Bellerin and the reality of authenticity

by imothyt

I heard Hector Bellerin’s comments about Arsenal Fan TV and my first reaction was “meh.” This is just the world we live in now.

In case you missed it, speaking to Oxford Union Bellerin said: “It’s so wrong for someone who claims to be a fan and their success is fed off a failure. How can that be a fan? It’s just people hustling, trying to make money their way, which everyone is entitled to do.

For us players it doesn’t affect us. If they want to have fun with it then have fun. When you grow you realise what is important to you to take.  If a coach comes to me and says you’ve done something bad I’m going to take that advice. If someone from ArsenalFanTV says this guy needs to do this or that I’m not going to listen to him.

They’re entitled to their opinion and the way they want to do it. If people find it funny then go watch it.”

The debate over these comments has already broken in several rather predictable ways.

First are the people who say he’s trying to shut the fans up. He literally says the opposite but somehow these days whenever someone criticizes people who are paid to be critical the first reaction is to respond by claiming you have a right to speak and to also say that the (opponent?) is trying to shut down your free speech rights.

Second, his criticism is spot on. AFTV is full of people who are now YouTube celebrities. The big names literally get paid to be critical. Again, there’s nothing wrong with this. The football landscape is littered with humans who are paid to be critical. Congratulations to them on finding a good skive.

Third there’s the predictable outrage over his comment that he doesn’t listen to the fan’s criticism of him and only listens to the coaches. They trot out the lines like “do you even know how much we spend watching you season after season” which is intended to add cache to their opinions via how many games they attend and how much wad they spend at them. Because that spending translates to “loyalty” (true fanness) or as Mr. DT (one of the big stars of AFTV) puts it “I’ll say this one last time for all of you that don’t listen, @HectorBellerin has a right to an opinion, but he don’t have a right to question a fans loyalty to the club, he’s one of the reasons why we are so poor defensively, but I’m still there every week, supporting for 90mins”.

There is so much to unpack there… the first is the idea that he can have an opinion but only the opinions that Mr. DT approves, specifically that you’re not allowed to criticize a fan’s loyalty to the club. But oddly, Mr. DT himself doesn’t mind questioning fan’s loyalty. For example, just two days ago he excommunicated all fans who sent death threats on twitter/instagram saying that they aren’t real fans. That seems fair to me but he also questions the loyalty of fans who “don’t go to every game” and wonders whether they should have access to cup final tickets if they haven’t gone to all the other Carabao Cup matches.

Mr. DT isn’t questioning the loyalty of fans who criticize players for a living but rather the loyalty of fans judged by how many games they go to. The more games, the more obscure games, that a fan attends, the more they deserve reciprocity of their loyalty from the club in the form of first crack at tickets. This may seem like a reasonable demand by Mr. DT, but there is no doubt that what he’s doing here is questioning these fans loyalty. He makes that clear in his follow-up tweet.

“The real fans who struggle” are better than the other season ticket holders who Mr. DT has decided don’t go to Carabao Cup games because they “can’t be bothered.” Fans who go all the time > Fans who wish they could go all the time > Fans who go when they could be bothered and so on. I’m sure there are literally hundreds of layers to this onion.

I’m not actually criticizing Mr. DT. The reality is that there’s a hierarchy of “true” fans among the members of any group. That’s how it has always been and will always be. In punk circles, “real punks” don’t listen to or like new punk music, real punks are over 50 (can I say 45 yet?), real punks go to certain shows and have been to certain very memorable shows or seen certain acts live (uhhh, I saw Flipper), real punks dress and act in a certain way, have specific tattoos, or share very specific similar life stories.

And you know what I’ve learned? I immediately distrust anyone who tries to tell me what real anything is. What’s real punk? Fuck you. You’re punker than me? That’s true. You’re like a tiny icon of punkness that you can sell at Hot Topic for $10. What’s a real Arsenal supporter? You’re more Arsenal than me? Fuck you too.

Inadvertently and not too subtly Young Hector has lifted the curtain on modernity. Players these days are not like the players were 30 years ago. The club, football, the world has changed. Identity and what it means to be Arsenal or punk or anything, has also radically changed. Those identities have become fractured into multitudes and then reified and commodified.

