Stan will. My guess is that Stan promised Arsene a true chance and this year is it. Barring a sudden turn around in which we win Europa or dominate the rest of our prem games and finish top four, Arsene will be gone at the end of the season.

  18. I predict AW goes on 3/17, the day after we are eliminated from EL. My hunch is that slipping below 6th and losing EL qualification would be a financial hit Kroenke is unwilling to take, and it will be clear – even to him – that action needs to be taken to try to fend off that disaster. Stan the Man has recent precedent for firing coaches before the end of a season, albeit in American football. He fired Jeff Fisher from the NFL’s LA Rams after a blowout loss in 2016 , with only 3 games remaining in the season. (The Rams lost all 3, btw). Fisher, like Wenger, was a veteran coach (but nowhere near as distinguished as AW). Like Wenger, Fisher had signed a contract extension earlier that year. Not saying this is predictive, but it gives me hope. And – the Rams were hugely improved this year, with largely the same players, and a young dynamic coach.

  19. I agree with Andrew in that it’s not up to Arsene to decide his future, it’s up to the board and the owners to take a stand and inform their employee that they’re bringing in a new manager next year whether he likes it or not.

    Unfortunately it looks like they’re content to hide in the background and hang the manager out to dry in an attempt to keep the smell of failure off themselves.

    It’s pathetic.

  20. People, people, people:
    I saw a version of this a couple years ago and unfortunately, it has all come to pass.
    A cursory examination of KSE and it’s operating model should leave no doubt that this club could be on the cusp of a long period of decline IF KSE continues profitable turnover regardless of results on the pitch.

    If KSE lose money and financial leverage because of their Arsenal investment then things may eventually change for the better. Until then, Arsenal is done as an elite name in football.

    As I commented a while back , the transformation is now complete. We are a typical Kroenke franchise now and all that such entails.

    1. Not sure I agree it’s that simple. KSE moved the Rams to L.A. and hired one of the best new coaches in the league. I do think they act when the club’s financials start to dip and that’s what’s happening with Arsenal right now, missing out on CL in consecutive seasons and needing to negotiate big sponsorship deals. They are patient, but they act when they must.

      1. “I do think they act when…”.
        That’s all I’m saying doc. The reality is that there may be a world of hurt until “when” finally does happen, if it ever does.

        But right now it’s beginning to feel like “Paradise by the Dashboard Light” for a poor Gooner Lifer like me.

        1. I hear ya, but I do think KSE recognizes this is unsustainable. This is what Josh Kroenke said recently:

          “You got to have open and honest dialogue about the reality that we are on because if we are sugar coating anything about ourselves, about our team, about our direction, we’re only kidding ourselves and we’re only going to be worse off for it in the long run.”

    2. We knew when they took over that KSE weren’t going to bring in outside spending. Without that, we’re always going to be underdogs against City, ManU and Chelsea. No matter what.

      The ways they can make a difference is not limited to the manager, though he may be the most visible step. The club has been upgrading all areas from the academy upwards, and bringing in new personnel in various departments. By all accounts, some very good ones. Replacing Wenger was always going to be the last step in a significant transition process.

      I don’t get the hate towards KSE. They have been good for Denver in the NBA. Before they fired the coach of the LA Rams, they had traded up for the no.1 draft pick, a young QB from California, and they already had a very good young running back. They made a push. I reckon being in a big market now, they’ll end up winning it all at some point. No idea about NHL and the MLS so whatever.

      But at Arsenal, I see no reason to dislike KSE. We’re here because a decade of us being outspent by others finally caught up with us. That this happened just after we started to spend again is not just ironic, it may even be the cause of the loss of our magic, our identity. We’ll be back because we’re a big club with big resources. Just not at City’s level.

  21. Not to be contrary Tim, but the empiricist in me wants to see these false runs that Auclair is mentioning. More specifically, my hypothesis is that these crappy runs are being made in every Arsenal game because Arsenal’s forwards don’t know where they need to be at any given time, it’s just that we are now paying attention to these crappy runs and attributing them to the internal rot. This kind of thing sends my confirmation bias radar into screaming overdrive. Of course, it could all be true, but I’d like to see exactly what they are talking about.