When the world was small, the fractures within any identity were smaller but not insignificant. There were East Coast punks, West Coast punks, London punks, and we all used to argue over authenticity: who was the first? In the 90s through the 2000s Arsenal was still a largely localized identity, though it was spreading rapidly to the continent (through the players like Henry, Vieira, Bergkamp) and out into Africa and beyond. But there were still fractures, the “realest” fans who went to all the away games, the EIE crowd, the middle-class prawn sandwich eaters, and so on. Identity has never been monolithic.

But now Arsenal twitter has 13 million followers from all over the globe and “Arsenal” is a complicated morass of identities. There are Yankee Gooners, Tollington Gooners, Swiss Ramblers, Positive Gooners (who are really really negative!), WOBS, AKBS, Mumbai Gooners, Shanghai Gooners, and literally millions of other identities gathered around this weird red and white shield with a cannon on it (facing the wrong way). Arsenal’s fundamental Arsenalness has become so diluted that as far as I can tell there are either 13 million true Arsenal supporters or there are no true Arsenal supporters.

That’s why Bellerin’s criticism stings so. Because when we all get to say that we are the real Coke, we are the real Arsenal supporters, authenticity becomes a commodity. Mr. DT trades in that commodity: he signals to all of his followers his authentic fanness by being from London, by going to all the games he can, and then cashes in on that authenticity through the medium of YouTube. I cash in on my authenticity: I’ve been following for 17 years, I don’t take any advertisements, and I only get paid to write “whatever I want”.

Arsenal cash in on authenticity as well, selling the idea of “our history and values”. Beyond just the replica shirts from the 1970s possibly the biggest project to show how “real” Arsenal are was the “Arsenalization” of the stadium. The Emirates Stadium is wonderfully new, with its large concourses, and many places to eat food or make a bet, but it wasn’t Highbury. It had no history – the steps weren’t worn down from millions of feet, the stadium didn’t sigh with the ghosts of a hundred years of fans and players. What represented Arsenal for 100 years was ripped out of our hands and sold to the upper middle class. What we got in return was a very large place where the club could sell many seats and make loads of money off matchday merchandise. It wasn’t Arsenal, so it had to be made authentic through facade. Out came the paintings, the statues, the blurbs on nearly every wall, reminding us of our history while the real history was a block away.

We live in a society where authenticity is so valuable, so powerful, that even the facade of authenticity is is all it takes to sell people nearly anything. Look at what Trump and the Brexiters have done. There is nothing real to these people’s claims but they signal outward that they are the ones who “speak the truth” that they are the ones who are “bringing real Britain back” or “Making America Great Again”. Trump is lauded as a “straight shooter” who “tells it like it is” but who is objectively the most untruthful politician we have ever seen in the United States. A man who calls fake news reliable and reliable news fake. And people love it.

And it’s all comedy – or it will be comedy in a few years when we have had some time and distance from what is now very tragic. Think about Bellerin for a minute. Is he authentically Arsenal? Won’t he be going back to Barcelona as soon as they make him an offer? And here’s this kid from Catalan, telling other people how to be “real Arsenal”.

It all feels like bullshit to me. Like the whole thing is just one big skive that everyone is trying to pull over on one another. Get your real Arsenal over at this web site! We have the true Doner kabobs over here! Real punk is going to this show over here!

If capitalism is an ouroboros – a snake that eats itself – then surely authenticity is the very tail.

As for who Bellerin should listen to about his performances? He’s kind of right that he shouldn’t listen to the fans. 13 million different bits of advice is probably too much. But it would be nice if his manager and coaches could tell him to stay on his feet. This thing he does where he runs around kicking people like a kid mashing all the buttons on Street Fighter is not going to get him his dream move back to Barcelona.

That’s my real opinion.

Qq

61 comments

  1. Evening, very nice and measured post. But yay, I’m first (just kidding , needed to get that out first).

    Being a Swedish fan and not going to that very many games I sort get the wrong end of the stick quite often. I’m not a real fan as I rarely go to games.

    Though I’ve been following the Arse for a number of years and see quite a few games through sports channels as well as follow Arsenal Sweden.

    Now does this make me a real fan or am I just a twat😀. I think I am, however the Arse has taken over from my local team, AIK, and your blog and others makes it possible to follow Arsenal even though your not born in Islington.

  2. What a fantastic post!

    There are several regulars on Arsenal Fan TV and the ones who have the biggest agendas are the ones feeling the burn from Hector’s comments. They can’t stand someone picking apart their business model because it stings to hear someone else point out the fact that here are a few Arsenal fans (I raise my hat to DT, Claude, Robbie and everyone who goes to all the games), who are getting paid (not Robbie paying his regulars, but from sponsors, youtube, promotions, etc) for their opinions, which are mostly critical no matter the situation. And their income literally depends on the hits and views they get. And it is clear as daylight that views skyrocket when we lose. I genuinely believe that all these AFTV celebrities want Arsenal to win every game but the stark reality is that they generate more traffic when we lose and that delivers more money to their pockets.

    Hector probably didn’t intend to question their loyalty but rather question how they make money from Arsenal’s woes when they claim to be die hard fans. But he shouldn’t worry about someone like DT who changes his tunes every other day, has a pinned tweet calling Wilshere ‘my captain’ which is so disrespectful to Per and Laurent, keeps calling for the likes of Iwobi and Bellerin, both 22 years old, to be dropped but keeps giving the likes of Xhaka (who he sucked up to at some party) a free pass and slated Iwobi for his party-going mistake when the player he claims to be his captain has had a worse disciplinary record.

    But keep up the good work. 7amkickoff, Arseblog and the few remaining sensible blogs continue to be reassuring voices of reason in the Arsenal universe. One dominated by extreme opinions on both ends of the scale. So hats off for putting in the hard work to present insightful content and data-driven analysis.

  3. “And you know what I’ve learned? I immediately distrust anyone who tries to tell me what real anything is.”

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

    “You made what could be called an appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms or flaws of your argument.
    In this form of faulty reasoning one’s belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn’t apply to a supposedly ‘true’ example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one’s argument.

    Example: Angus declares that Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge, to which Lachlan points out that he is a Scotsman and puts sugar on his porridge. Furious, like a true Scot, Angus yells that no true Scotsman sugars his porridge.”

    1. Not that YOU made that logical fallacy, of course. Rather, your instinct to distrust anyone who tells you who is and isn’t “real” is spot on.

  4. The less we talk about this Bellerin controversy the better. Discussing about it doesn’t help any way in preparing me for another Europa season coming ahead :(:( Guess the #WengerOut crowd got bored after all…

  5. Ah, the afterglow of postmodernity. Baudrillard and Jameson are all over this.

    Coincidentally, I was just reflecting on the ouroboros after watching an episode of (the amazing) “Altered Carbon,” which uses one in the opening credits.

      1. If you like Altered Carbon, you’ll love Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie. One of the best sci-fi books I’ve read in a long while.

        1. Second that. Blew my socks off.

          Shout out also for Too Like the Lightning by Ada Palmer for those philosophically inclined

    3. Yeah… if you’re looking for something to do in the absence of Arsenal football this FA Cup weekend, Altered Carbon is crazy good. Too bad we couldn’t “resleeve” some reinforcements from Arsenal teams past to reinforce our squad. Would love to have that ourobouros tattoo!

      BTW, the only * real * Arsenal fans are the ones who get up Saturday mornings in North America at 7 AM . Everyone knows that!

  7. This is an aside – didn’t someone on this site suggest Sarri as a potential successor to Wenger? The site of him smoking a cigarette on the sideline yesterday made me laugh. #OldSchool I guess he could always bum a smoke off Wilshere and Ozil.

  8. Arsenal Fan TV regulars are passionate gooners who manage — at considerable personal expense and inconvenience, I’d imagine — to travel to nearly all Arsenal games. That, for me, is commendable. Yes, some are looking to spin-off and monetise that, but so what? It doesn’t make them any less perceptive about Arsenal, or their opinions any less valid. Unbox Therapy, one of my favourite tech YouTubers, has just hit 10m subscribers. More power to you if you can crack that.