    The Breakdown is worth watching on the Brighton game. As ever, Adrian Clarke nails it when he says we played into their hands by trying to cram everything inside and they were ready for it. By contrast, I watched City play Chelsea and all their combinations and all their high risk passes were in or towards wide areas, never in their own half or centrally. They don’t make many mistakes because they have excellent technicians, but even when they did, they used the sideline to win the ball back immediately time and time again. Arsenal don’t do this. We try to thread the needle again and again through the middle and no matter how good the technique is, it will fail 99% of the time because the opponent knows it’s coming. Then, the interception immediately becomes an opportunity at the other end, because our midfielders and defenders (except for Bellerin) don’t have the speed to compensate.

    Last thought: many people have pointed out that we don’t play on the counter anymore. Well, that’s because we don’t lead games anymore. City are wonderful on the break, but the fact that they almost always score first unlocks that for them. They also consistently face a low block, but they do a better job of pulling defenders out of position and making direct diagonal passes to the flanks which result in dangerous cutbacks or set up Sane with a 1v1 he can exploit. I don’t think the importance of Sane can be over-emphasized. Arsenal doesn’t have a player like him, someone who is pure speed and can stretch and pull defenders with or without the ball at his feet. But really, it’s David Silva that makes it all work, the MVP of the PL this season by a mile for me.

    1. I’m a also skeptical of the claim about players intentionally making poor runs.

      Re:counters
      For a team like City, who can beat you many different ways, it may be true that scoring first leads to counter attacking opportunities. It’s not necessary to score first, however. If Arsenal could set up to defend first and then spring a counter quickly, we might be very good at it.

      1. I don’t see Arsenal adopting that kind of mentality except in big games against the likes of Barcelona, but we should have the ability to play that way if necessary. We don’t right now and it’s killing us.

        Go out and get Thiago Alcantara this summer, bring in a young, hungry manager, and this team will be reborn.

  22. Silva MVP by mile? Ahead of Kevin and Mo by mile? You’re seeing things few people see, Doc. Which makes you very, very perceptive or not very well informed or a bit provocative. Certainly a contrarian, as you announced!
    Coming back to the issue at hand, I wanted to point out, like the doc actually, that one has to sympathize with AW’s ordeal. He is an active semi-God, managing every day his little army of superhumans, he experiences an incredible rush twice a week when entering a full stadium, he is recognized, idolized, loved, liked, surrounded by admirers and sycophants, he is at the centre of everything. He has media attention. His words are analyzed like those of a Fed president. He thinks he knows best because he has known best for so long. He embodies the club he loves more than anything else. And he has to abandon all this willingly, to become an unknown, a spectator, a seventy year old gentleman, lonelier than ever, with no other horizon than old age and death ultimately. This might sound overly dramatic but I’m sure it is the way he subconsciously experiences his perceived future. People die of boredom when leaving a small technocratic position that filled their life. Imagine what he is going through.
    Which is why someone has to decide for him. And soon.

    1. Serge,

      Really appreciate your take on this near-existential crisis we see Wenger going through in such a public way. Wanted him gone a long time ago now (partly because I’d like to see him prove himself again at a different club and extend his legacy), but I think it’s very cool that his philosophical way of looking at the world has somehow seeped into us as fans. I saw my old man go very quickly from retirement to serious illness so that part especially resonates with me.

      Very interesting way to look at this situation.

    2. Hi Serge, welcome to 7am, I don’t think I’ve seen you post here before. I did enjoy your turn of phrase on Wenger there.

      Yes, it’s true, I am not one for boring opinions but I don’t regret a thing, others can disagree and that’s OK. Hope you don’t take it personally, I am not here to wind anyone up (though I confess I used to needle people, I am reformed (I think)!). Salah is a worthy candidate but for me it has to be a City player and I cannot see one more instrumental than Silva. I’m a big enthusiast of players who make the game look easy and make the players around them better, and Silva does those things arguably better than anyone. Maybe his impact is magnified in my mind because of Arsenal’s lack of a player just like him who knits the entire side together. He has end product too, and his touch is sublime. I think he’s the heartbeat of that team, and that team is sweeping all before them, so he is my MVP.

      1. I rarely post, that’s a fact! and your nice answer encourages me to post more!
        It’s the “by a mile” that made me wonder, not the choice of Silva. Silva is indeed a serious candidate and he has been brilliant for years while KDB has really blossomed this year. My point was that KDB’s statistics are so impressive (goals and assists) and his skillset so remarkable and complete (it includes this ability to make things look easy and to make other shine, by the way) that I would have thought that whoever was the MVP it should have been a close contest (Silva MVP by a centimeter!).
        I’m a Belgian and possibly a little biased…

  23. Shard, sorry bro, can’t follow the logic here.

    “Also, the ‘fans’ aren’t going to let go of their celebrity status (Tim Payton, Le Grove, and the Aftv guys) and the income it brings them once Wenger’s gone.”

    Fans you don’t approve of are responsible for the mess we’re in, because why?

    Need to “let go of their celebrity status” and give up their income such as it is, because why?

    That’s a truly bizarre piece of logic. Mr DT and Robbie aren’t responsible for Arsenal’s slump, any more that you are responsible for its past success.

    1. Maybe the reason you so often can’t understand the logic of what I say is because you presume I mean something I don’t.

      1. I suspect that you yourself don’t quite know what you’re saying there 🙂

        1. Maybe if I added a few bluds and fams you’d understand me better and indeed fight my corner at every perceived slight.

          1. Ah. I see. Jamaican patois snobbery.

            Maybe you should. Anything would improve your argument.

  24. I think that Arsene, as he did last year, will contrive to arrest the slump, we’ll have a meaningless mini-run (let’s call it our MMR), and and he’ll buy himself time. The operative word there is “himself.” What he did for the club is undeniable (and it’s why, like Tim and others, I don’t want to see him fired), but it’s sad to watch him spend the currency of ingratitude, and “see what I did for you X years ago”, as his CURRENT abilities are not good enough to run on. He’s like the washed up old boxer, boasting about the number of people he beat in his prime. A long time ago. It didn’t have to be like this.

    Wenger has made us masters at the late, meaningless run, and honestly, I’ll take that. This slump is soul-destroying. Even my friends who support other clubs and dislike Arsenal seem genuinely worried about our direction. That said, this slump is so bad and spirit in the camp so poisonous, that even our annual MMR may be beyond us. We’ll see.

    Europa is a door that’s still open, and yes, I’m going heart over head for the Milan tie. Yeah yeah, egg on face on all that, and rational me says we’ll get easily beaten. But, life and hope. United were where we are in the table last year, and look at them now. The players, the staff and the manager has to throw the kitchen sink at Europa. It’s far more than about getting back into the champions league… it’s our SOS. Unfortunately, it’d make Arsene less likely to do what everyone else knows needs to be done.

  25. Ok claude.

    What do you not get.

    Someone said that the fans could unite for a Europa campaign if AW announced his retirement and that the club isn’t taking action.

    I subsequently understood and agreed with what he meant by the club taking action, but I disagree that the fans are going to unite regardless of Wenger’s future, because for some it is more about the spotlight than any meaningful cause, and as such they will always find something else to rail against, while claiming to do it for their love of Arsenal.

    I don’t know where you got that I was blaming them for our slump from that.

    1. The problem is conflating fans with Tim Payton, AFTV and Le Grove. They don’t represent what is a massive, massive fanbase. It’s an absurd generalisation.

      Does anyone know what Payton looks like? He heads up the AST and they’ve at least been pushing for more football men to appointed to the board. They do that via democratic processes and direct communication with the club. That’s a good thing.

      No-one cares about Le Grove. As for AFTV, I’m very sceptical of anyone who thinks lampooning the way some Londoners talk marks them out as more intelligent. One of those guys is such a diehard Gooner he was included in the club’s promo campaign for a new kit. Who are you to question their love for their club or suggest that these 3 entities are the main obstacle to the fans ‘uniting’?

      The main obstacle is performances. Win, lose or draw, the team can start winning over fans by playing hard for 93 minutes. But because they’re done with this manager, it’s not gonna happen.

      1. Did I say they represent the fanbase? I specifically said ‘fans’ because I can differentiate between them as individual fans and their interests as the groups that they have formed.

        I was actually lampooning claude and his desire to protect the honour of the Aftv dudes more than I was lampooning a channel that I only come across when their clips get circulated around, usually as examples of comedy, outright stupidity, or just plain showmanship rather than as a serious analysis or a representative ‘voice of the fans’. Heaven forbid someone mock them!

        By the way, this is not an argument around what AST does, or Aftv do. They can do whatever they want. I merely pointed at them as examples among the fans who have vested interests in the drama around Arsenal and in my experience, such behaviour usually leads to a habit of looking for an ‘enemy’ and creating one where none can be found. ANd SOoooooo. I challenged the notion that Wenger announcing he is leaving would lead to fans being united.

        Oh btw, AST, Le Grove and now Aftv all got/get media coverage disproportionate to their membership as being the voice of the fans. I wonder why.