    I like AFTV, even if I find them (taken as a whole) to be too reactive and mercurial sometimes. Too much great when we win, crap when we lose. Although, funny enough, most opinion there was consistent with a lot here that the Spurs game was the most one-sided one-nil they can remember for sometime.

    Graham and Mo in particular are very thoughtful and analytical guys. And yes, DT and Troopz often are too. It’s easy to be snobby about AFTV because of the rawness, but cut through the heat, rawness and Jamaican-infused patois, and more often than not they talk a lot of sense. That, for me, is the barometer of their authenticity, whether they can spot something that would probably escape an average viewer. And often they do.

    In a forum awash with opinions (football support), we criticise DT for voicing one about Bellerin’s comments. Speaking of which, it’s Hector’s prerogative who he listens to or not, but he’d be a better player listening not just to his manager, but to thoughtful fans. Fans who, you know, big him up and sing his name when they’re in the ground.

    He hasn’t made it yet, despite his celebrity and the visibility that comes with being a first-team regular at one of the world’s Top 10 best supported football clubs. His comments (and the way he wears his celebrity is a clue) suggest that he thinks he has. And that he just doesn’t get it.

    1. I’m mostly with you Claude (I find most of the regulars on AFTV likable, though I’m utterly uninterested in the “celebrity” status of, e.g., DT and Troopz).

      But, while I think Hector could probably do with a bit more humility, self-awareness, and self-criticism, and that plenty of fans have very perceptive thoughts on Arsenal to offer, I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to get offended by Hector’s suggestion that he only listens to coaches’, as opposed to media/fans’, criticisms. Surely this is just being professional: caring what your bosses and coworkers think, and blocking out other voices, especially because, for every thoughtful criticism of, e.g., Hector’s performances, there’s bound to be 10 out there that are brainless.

      1. I’m not really dinging Bellerin about coaches being the ones who improve players. My point mainly is about his lecturing a part of fan base about how they should support Arsenal.

        Key quote >> “Yes, some are looking to spin-off and monetise that, but so what? It doesn’t make them any less perceptive about Arsenal, or their opinions any less valid.”

        and go on to say….

        quote>> “it’s Hector’s prerogative who he listens to or not, but he’d be a better player listening not just to his manager, but to thoughtful fans”.

        That’s not an argument about fans being substitute coaches. Heck, people on here routinely slam Wenger for what he DOES NOT drill into his team, coordinated pressing being an example. If a segment of the stadium gets on a player’s back for something they’re not doing well or not doing at all, oh they WILL know. Clearly, under Mertesacker’s direction and by Bellerin’s own admission, the players discussed the fans vocal dissatisfaction with their slump last year, much of it unfairly and unfortunately directed at Bellerin in one specific incident. Now he’s singing a different tune.

        Fans have a go at players for not tracking back for example. In a world as electronically connected as ours, it’s impossible to imagine that players don’t listen — not as Tom suggested — for coaching tips, but to sensible fan feedback.

        This was not a call for coaching advice.

        Quote >> “but he’d be a better player listening not just to his manager, but to thoughtful fans.

        But to repeat, Bellerin pronouncing on fans he doesn’t regard as kosher is what really gets my goat. Perhaps he wants to perform only in from of the coaching staff on match days.

  9. There’s no one way to support a club, whether you go to all the games, or have never seen one. And all fans should be united against Bellerin’s nonsensical attempts to marginalise a section — ostensibly because they make money off of Arsenal misfortune. It’s nonsensical reasoning (!!!??).

    I’m a Caribbean-born British citizen, who has since moved back to the Caribbean and hardly goes to games (except on rare occasions that I find myself in London). I spend most of my support energy on a site (this one) that is largely for American gooners (because it is one of the best gooner websites around and has for me, a very thoughtful commentariat that I can relate to). I sometimes come across comment that can seem, to someone who was a regular attendee of games, slightly detached and wonkish. But I don’t think that any gooner is less of a fan than I am.