    2. Better argument, Shard, but it’s not what you said originally.

      I don’t like fans elevating themselves over others fans they consider inferior, because of speech pattern or vociferousness, or financial motive or whatnot. Neither of us is a superior breed of fan.

      Those same guys you slate are going to be at the Emirates and the San Siro cheering on the team, and kicking every ball. And yeah, filming it for YouTube. But so what? It’s a game of passions and they ‘bloodclaat” and ‘bumboclaat’ to olympic standards. So what? The notion that they won’t answer a call for unity (however that is supposed to be made manifest) is supported by what, exactly? Apart from your disdain?

      I’d say that going to the game to support the team is a pretty good demonstration of that.

      1. It has nothing to do with their speech patterns. It’s about what they do. It’s like I’m not allowed to say anything about them because they have an invincible shield of match tickets. Whatever. You obviously think they are allowed an opinion on Arsenal but nobody else is allowed an opinion on them. (And you obviously think they are superior to other fans such as myself because they carry tickets, so talk about hypocrisy there)

        My view is that there won’t be a united fanbase (I said why I think this) and this was in response to a comment saying that if Wenger announced his retirement the fans would be united behind him the remainder of the season. (You don’t seem to question what this is based on)

        Also, you need to stop telling me what I said or meant to say. The person I replied to understood what I said as evidenced by his response. You meanwhile have to pick an argument based on what you want to think I said.

        1. You mocked their speech, Shard.

          And you questioned whether they can unite behind the rest of the fan base. Based on what? You can’t say. You can’t say, because you think that you can simply, baldly state they they are less of a fan than you, and fans you approve of.

          Well, I’m calling you out on that, and it has nothing to do with the fact that you live in India.

          What Kaius said too, btw.

          1. I definitely think I am a better fan than Aftv because I don’t think the Aftv are fans. The guys who speak there are fans. But they are not there in their capacity as Arsenal fans, rather in the capacity of social media personalities. It’s a distinction you simply don’t seem to get. Following Arsenal and going to the stadium, and speaking about Arsenal on camera (while selling tees and gaining social media followers) are two separate activities.

          2. And what do you mean I can’t say. I can and did say. If you really don’t want to read what I said, in favour of imagining what I said that’s on you, not me.

          3. Takes rope offered; duly hangs self. You enjoy the rest of your day, Mr Superior Gooner.

          4. Amazing how you can take their claims at face value and nothing beyond, but anyone questioning their motivation has their motivations questioned instead. Again with accusations that are actually true of some on that very platform thinking they are superior to other fans.

            Why do you twist yourself in knots over every mention of Aftv?

        2. And look, it’s not that you’re “not allowed to say” X or Y.

          You can make as many bad arguments as you like. But the commentariat here is a thoughtful and analytical bunch of people, and your bad arguments will get frisked. Sometimes robustly.

          Deal with that.

          1. All I can say is: don’t mock people’s speech and then say “it’s not about their speech patterns” and then try to play the victim. With that kind of logic you’ re not in a position to look down on anybody, least of all AFtv.

        3. This whole spat could be quashed qualifiers were deployed. Instead of “fans could unite,” “the fan base could be more united behind Wenger.” With such a huge following there will always be unhappy supporters, and always perverse incentives that lead some supporters to question the authenticity and motives of others. Claude is right, it’s not our place to judge whether someone is “enough” of a supporter. You’re right too, Shard, in that supporters that profit from negative results can express themselves, but are not protected from criticism.

          1. Except the guy who said ‘fans can unite’ and I reached agreement/understanding pretty quickly.

            I also agree that no one gets to judge who is enough of a supporter. In that claude and I are not in disagreement. He just thinks I believe that because he can’t see past Aftv’s match tickets. I was trying to disabuse him of that notion but to no avail, since he just ignores dis and reads it as abuse.

            Don’t worry, the spat is over. I appreciate the spirit of the message.

  26. We all have our excuses for being wrong….then there is hindsight and the most beautiful wife at home….

  27. By god, I’m looking forward to the day those faultlines of “AKBs” vs “WOB” are gone. I’m wndering what kind of identity crisis Arsenal fandom will go through.

    1. This was my main reason for wanting Wenger extending his contract last season.
      I thought once he has failed to make the CL two seasons running( which I thought he would) ,this would serve as a sort of unification tool for the gooner fandom, that the man is done and a change is needed.

      While Wenger has failed beyond my wildest expectations, judging from the few pro Wenger sites I sometimes visit for a different view , not a single poster who supported him last season has turned.
      I realize it’s a small sample size but still.
      Either they hide their true feelings well, or nothing short of relegation will do it for them.

      1. Pro-Wenger, meaning there are entire websites of people who think it’s a good idea that he comes back to manage this team next year? I find that hard to believe. I actually think the WOB vs. AKB thing kind of disappeared but maybe it’s me and the fact that I don’t get out much.

        1. Yes, there are sites who’s proprietors operate under the assumption Arsene Wenger is still the best man for the job.

          Furthermore, according to one of them no new manager would even want the job because the enviroment around the club is so toxic and the fans are so rotten, that the job is simply not attractive enough to take on.

          1. Yeah I’d hate to come in and look like an instant hero because everyone is so relieved by the simple fact that I’m not the guy I just replaced.

        2. Yes, the general opinion is he has to go now, but the faultlines along with the bitterness and accusations still echo through discussions, I think.

  28. Gosh so much wasted effort over a simple enough statement the original recipient understood and responded accordingly to.

    Claude, you have now repeatedly done this. Take a statement I make and misrepresent it. Ok, you misunderstood, fair enough. I will then write more of a response to try and clarify what I meant. But instead of making an effort to understand, you will go through it with a fine toothed comb and subject it to the standards of an academic thesis with the sole intent to look for inconsistencies or something to discredit me with, rather than gather what is meant. All this while telling me I have no idea what I’m saying and accusing me of changing my argument. Do you realise how insulting that is?

    It’s a Richard move Claude, and the thing is I actually like you and your views at times. I don’t see yourself as my ‘ideological opponent’, nor view this as a contest. I accord you the courtesy of believing you are genuine in your intent and in what you say. I ask you do the same.

    1. I ROFTLOL’d that’s pure class right there, makes me proud to be one of us

    2. I would have given the Oscar to the last guy instead of Troopz. He is clearly passionate about his craft and to take your voice up a couple of octaves for a single word is no easy feat.

      1. Honestly, I thought Robbie was the best actor there. To keep a straight face as everyone else was losing it.

  29. Based on the the club’s current form, we don’t deserve to win and you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think we could ever win another game this season. We are a travesty of a club right now and someone has to take responsibility for that and that person is usually the manager. Wenger should be placed on ‘gardening leave ‘ as the British say and let Steve Bould finish out the season.
    Top 4 was to goal to get back to the Champions League at the beginning of the season. Wenger would say that he didn’t want to back into the Champion’s League by winning the Europa League as a knock on Man U. Top 4 is done, UEFA Europa League will be over after Thursday and a a top 10 finish is in our cards if we’re very lucky and as Dirty Harry used to say: do we feel lucky (punk)? Nope. Luck, weather, refereeing decisions, Mike Dean, VAR, lasagna, scheduling, a Serie A moratorium will have nothing to do with our demise .
    Who would have thought our future now rest upon Josh Kroenke and his fact finding mission at the Emirates.

  30. AC Milan maybe well rested due to the unfortunate circumstance of the cardiac arrest of Davide Astori but Arsenal are also well rested after their Sunday park scrimmage with Brighton so Wenger should be ashamed of himself if that is offered as an excuse.

  31. Kaius

    Here, let me explain to the people getting offended about ‘speech patterns’. People judge people based on all sorts of things. Not all of this is wrong or abhorrent. It is how we draw our behavioral cues. A less articulate form of speech is usually looked upon less favourably. It is not necessarily a sign of low intelligence. But when not, it is often a sign of laziness (or maybe defiance, which can sometimes be good, but only in certain contexts) Let’s not pretend to be holier than anyone else about this. This subconscious ‘calculation’ process exists, and there’s a reason this exists. It is not snobbery nor prejudice. It would be if that were the reason for me to dismiss their views.

    As I said to you before, I was mocking claude rather than Aftv by saying if I was more like the guys on Aftv he’d not only (make an effort to) understand what I was saying but even fight my corner since he’s so quick to take up the cudgels on their behalf. So yeah, that blud and fam stuff is distinctive (that’s the only place I hear it). I used it as representative of Aftv because that’s how they make their unintelligent proclamations. Not that their proclamations are unintelligent because of it. You drew the latter conclusion because you want to be outraged on Aftv’s behalf or just triumph by saying how morally repugnant I am.