    That, you know, they don’t know real rock and roll. AFTV, 7am, Arseblog, Online Gooner, ACLF… are all very different, sometimes shambolically assembled parts of the big gooner family. There’s so much room for disagreement. I’d hope, probably against hope, that Hector’s comments isn’t one of those.

    1. I don’t watch Arsenal fan TV and I’m not going to start, not because I don’t respect them or don’t like them – I have absolutely no idea either way – I just don’t have time for that particular rabbit hole. I agree 100% with Claude (and Bellerin)’s point that these fan TV guys have a right to their opinion and a right to broadcast and monetise it, and I agree 100% with Bellerin when he says he has no obligation to listen. I disagree that anybody is saying anything much about anyone else’s authenticity or status as a “real” supporter. I disagree that anyone is being marginalised, least of all the guys with the thousands of YouTube followers.

      I do believe that some people commit more time, money and effort to the club, and that the club should do their best to make sure those people have some kind of reward for that. For example, Tim should have a free Platinum membership at the very least. To the extent that that is what Mr DT is saying, I agree with him, too.

  10. So I’m scratching my head and thinking how listening to ‘thoughtful’ fans will make a player better. More important, I’d like to know what constitute a thoughtful fan

    1. Maybe you should come here more often to understand what a thoughtful fan is. Or read Tim’s by the numbers. Or Doc. Or TeeSong. Or Pfo. Or Jack. Or Shard. Or just go in search of a contribution from Graham or Mo on AFTV. Or read Tim Stillman, if you’re still unsure.

      Of course, Bellerin’s coaches are better equipped to improve him, but fans can and do help. Last season the fans told Bellerin in no uncertain terms that he was falling short. Per channeled that energy into dressing room meetings, and the players’ intensity improved. I think that that was the right approach.

      1. I would just like to say that I’ve been here longer than any of those guys and to not be referenced in that list, frankly, hurts a little.

          1. Appreciate that, although I wasn’t entirely (or at all) serious. I’ve been here ages, comment occasionally, but almost never get involved in the conversations.

            I do love this place.

          1. Shard, we disagree on 95% of things (and I’m being conservative 😉 ), but I don’t have to see eye to eye with you to believe that you don’t try to bring thoughtfulness and analytical insight to your posts.

            There’s pub talk (we was shite, mate level analysis), and then there’s virtually all of the regulars on a site like this.

            That said, I’ve reverted to disagreeing with you, as normal. see below.

  11. I’m a massive fan of this blog and Arseblog. In fact, they’re the only 2 arsenal blogs I read because the views of the authors aren’t biased and makes perfect sense. Claude I’ve always read your comments and well articulated arguments on here and I usually agree with you. I must say I totally disagree with you wanting bellerin to take advice of fans. Fans are very emotional and say a lot of things based on how they feel. I personally feel like what bellerin said was accurate. He should only listen to the opinions of his manager and coaching staff.

  12. I enjoyed AFTV for a while and hats off to those regulars for going to great and extreme lengths to support the club but the novelty has worn off for me. No one is forcing anyone to follow the Arsenal and spend money doing so. We choose to do so for our own reasons.

    And I still rate Bellerin but he needs to play a helluva lot better football.

  13. Bellerin should listen to fans’ opinion to improve his game is probably the most outlandish statement one can make about what proffesional footballer should be doing.

    It’s almost as ridiculous as Pep Guardiola telling Southampton’s Bertrand that he should be more attack minded because of his immense talent and ability.

    1. Pep. Naturally. Care to share pics of your bedroom walls? 😉

      You’re missing the point, Tom. PFo, upthread, brought some nuance.

    1. I’m sure you area great looking bloke, tom, But I’d never try to displace Pep in your affections.

      1. Hey, I might have a slight Guardiola bias but at least I can still bring myself to call him out on his bs.

        You on the other hand couldn’t even condemn Ramsey for not paying attention to the point of missing the moment of Arsenal conceding .
        Talk about a man crush . How big is the Ramsey poster on the walls of your bedroom?

        1. It’s huge. I can’t hide my crush for a man who scores goals for Arsenal AND cares about animals AND once hugged a penguin AND was photographed with a lemur on his back.

          I rest my case.