    I don’t feel like a victim. I’m just p***ed off at an attempt to misrepresent me to put me on the defensive because Aftv is Claude’s holy cow. (Maybe I just offended my fellow hindus)

    1. It’s the world we live in now, Shard. A lot of people are ready to pounce on any perceived pejorative towards anyone who is not white or male, but happily broadcast pejoratives toward white males because that’s not hypocritical at all. But, as I found out last week, even that is no guarantee that someone won’t try to get on their high horse and cast aspersions at you for having unconscious bias, like when I poked fun at Jack Wilshere’s inability to spell basic words in a message to the fans after the City game. I did that, as you might have guessed, because I’m a bourgeois pig who enjoys bathing in the sweat of the toiling masses and the parading my privileged educational background, tsk tsk (Squealer would be proud of that spin btw).

      There are throngs of people out there right now who try to enhance their standing in society by trying way too hard to appear super-duper tolerant, a show of sainthood meant to impress the masses with their progressive chops. I see droves of middle age white men hammering this particular anvil and I’m quite confident a large percentage of these souls are doing it because they like getting applauded for it. Interestingly, all this aggressive “tolerance” is leading to an environment where we can’t actually talk to each other anymore because any disagreement or trying to add nuance becomes “you hate equality” and trying to argue too much will get you internet shamed. The only correct answer is to scream louder about how tolerant you are and tolerate even fewer competing views in so doing. So, I’m here talking about football instead. Sorry for the long tangent there.

      1. Tolerance is disingenuous. Completely. I very much dislike the hypocrisy of leftist ‘inclusivity’, etc. People who occupy the left, especially on college campuses, tend to be exclusive, especially when it comes to thought. For the most part, the academy is as orthodox as fundamentalist religion in terms of what you can and can’t say (and the punishments thereof).

        The way forward is simply to admit we should be intolerant of a**holes who defend the classism you displayed in your comments about Jack Wilshere, and that Shard displayed in his comments about AFTV, despite the latter’s Shakespearean “protest too much” gymnastics above.

        Yes, unlike most of the left, I actually believe in right and wrong (as a given rather than a construct, which puts me on the right, strangely), and the framing of your disappointment with Wilshere’s spelling was indicative of a snobbery that ensures people of a certain education and class are ‘kept in their place’ for artificial rather than real reasons. That is, your sentiments are part and parcel of attitudes that devalue people based on accidence rather than substance, where substance is the inherent value of an idea or a human being–a value concept associated with both right and left politics, but more often with the right (ironically, in the case of your comments, and the right generally).

        I hate that we live in a society that validates the truth of an idea based on the identity of the speaker rather than or in recourse of reason. This applies to white people as much as it does black people; as much to educated as uneducated. Including information about race or class in a debate–as you do, as Shard does–only reinforces the very problems you decry.

        1. Aah Nuance.. Or is it ‘protest too much about protest too much’ gymnastics? (So I’m supposed to take the accusations thrown at me because it just proves them right if I make an effort to explain/counter it. Wonderful)

          All that’s a requirement is a basic human respect. Beyond that, everything is fair game. Like any tool it can be used maliciously. Must it be malicious when used? No, and while it is damaging when used maliciously (especially with power backing it) it is also damaging to look at any identification/judgment as malicious. Maybe more so because it is more frequently not malicious. People often just see what they are tuned to seeing I guess. If you’re looking for signs of discrimination, you’ll find them around every corner. Maybe that’s because the world is terrible, or maybe your ideas just don’t make sense.

          “I hate that we live in a society that validates the truth of an idea based on the identity of the speaker rather than or in recourse of reason.”

          Talk about tilting at windmills. You say this as if this is something that we disagree on. As I said before, it would be snobbery if I discounted the ideas propounded because they came from someone who speaks a certain way. I reject the idea that it is snobbery to make fun of someone, regardless of what it is for. Clothes, speech, ideas, even stereotypes -whether lived up to or studiously avoided- what else is apparently in poor taste to you?

          And as it turns out, people apparently can’t, or don’t want to understand that I was using Aftv and a ‘speech pattern’ I associate with them to mock Claude’s penchant for being their guardian because he doesn’t even care what is said about them, just wants to jump in and defend their honour (He said I blamed them for our slump, which I did not.)

          You say I was being classist. See, what does this mean? It means I identify based on class and discriminate on it? Except all I did was identified an entity based on a distinctive form of speech. You brought class and discrimination into it . What makes you think I come from a different class than the person I’m supposed to be degrading here? Is it because I ‘speak’ differently? Because you know I’m from a different part of the world? Surely that involves some unconscious calculations on your part you a**hole… Yeah I know that’s silly.

          Where nuance is concerned, I think it is generally better to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if calling someone an a**hole makes you feel better about yourself then I guess that’s your thing.

          1. That’s it in a nutshell, too many people these days would rather hold true to their lofty proclamations and moral superiority than display basic human decency and kindness to those who don’t share their views.

            It’s almost like we were taught better than that as children, and what about, you know, ACTUAL tolerance of others?

        2. You are very well spoken and I appreciated the bit about the accidence vs. substance and the first sentence of the third paragraph is spot on.

          I do think you contradict yourself though; on the one hand you say leftist fake inclusivity is awful (it is) but on the other you say we should be intolerant of people who defend classism. That’s all well and good intentioned I’m sure, but implementation of that totally depends on your definition of what classism is, doesn’t it? If you lower the bar enough, it would give you just cause to be intolerant of anyone you perceive as classist, and maybe you’d begin to confuse the pure ideological virtue with plain dislike for someone, or maybe you’d begin to look for classist ideology everywhere, making sure you find it. That sounds a lot like an Inquisition to me: anything you deem heresy becomes heresy. That’s exactly the vibe I got from your reaction to the Wilshere thing, an “Aha, Gotcha!” moment. And that kind of thought police work is contrary to decent human behavior in my book.

          1. I’m not inclined to be persuaded by arguments of decency made by people unable to show that very decency to others. Benefit of the doubt where it concerns signs of education, literacy, or haste, was not offered by you to Wilshere, nor by Shard to the caricatures he made.

          2. Yeah sorry, you don’t get to claim moral superiority about just having a conversation about football when your own outrage fills the space. Shard wanted to make fun of some outlets he didn’t like and mark his superiority, he got called out for that. He could have just as easily let it slide and jsut accept it. Now you’re both adding to the tangent and the noise, you’re not decreasing it.

          3. In that case Shard could just have let it go and agreed to disagree or something, but he didn’t. Instead he’s plastering the board with outrage that some didn’t like his digs of people that basically he didn’t agree with and come off rather dumb sometimes. And now we have thread after thread full of noise because everyone wants to be right, have the last word and can’t let go.

        3. Also, with the spelling thing about Wilshere from Doc. Honestly, I had read the Wilshere message but hadn’t noticed any poor spelling. I didn’t go back and look again. So yeah, I don’t know why he brought it up. There may have been some minor errors.

          But he only brought it up as an aside.

          Now people’s spelling is something we shouldn’t even mention because some ‘evil’ people and systems refuse to look at less privileged, less educated as their equals and use this to keep them down?

          Aren’t you just playing their game by accepting their premise? Is it really such an unreasonable thing to suggest that better spelling is a better thing? When it was quite apparently meant only with humour and that too in passing rather than a demand for this stupid uneducated Wilshere chap to just shut up and go back to his shack? (Even if he weren’t a rich footballer this wouldn’t be true)

          See I think that’s a completely unnecessary and disproportionate response. Actually its akin to a preemptive attack on a problem that exists, but elsewhere and in nowhere near its imagined potency. But you’re so afraid of letting it come close that you’d rather destroy anyone who in your opinion threatens to bring this to your borders.

  32. I can see the headlines already: “Wenger turns down PSG interest to honor his contract and to take Arsenal to the new level”

    1. Feel so bad for Unai Emery though. The guy won three UEFA Cups in a row. I’d take him at Arsenal in a heartbeat.

  33. 538 has us at 60% to win the tie, and yet all arsenal fans, myself included, are convinced we’ll get battered…

    1. “Battered” is putting it mildly. Right now, AC Milan are not an offensive juggernaut but they’ve scored the goals they need to be effective in the defense first Serie A. Kind of like Brighton. If Gattuso starts Kalinic then Arsenal could get a draw. If Kalinic starts and manages to score then Arsenal will have a long afternoon because Kalinic is shite. If Cutrone starts and this is my hope then Arsenal could lose by 2 or 3 goals because he is becoming our go to striker.
      I will be rooting for AC Milan because our Chinese investors are banking on the CL money should they win it all to help with their debt repayment.
      I will be rooting for AC Milan because Wenger needs another nail in his coffin of a season.

  34. I like AFTV. I also miss when Chris would come on because he always offered up thoughtful analyses. Some did not like him because he was not colorful, negative or bombastic enough.

  35. Bunburyist

    Right, so in denying us the same benefit of the doubt that you think we denied others, aren’t you becoming the very monster you hate so much?