  15. I experienced the “you’re not a true fan” appx twelve years ago when I started going to AFC Wimbledon (the reformed Wimbledon AFC) while they were still a non league club. I enjoyed it so much I eventually bought a season ticket (to go alongside my Emirates one) and found myself sitting next to a guy (now deceased) who had been supporting AFCW since 1963, exactly the season I’d began going to Highbury.
    He accused me of being a wagon jumper, which I suppose was quite true, but eventually accepted me to the extent that he encouraged me in the chants & songs.
    Anyway, I can see how some folk consider themselves ‘true Gooners’ and best of luck with that is all I can say. I know Tim manages to make the trip when funds permit, and others are just armchair fans while I myself have moved out of London and am now retired from actively supporting Arsenal, but still have a lot of time for FanTV’s Robbie Lyle, although not so much for the muppets he surrounds himself with.

  16. Who cares?
    Seriously, who cares what a footballer thinks or says about anything except what happens on the pitch? That’s not their job. That’s not their area of expertise. Very few have the training and education for rigorous or original thought on nonfootball matters, why should I pay attention to them over the person sitting next to me at the bar? Because they’re famous? Because they can kick a ball? Because it jibes with my own opinions?

    In a similar vein, why would a footballer pay attention to fan opinion about how he should play? Because they have a lot of ‘followers’? Because they know how to use final cut pro and upload the results to youtube? Because they’re entertaining?

    Let’s pretend aftv boob #1 has a point. Don’t forget there are boobs 2 through 100. How is the poor footballer to know which one he ahould pay attention to? Not to mention the 13 million other gooners on Twitter. Maybe there’s a 140 character gem among the dross and abuse. But why would a footballer wade through the junk in search of this mythical treasure when there is a team of people at hand whose job is to provide advice. People who have risen to this position based on their track record?

    Don’t get me wrong. I respect the opinions of the commentators on this site, but I read it for fun. If I were a professional footballer I would focus on professional opinion. In my real job I don’t scan twitter for ideas on how to treat my patients. I don’t care what Wenger thinks anymore than I care what Oprah thinks. I read peer reviewed papers and talk to trusted mentors.

    2. Bellerin’s Q&A at the Oxford Union was boring as hell. I only watched it because a bunch of people over at Arseblog News were talking about how thoughtful and intelligent he came across about football, politics, life, etc.

      No.

      He’s fine, nice, etc., but he’s a 22-year-old kid with a ton of money and popularity who, not surprisingly, has a fairly superficial understanding of the world. I was embarrassed for the Oxford Union, but I guess their standards for discourse aren’t what I would have expected.

      1. I thought the same. Look, I’ve hosted panels at OU, and they like to go unconventional. Understandable, but sometimes they misfire. It’d have been interesting to get some Per Mertesacker or Petr Cech insights. But, you know, Millennial. I’m sure the the messaging would not have been about fans who are acceptable, and fans who are not.

        Again, the point of contention (at least for me) isn’t whether Bellerin should take coaching tips from fans. I don’t see anyone arguing that he should.

        1. Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t know that about the Oxford Union, so that makes a little more sense, I suppose.

          I was scratching my head thinking, ‘who would really care what Bellerin had to say about anything other than football?’ (And even then, it wasn’t revelatory.)

    3. Sometimes Dr Duh, it is important, and can be interesting and educational, to step out from a bubble of expertise and look at an issue from another angle. It can lead to some insight based on your own knowledge. So yeah, just because someone is famous should not mean their views are treated as important. But just because someone isn’t an expert in a field should not be enough to completely disregard their views either.

      Btw, Claude, I agree with you, but I don’t think Bellerin meant he would NEVER listen to fans. There is a feedback mechanism built in, at least of approval or disapproval, and if he came across an interesting take from a fan on twitter or something I’m sure he’d think about it. I gather what he meant is all these people going on social media to specifically offer him advise are wasting their time because frankly, he has no reason to value their opinion as highly as they do themselves.

  17. Folks, wanted to let you know that I won’t be publishing anything until Wednesday next week. I’m taking a break and working on other stuff. You won’t be able to publish comments here after tomorrow so I guess you’ll have to go somewhere else.