    1. You don’t understand, and evidence of your misunderstanding generally is apparent in your responses to Claude above. What I hate is a notion of logic based on ethos. What you and Doc are requesting is a decency you won’t offer to others. For me to be a hyprocite, according to your logic, there would need to be evidence that I was dismissing your claims based on your race or class. I’m certain you won’t provide any, because I haven’t addressed you or Doc according to your identity positions…but I would love for you to assume I did so, only because it would validate the very position you detest, which is the one that resembles a witch hunter.

      1. To make fun of something is not to demean it. To identify a characteristic is not participating in its exploitation. Even if some would engineer that and use that to do the demeaning and degrading. It’s not a difficult concept.

        Yes, you didn’t discriminate against me on any class/other identity basis. (I said it’s silly) What I’m saying is that neither did I against anyone else. But you insist I did because my ‘speech patterns’, ie how I think or write, is different to what you deem acceptable or within the bounds of decency.

        Don’t you see the problem with that? You insist I’m being discriminatory to someone’s class because you associate(d) speech with class. I didn’t. At the same time, I am not shy of saying that there is a thing as being ‘well-spoken’ and that this generates a certain response. Yes it is essential to also look beyond this response, but just because some don’t, and some others use it to justify their discriminatory tendencies or practices, doesn’t make the response wrong or undesirable.

        What Doc and I are SAYING is that you are not better than us (nor more concerned about people’s rights), just like Wilshere’s poor spelling or an Aftv chap’s speech doesn’t make us any better than them. You insist we think we are better than them (and thereby making you better than us). It’s exhausting and unnecessary, if you could let go of your anger/pride for a minute and look at it how it is intended.

  36. Ok Bunburyist.. Let me ask you. If you wanted to mock Claude and his Aftv love in because he was willfully misunderstanding what you said, and wanted to say something like “you just love Aftv and you refuse to understand me while you stand up for all of Aftv, so maybe I should just be like them” What shorthand would you use for it?

    If I said maybe if I were more Wenger out, but that would convey the message that this centres around an AKB/WOB thing.
    Maybe if I would make videos of myself to post online. True enough but doesn’t make sense on a blog (and remember the idea is to mock Claude for wilfully misunderstanding what I said and his love for Aftv)
    Maybe if I said I had more extreme views (but claude had already decided that that was a term, regardless of context, that he wouldn’t view with any seriousness)
    So I used a couple of words (Blud and Fam) that I have only ever heard on Aftv as representative of them. (And the thing is, people understood who I meant because guess what, it is associated with them)

    How did we get from there to I have no decency or human regard for this chap who speaks on Aftv because he speaks a certain way and he and his class are beneath me?

  37. woah chill guys, there’s still a europa cup to win, and then we can get back to oogling at ozil touch. It’s a wonder what a few weeks with the head in the sand can do!

  38. Bunburyist, you know what bud, it’s not worth it to me. You’re right, I’m wrong, I should be better. Shake hands, move on.

  39. Reports coming out that Jochim Low is the preferred candidate to take over this summer, after the WC. I suppose if you make Mesut Ozil the best paid player on the team, it’s only natural to hire a coach he’s gonna like.

    1. Not sure we want a guy who sticks his hand down his pants while on the sideline and then sniffs it afterwards. Or does the Mary Catherine Gallagher thing from SNL where he puts his hands in his pits and then smells them.

      Managing Germany and managing a club in the EPL is two very different beasts. Maybe he’s capable enough to learn on the fly. I doubt it.

      But we are, by all accounts, adopting a “German” model. I presume that means having at least 5 U-21 players on the first team , which I don’t mind. But surely there are other German coaches we can draft.

      1. I don’t think the Löw reports are serious. He might be on the list journalists have been briefed with, but there are virtually no reports here in Germany. The feeling is he’s going to stay bar catastrophic failure at the WC. Besides that his club career was very unremarkable.

        1. The ESPN story has a single source who says we’ve reached out to Löw. Nothing substantial.

          They also have another source “close to a senior player” who comes up with more dressing-room stuff:

          “A lot of the players don’t want Wenger… they are not happy with his tactics… The players don’t want any particular manager to come in – some speak about Thierry Henry, Carlo Ancelotti and even Rafa Benitez – but they are really frustrated.”

          Thursday night’s gonna be fun.

  40. Low’s been reported in the past, so to me there is a lot of smoke around that and you’d think he’d be interested as well. Yeah, it’s very different to manage a club than at international level, but at this point I think we could do worse.

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