    Or take a break yourself!

  19. Bellerin now says, on twitter, that he was mis-reported >> “At no point have I criticised Arsenal fan base. I have nothing but respect for all the support we get through ups & downs. I just voiced my opinion about a platform. Guess some people just can’t take opinions about themselves.”

    That second sentence echoes my own feelings.

  20. Was just gonna say he sounded like those music fans who are better than us cause they have the band’s first 45.

  21. Personally, I love what Bellerin said. I’m sure much of that has to do with the fact that I have a low opinion of the Aftv crowd and their ‘business model’ (mostly poorly informed opinion too actually if I’m honest)

    But I also love that a player can say this when he knows it will be (mis)represented as a player talking down to ‘fans’.

    I remember when Peter Hill-Wood (a plain talker, even if he was an aristocratic snoot) called out the AST for their self important negative nonsense in the middle of the season, and this was reported as him calling Arsenal fans idiots. Well, AST self identify as Arsenal fans, and they can be whatever kind of fans they want. But the reason they were called out was not because of their identity as fans, but their identity as AST.

    Which is the same as what Bellerin has done with AFTV. He’s not questioned each of their personal worth as fans. They may all very well be Arsenal fans, but that is not the only identity they have. Bellerin’s comments have brought out the variance between these two, sometimes overlapping, but distinct, identities, as Arsenal fans and as AFTV ‘celeb’. And that hits right at the heart of AFTV’s image. No wonder they hate it. Maybe because they don’t like noticing the variance themselves, let alone losing out on money because of it.

    1. You think he thought through THOSE comments? I don’t.

      He’s actually fallen in my estimation — particularly since his weak attempt at a walk back. At best, he expressed himself in a terribly immature fashion. I thought he was smarter that that. Clearly being fluently bilingual is not to be confused with being deep or analytical.

      You don’t have to like AFTV (and many don’t) to find the labelling of Robbie and co as bad fans as awful on his part. The logic silly too. How, exactly, does AFTV profit off Arsenal’s misfortune? Arsenal, despite its problems and its evident decline as a footballing force, is overall a successful club, on and off the field. Bellerin, when you take his comments to their logical conclusion, also benefits from Arsenal’s misfortunes. However well or badly he plays he earns six figures a week.

      My problem with AFTV is not only that they can be a tad too downbeat when we lose, they can also be a tad too giddy when we win. So the stick of profiting from misfortune is a silly one to beat them with. I don’t know what the Oxford Union was doing, entertaining this sophomoric twaddle.

      1. I think Bellerin said what he HAS thought about AFTV based upon a sample of their videos. And yes, I think he knew that it would be twisted but didn’t care. That wasn’t a walkback by the way. He never insulted Arsenal fans in the first place. He refused to accept the Aftv’s implicit claims that 1. they represent Arsenal fans and 2. have no other motive or agenda.

        I don’t follow Aftv. I occasionally come upon some clips. As far as I can tell, they have regulars who delight in their celebrity, and it’s plain to see they are playing a role. They obviously gain more fame/notoriety when they put out more extreme views. Typically, though as you suggest not exclusively, these more famous views are negative ones. (Which is why I come across them) I think it is true that they profit off of negativity, and that means it’s better for them if Arsenal fail. (To a degree. If Arsenal weren’t a generally successful club, they wouldn’t have a global audience at all)

        That logic for Bellerin profiting from Arsenal’s failures doesn’t hold up. Bellerin earns whatever he does, regardless of results. Unless you consider bonus payments, increased sponsorships that come from footballing success (celebrity has its own monetary success but doesn’t replace this entirely) , and of course the effect it has on his own stock for future contracts. So no, he doesn’t profit from Arsenal’s failures in any way.

        1. Bless you Shard, you professional contrarian. Appreciate the honesty in admitting that youre barely familiar with AFTV (though it didn’t stop you pressing on). Perhaps you should dip more deeply into it. Your comment about “extreme views” tells me you don’t really watch them at all. Can you cite one “extreme” view?

          Their views on Arsene Wenger for example, are completely indistinguishable from Tim’s and many of the commenters here. They just express it in more salty language. In fact, I think that Tim’s far more trenchant in his criticism of Wenger. Robbie sometimes tried to inject balance, offering counter-arguments to some of the overly emotional views. The guy is a passionate gooner like the rest of us, and didn’t deserve that nonsense from Bellerin.

          This is what Bellerin said:

          “I think it’s so wrong for someone that claims to be a fan and their success is fed of a failure, so how can that be a fan? So I think they’re just people hustling trying to make money their way.”

          Robbie and his circle started something out of his rabid support for Arsenal. So now that taken off to such an extent that he’s realised that he can make some money off of it, Bellerin questions his bona fides as a fan?

          I think that his remarks are contemptible. Worse, he’s making a terrible argument.

          Our very own Tim Todd has talked about trying to make this blog work as a financially viable proposition. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with monetising these gigs.

          1. Nope. And Bellerin says as much. The fact that this monetisation, this celebrity, can and (in his and my opinion) does affect their outlook (at least publicly) isn’t in bad taste. It’s about time someone said it and whether you agree with Bellerin’s view or not, it has merit. Aftv represent themselves, not Arsenal fans. Aftv and its talking heads do have something to gain from Arsenal’s failures.

            Why would it stop me from pressing on? At what point would it be enough knowledge to have an opinion? Would I have to personally meet Robbie and pump him for information? Sheesh.

            Aftv only make it into my world with their ridiculously OTT negativity, though occasionally someone will have a pop at Spurs or Mourinho after a good result. That suggests to me that they get more views from such OTT stuff. (I am one of those views after all)

            It doesn’t matter whether Tim makes harsher points. Tim has credibility with me, not simply because of a lack of monetisation, though that is one of the factors that can affect your views. I don’t see authenticity in Aftv, I see ‘reality TV’ and I’m sorry this offends you and your sense of unity among fans, but I don’t think their fandom should protect them from having their roles as minor celebrities held up against the light.

            Also on Robbie. Yes he’s a passionate Arsenal fan. He’s also a guy who runs a youtube channel about Arsenal. Robbie can be both. But can he always be both and are these two roles never in conflict? Bellerin sees the conflict and brings it out. And you revert to Robbie being only the former and take offense.

            Extend that logic, then why would you want to know how much politicians earn from what lobbies? All of them are self avowed patriots and many have a record to suggest this. Why would it matter if they earn a few million from the NRA or big pharma or oil? Why would it affect their voting record? Surely they are only patriots and no harm in making money off of being one?

            Tldr; Aftv consists of Arsenal fans, but AFTV =/= Arsenal fans

          2. What “extreme” opinions, I asked. You didn’t/couldn’t answer.

            I think it matters whether you watch — or in your case don’t watch — AFTV. It’d stop you making the ridiculous assertion that their view are “extreme”.

            The opinions there are very mainstream. Heck, commenters here are harder on Arsenal.

            And Tim has more credibility being hadrer on Arsenal than Robbie because why, again… bizarre argument.

          3. 1. I should have said extreme manner of their views instead of my ONE USE of the word extreme. What I was trying to say was that they put out an overall sense of extreme negativity about the club (Which depends not just on the message, but also how it is delivered, and how often. As a media person you know this already)

            2. I think they do this mainly to catch eyeballs (they caught mine, and Bellerin’s through this) Also, instead of offering honest opinions they are playing their reality tv celeb characters. Which is why Tim has more credibility.

            3. Bellerin posited that they profit from Arsenal’s failures. I agree with this because that is how they come across, and the very fact that I know who DT is and what he looks like is down to his negative views and obnoxious manner of delivering them. Negativity sells and I am sure their views will be higher when Arsenal do badly (or when they can find something to complain about otherwise) That is how the majority of the people would view them! This is a factual point that you can argue if you wish.

            4. You object to this only because you like Aftv. Bellerin said nothing wrong. Not logically , and not morally, and you are yet to answer why you insist on equating Robbie and co. the Aftv guys with Robbie and co. the Arsenal fans, when it is possible to likely that they themselves see the two things as separate (or seek to justify one through the other).

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